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Discussion on Founder - 9th or 10th time - help
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 - 6:02 pm:
Fox is a TWH 13 yo - on 7/19 I taped her at 1099 - she is cresty and has fat pads around her tail. She was tested for Insulin Resistance and was positive - My vet read about research on Thryo-l using increased dosage along with strick diet and exercise - exercise was out as she had just foundered. Since 7/19 she has been receiving 5 feedings a day - 2 pounds per feeding - of grass hay - and one feeding - at night of 5 pounds of hay. She has been receiving 4 tsps of thyro-l on 1/4 cup beet pulp and 1/4 cup sweet feed - She taped at 1016 on 9/9 - She still has the crest and fat pads -
Yesterday I thought she was walking ouchy - today she was in a moderate founder stance - I managed to get a styrofoam pad on the right foot - but even with the pad on she would not lift her left leg.
The only thing that is different in her care is that I started her on 1 scoop of Accel on 9/19. Usually her founders are associated with alfalfa - would it be possible for the alfalfa base in the Accel to be enough to cause founder? If not - I'm totally mystified.
I'm about to the end of my rope with her - She has spent so much of her life in pain - I just don't know which way to go from here - Any help on this would be appreciated.
The study Dr Brown gave me was based on AM J Vet Res 2005;66:1032-1031 - if that helps any.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 9:03 am:
Hi, Cheryl I have the same problem with my easy keepers, and have finally managed to get this under control. Finally no founder this year, and they are relatively sound, except an abscess. The key for me, and all horses are different, was remove all sweet feed and alfalfa. My insulin resistant horse can't graze grass for long in the spring or fall. His problem seems to be clover. Another thing which has helped alot is getting the toes back and a good trim. Is she grazing at all? I now use safechoice pellets instead of sweet feed. It is very hard to manage, and you have to figure out the triggers, they all seem to have different ones. Some people also suggest soaking the hay to remove excess sugar, I have done that in the past with acute episodes.The cresty neck and fat lumps don't seem to leave, even when in good weight, but they soften, you can almost tell when the crest starts getting hard it's time do something, different.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 9:04 am:
Cheryl you do not say anything about pasture access of this horse, is there any and what type pasture? Also how many degrees of rotation are there in the foot, the thickness of the sole at the toe, and how soft is it. Often in difficult to control factors this is an important cause of recurrent pain.
DrO
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 10:00 am:
There has been no pasture since June - or the very first of July. The pasture is down to bare ground - the hay is all she has been getting.
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 10:25 am:
Sorry Dr. O - I totally blanked on the rest of your questions. She has not been x-rayed since 01 - at that time the rotation was minimal - around 2-3 degrees - She foundered once in ND - zero Vets - the first time she foundered here I gave all three horses a wheel barrow of hay that I swept out of the truck after bringing in hay - really stupid. Other than the first three bouts - she has pulled out of the founder after being put on the styrofoam blocks in just a couple days.
She seems to have plenty of sole - I did notice a bulge at her toe when I put the pad on her yesterday - I can take pictures but I have tried and tried to get them small enough to attach and haven't been able to do so. I guess I need to bite the bullet and pay for x-rays again.
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 10:27 am:
Cheryl, even bare ground pasture can get these horses, especially after a frost or a rain. As Dr.O. said the foot can play a big part. I was very surprised when I had my horse x-rayed,that his rotation was very minimal, but his toes were extremely long. It has been a work in progress (his feet) but what a difference with a new farrier and a good trim. Hadn't I had x-rays I would have thought his rotation was way worse, considering the pain he was in. Good luck with your horse as this can be very trying, but possible to deal with. Maybe if you could post some pics of her feet and body, Dr.O. could give you some opinions on her trim?
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 10:43 am:
Thanks, Diane - The farrier will be here Tuesday so I guess I need to try to get the Vet out here on Monday to do x-rays - The poor horse has been so hungry for the past couple months I feel horrible -- she actually ripped a chunk off a paper bag and ate it. I thought she was just going to dump it -
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 11:13 am:
Cheryl, I know the feeling my horses think they are starved also. My vet calls insulin resistance, the too fat,eats too much, not enough exercise synDrOme. He is right I suppose and he helps me from feeling sorry for them. It is awful nice to see them sound again. Once my "insulin resistant" horse was put back in exercise, his blood levels went normal. He can graze now except certain times of the year and I only have to watch him for a few weeks. I couldn't exercise my horse till he became sound, but once he did we started slowly and worked up, I could tell a huge difference in him. If I couldn't ride him I ran him around the pasture. Hopefully your horse will recover to this point.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 - 5:00 pm:
From your description of condition it does not sound like too little feed, what you rate the overall condition at? It is not the size of the image that matters so much as it is the size of the file, these are not the same thing. For help with this see, News & Help » Uploading Images and Files Into a Posting. I should have referred you earlier to the article Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Founder & Laminitis an Overview. You will find much information there including information about your vets diagnoses.
DrO
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 7:21 am:
You have been sent 1 picture.
fox_0001.JPG
These pictures were sent with Picasa, from Google.
Try it out here: https://picasa.google.com/
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fox_0001.JPG
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 7:39 am:
Well - so much for that effort - it was suppose to be a picture of the x-ray - her right front is rotated about 30 degrees - the vet did not give the rotation on the left - just that it's not very bad - I will work with the picasa program some more and see if I can figure out how to load the pictures.
I would imagine Fox is about a 7 (maybe) on the scale - I cannot feel her ribs - The farrier will be here today - Will take some more pictures after he does the trim - or whatever he has to do.
Dr.O - what is the prognosis for 30 degrees rotation?
Thanks,
Cheryl
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 11:01 am:
Cheryl to post a pic from picasa, Click the pic, then export it to desktop. You will also probably have to resize it when you click export, I usually set it at 400-500 pixels. Then when you click upload on this site search desktop, click the file, and hit upload. Took me a good part of a day to figure it out, but it is very simple. If it says the pic is too big, you may have to downsize it more, but 400 pixels always works for me. Good Luck
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 12:01 pm:
I have found the degrees rotation for chronic conditions very misleading. Whereas 12 degrees rotation during an acute episode is very bad, these chronic cases often have significant remodeling of the wall at the toe that makes the rotation itself, as measured from the front wall, of little prognostic value. Instead the stability of the coffin bone, the distance the tip of the bone is from the ground, the thickness of the sole, and the angle the bottom of the coffin bone makes with the ground better indicators. You will find these discussed with images available in the Overview Article under the heading "Foot with remarkable rotation demonstrating painful, damaged areas".
DrO
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 2:42 pm:
Thanks Diane - I will go try that - Also a big thank you Dr. O - when the vet told me 30 degrees of rotation the bottom of my world DrOpped out. The farrier was just here - He put Natural Balance shoes with a pad and the impression material. Fox walked of sound - The farrier advised that I could start riding her at a walk - if she limps to hold off for a few days then try again - All in all he was very pleased with her condition - had come prepared to put the entire EDSS system on her - this method saved me $100 - which sure helped. I will now go try on the photos AGAIN -
Cheryl
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 3:02 pm:
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 3:03 pm:
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 3:17 pm:
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 3:19 pm:
Please ignore the house in the middle of her foot -  I meant to ask if riding her this soon is advisable - I don't want to do anything that would cause a set back.
Thanks,
Cheryl
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Member:
Juliem
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 4:57 pm:
I think her toes look way too long. Were she mine, I'd have the farrier out ASAP to shorten them. It's just my opinion, but I think that might aleviate some of the pain. I wonder if toes this long might even be causing some of the pain. Julie
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 27, 2006 - 5:07 pm:
Gosh Cheryl, from my untrained eye, I've seen way worse. From the x-rays anyway it looks like she has a long toe. My gelding went thru this and he is sound now and rideable, we never did special shoeing, just started getting the toe back. If you would like to see his x-rays and our year long saga, look under my post shoeing bruised feet in the problems following trimming and shoeing section. I'm sure Dr.O. will have some great advice for you. Good Luck
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 - 7:42 am:
Toes way too long and flared along with the coffin bone rotated and putting pressure on the solar corium. All contributing to your recurring pain. Diane is right there are many horses with radiographs worse than this that go on to do fine and be ridden. You may be able to correct this with good trimming techniques alone over the next 3 trimmings but if not there are special shoeing techniques. This is explained in the article in this topic.
DrO
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 19, 2006 - 12:19 pm:
Up date on Fox. Dr. Brown was out for a re-check - looked at the x-rays and said it was not a 30 degree rotation. Checked the shoes she has on and wants her to go to a flat pad on the next re-set. The Vet who was filling in for him when the x-rays were taken said she thought she should be put on a chromium supplementation. Dr. B disagrees - has not seen any evidence that chromium helps. (I hate when this happens) Fox has been on 4 tsp of Thyro-l since 7/19 - he said to start cutting her back - 2 tsp for 2 weeks then 1 tsp for a week. He feels her weight is good - I personally think she is still to heavy. Will try to post a current photo but after my initial success the files keep coming out too big
Dr. O - what is your opinion on the Chromium supplementation? Dr. Cosgrove indicated it would get rid of her crest and fat pads around her tail.
Thanks so much, Cheryl
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Member:
Ellen66
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Posted on Friday, Oct 20, 2006 - 12:20 am:
Cheryl, I would like to share some of my experiences on this subject.
I own a Paso Fino Mare with insulin resistance. She was the typical cresty type with a tendency for obesity, recurring borderline founder and slight colics.Once I found out what is wrong with her I totally took her off anything sugary and she is not allowed to graze at all except with a gazing muzzle for a limited time - since grasses can build up a lot of fructans ESPECIALLY is they are short and/or the weather is dry or cold. So she gets a grazing muzzle instead, limited intake of grass hay (apparently some grasshays can have a very high amount of sugars, too, maybe that happened to your horse?)and suppplements to ensure a proper amount of protein and minerals/vitamins. Handwalking and turnout with active companions. She was also started on Quiessence, a Magnesium Supplement, a month ago. She not only regained a normal bodyshape, but also lost her nervousness.
What I missed in the discussion about rotated coffinbones is a) that horses can very well be totally rehabilitated without shoes and a proper trim and b) that, part of a proper trim would be too look at more than just the toes and flare - we have to make sure the heels are not too high either - a high heel like the one on your horse will create pressure on the tip of the coffinbone whereas a shorter heel will take away some of that pressure as it changes the angle of how the foot "stands and lands".
Exercise - as soon as her feet have the right stance and are trimmed properly, movement is necessary to get the bloodflow and healing powers into this hoof, and it will use up some calories as well as changing the metabolism to the better....any movement is exercise, even if the horse has to stumble from one small pile of hay to the next. 24/7 turnout would be max, not in a field of course, preferably with other horses so there is more movement, too. Handwalking is exercise and good for bonding, and upping the exercise with improvement will only do good.
If you are interested at all in natural trimming, there are websites out there that have great info on founder rehab, here is one of my favourites https://www.barefoothorse.com/ ....my mare that used to have flat feet with just a bout a reversed sole bulging (low coffinbone) actually started to show concavity for the first time since I own her, after being trimmed that way for many months...
Cheers, Ellen
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Member:
Chole
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Posted on Friday, Oct 20, 2006 - 12:38 am:
I have only just picked up this thread and can say that Pergolide has made a big difference in my mare's health. She was diagnosed with Cushing's after suffering through bouts of laminitis, founder, colic, etc. We pulled her shoes, retired her and keep her toes rolled in front. Additionally, she has limited access to grazing on lush spring grass and any grass after a frost; no carrots a handful of grain and plenty of excercise at liberty with the encouragement of a lunge whip or long-lined to keep her moving and joints lubricated (she is coming 27). Wishing you the best of luck. Chole
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Oct 20, 2006 - 6:40 am:
Hello Ellen,
In our article on Founder Overview the first thing we tell folks to do is remove the shoes and it is true that most rotated horses can be rehabbed fine without shoes.
But I believe there are some cases that without a correctional shoe, correction takes longer and is more painful. An example would be horses with remarkable rotation, very thin soles, and painful solar impingement with the coffin bone. In these cases derotation without shoes increases the pull of the DDF and causes increased pressure on that painful spot. As a result correction goes slowly and with painful setbacks. If we really want to make this hard to care for barefoot throw in a low heel that cannot be lowered to rerotate the foot. About all you can do with barefoot is nipper and rasp the toe to a more normal relationship with the front of the coffin which in time will result in more upright heel growth but in the meantime you have increased pressure on the sole at the toe because you are removing weight bearing wall surface at the toe.
Some of these guys who are walking on eggshells can be returned to a fairly normal gait with a few hours work, and a normal foot within 8 months, and it is a joy to see. I have not been able to accomplish this with barefoot techniques in horses with this condition.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 20, 2006 - 7:49 am:
I have to agree with Dr.O., from my experience shoes have been neseacary for my horses that foundered, especially in the first year of rehab. One is barefoot now and doing well. The other one is coming out of them next month and I hope it goes well, it has been a year and a half with him.
I think the most important thing, is to determine the cause of the founder, and just as important is a correct trim. Getting the toes back and removing flare has been the key. I had to switch farriers and in 2 trims I can see a big difference. Cheryl if you could figure out how to post a pic of your horses feet I am sure Dr.O. could give you some advice. He helped me get my horses sound and rideable again!
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Friday, Oct 20, 2006 - 7:57 am:
Cheryl, I forgot to add, my vet seems to believe in chromium also. My horses are on a supplement called remission. It has chromium and magnesium in it.
Honestly I don't think it makes a difference, but they are doing so well, I leave them on it. Diet and exercise is the key. Those fat pads never go away sometimes, even when they are in a decent weight.
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Friday, Oct 20, 2006 - 9:01 am:
Chole - Fox was checked for Cushings - and she isn't - She is IR - which is my fault and have been working on it -
My farrier does the natural trim. He is hoping to have the NB shoes on her for the next trim and maybe the one following and then go back barefoot. The whole area is now a mucky mess from all the rain so Fox hasn't been exercised for the past week - I had just started riding her for 30 minutes of walk when the rain started. She has lost a little over 100 pounds since the middle of July when I started the starvation diet along with the high dosage of Thyro-l.
Diane I have absolutely no idea what is going on with uploading attachments. I did the first two that came through per your instructions. I've done exactly the same thing on the others - no luck - so will stop trying. I would probably put her body condition at a 6. Looking at the bottom of her hoof I really don't see how it would be possible to lower her heels. They look long to me too - always have - but they are even with her frog and they can't be taken lower than the frog - can they??? Her toes were too long when the x-rays were taken because it had been 8 weeks since her last trim - the next scheduled appointment was the day after the x-rays.
I will do my best to keep riding her through the winter and will hopefully be able to get another 100 pounds off her.
Thanks everyone for your help and suggestions - I really appreciate your time and effort.
Cheryl and plump Fox
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 21, 2006 - 8:25 am:
We have research on the use of chromium and magnesium in the article Horse Care » Equine Nutrition, Feeds, & Feeding » Minerals and Nutrition. Diane it is not true when you buy things of no value that you are not doing harm, at the very least to your pocketbook. But also the thought you can rely on something that is really not helping may lead to a delay in seeking proper treatment.
Cheryl, the upload attachment is working and I suspect your files are too large, for more on how to upload images see, News & Help » Uploading Images and Files Into a Posting.
DrO
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Member:
Scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 21, 2006 - 8:52 am:
Dr.O. I know about my pocketbook and supplements! I am on my last tub of remission (the chormium/mag)and have been slowly lowering the dose, I have seen no difference. I am going to remove this from their diet when it is gone. Then we will be down to just a joint supplement. I wish I had all the money I spent on supplements, I have FINALLY figured out diet & exercise is the key to my fat horses health. Thanks to you and my vet.
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Member:
Cheryl
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Posted on Saturday, Oct 21, 2006 - 8:58 am:
Dr. O - I have no doubt the upload attachment is working - but it is definitely beyond my computer capabilities - Not your fault - my bad -Cheryl
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