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  Discussion on Mare aborting ?
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 15, 2001 - 6:25 pm:

Dr O, my mare is 6mo along in her pregnancy and last Sun I knoticed her winking alittle. I thought maybe I was seeing things but then she let our donkey gelding mount her. That night when I went out to feed, I knoticed she was all wet with a thick clear goody discharge. I immediately called our vet, he suspects shes trying to abort. He checked and said her cervex was closed tight, that she wasnt in heat but her hormones were telling her she is. He then palpated her and was in there awhile and said the baby wasnt moving, his wife thought it was sleeping, he said it was possible. Then he said things just didnt feel right. That he would bet money it was dead. To watch her and he'll check her in a week. Well she would strain real bad to urinate, and this morning I knoticed it looked like she is making milk but tonight when I checked her it went down. She still is carring the baby and she isnt acting like she is in heat like she was. We live in south eastern Ohio and alot of mares lost foals to what they think is the caterpellars. I hate waiting a week to see whats happening and cant understand if he thought the foal is dead why didnt he give her something to pass it. I'm just curious, can this happen to a mare 6 mo along and still carry it to term or should I get my mind set on a dead foal? Any words of encouragement?
Mary

Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2001 - 6:30 am:

Thangs may be OK Mary, it is not uncommon for the foal to not be real active at this point. Concerning the reproductive loss synDrOme (the caterpillars are one of the theories) it did not involve mid-pregnancy abortions as a common feature. Your veterinarian was unsure of the foals condition so he wants to wait to gather more information. I think at this point a ultrasound to view the condition of the placenta, fluid around the foal and foal itself, particularly at the cervix, may yield useful information. For more on this see : Equine Diseases: Reproductive Diseases: Problems Keeping Mares Pregnant: Placentitis.
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Aug 19, 2001 - 9:54 am:

Thank you DrO for the incourageing words. She went out of heat on Wed and has been pretty clean since then, no discharge at all. There were a couple mornings she looked like her udder was a little puffy but then when we turned her out that evening it was back to normal, this morning no puffyness at all. We called the vet to scedule him to come out and check her as his instructions and told him she seems to be back to normal and his reply was well do you want to just wait and see what happens! We said Noooo we want you to come out and ultra sound her so we know exactly what we are deeling with. So he will be out tomorrow to do that. I wouldnt be so concerned but he did say that someting just didnt feel right. So I will keep ya posted on the outcome.
Thanks again
Mary

Posted on Monday, Aug 20, 2001 - 5:54 am:

If he would like more information on what to look for he should read, Transrectal Ultrasonography of the Placenta in Normal Mares and Mares with Pending Abortion: A Field Study by
Mats H.T. Troedsson, DVM, PhD et al. He will find it is the 1997 AAEP Convention Proceedings.

You can find a condensed report in the article Equine Diseases: Reproductive Diseases: Problems Keeping Mares Pregnant: Placentitis.
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Aug 22, 2001 - 9:51 pm:

Dr O, The vet came out yesturday and ultra sounded my mare. He said things looked real good! The foals heart beat was good and strong. He also said that he probably should have taken an ulta sound earlier, because there are alot of mares around here that lost there foals in the spring. A friend said his friends paint mare 5mo along lost it last month. Anyway our vet took blood and said this will tell alot, if the foals under any stress and why, and that we will go from there. The tests should be back friday.
I want to thatnk you once again for the words of encouragement and I will let you know what the tests results are.
Mary

Posted on Thursday, Aug 30, 2001 - 10:51 pm:

Dr O, just talked to the vet tonight about the results of the bloodwork. I was in a training session when he called and didnt have a pencil or paper to write stuff down. He said that she has very little estrogen, and that usually theres something wrong with the foal when this happens. He said something about foal liabiliy? He said he will give her a hormone shot in her 7th month and keep monitoring the foal but said out of 4 horses he has treated for this he was only able to save 1 foal. He isnt very hopeful. I asked him if I should give her her Rhino shot in the 7th month and he just to wait on that, that we might be wasting our money. He said the foal had a slow heart beat, but when he was doing the ultra sound he said everything looked good and the heart beat was the same as the mothers.
I was so dumbfounded and trying to remember everything that he was saying that I should of asked him why not do something now instead of the 7th month. Would you know why? This mare looks great, eats good runs around sometimes running and bucking so I have a hard time believeing something is wrong....but I guess it can be.
Do you think theres still some hope?
Mary

Posted on Friday, Aug 31, 2001 - 7:54 am:

I am sorry Mary, without examining the mare and the lab results I cannot comment directly on your case.

Generally by 5 months of pregnancy the majority of estrogens in the mares blood come from the fetoplacental tissue. That is the portion of the placenta that the fetus grew. They generally peak around the 7th month then decline till parturition occurs. It has been advocated that from the 6th month onward that the blood levels of the mare correlated with fetal viability. If they are low for that particular stage of pregnancy it MAY indicate problems with the fetus. Currently the low estrogens are believed to be the RESULT of decreased fetal viability NOT THE CAUSE of it.

Because of this and other reasons that follow, I do not give estrogens during pregnancy. Estrogen is considered contraindicted during pregnancy in my references. It can be used to promote abortions in most secies. It is also associated with fetal anomalies, suspresssion of fetal bone marrow, and inducing reduced or no lactation. Though none of these problems are specific for the horse and the foal may be well enough developed to avoid the anomalies I do not ever give pregnant mares estrogen nor have I seen the recommendation anywhere.

What needs to happen now is a reasonable guess made at the probable cause for decreased fetal viability and specific treatment for that problem instituted. Perhaps a second opinion from a veterinarian experienced with breeding and foaling horses, preferable a board certified theriogenologist, would be best.
DrO

Posted on Friday, Aug 31, 2001 - 9:39 am:

Thank you Dr O for responding so quickly. I have been reading and reading anything I can get my hands on, and have read also were giving the shot has caused mares to abort. Maybe thats why out of 4 mares they all aborted except 1. I think I will call him and tell him we will wait to see what happens and then find another vet with the qualifications you recomend to get a second opinion. I hope I dont sound stupid but what is fetal viability, and is estrogen shot and hormone shot the same thing?
Thanks again
Mary

Posted on Saturday, Sep 1, 2001 - 11:16 pm:

Dr O, I found a good vet Dr Pete Smith, he is supposed to be the best horse vet around other than taking he to Ohio State. We had to haul her to his clinic. I was amazed! HE palpated her and told us there was nothing there! Our mouths DrOpped I thought he was kidding. He said the uterus was the size of 4 of his fists and that would almost be normal and that it would take about 2 weeks to get that size after they foal. He then ultra sounded her and again clean as a wistle, he said almost like nothing was ever there! Now how can the other vet ultra sound her and say everything was fine and he was watching the heart beat 11 days ago? What could he possible have been watching? Could he have seen the mares heart beat in the ultra sound? I wouldnt think so. But the mare has been in our sight constantly so where did the baby go? OHHHH so many questions. He also checked out her stiff limping problem which the other vet said she tore a muscle in her left hind. He watched her move and said she had the corn cob walk and that it was her stifles. So he is keeping her and going to cut the tendons, saying that they get caught on the bone that sticks up on the stifle? He showed us this on a skeliton of a horse He said takes 2 weeks to heal and could use her fully in 1 month. Also the right front hoof shes been tender on that our vet said she graveld and it had blown out the through the coronary band, well it never blew out and pressure builds up in there so he plans on using like a dremmel tool and sliceing the hoof in half cleaning it out and then using some kind of epoxy or something to fill it in and bind it together. He said we can pick her up tomorrow! I feel so bad for this mare sounds like I neglected her but just went by what the local vet told us. This is probably why she was so ruff gaited and lately when I cantered her she would lunge forward and want to take off. She would run or canter like a rabbit. I plan on calling the local vet and asking him again about the ultra sound he took, and then try to figure out when she lost it and where is the body.
I know after I get her home i'll probably have more questions, so I hope I dont bug ya too much, but thanks again.
Mary

Posted on Sunday, Sep 2, 2001 - 8:40 am:

Hello Mary,
I have considered that it is possible he is talking about some other hormone than estrogen but nothing really makes sense to me. Progesterone is a hormone and more rationae but though available in an injectable form, the oral form is almost always used.

For more information on the problem the vet thinks is happening with your horse back legs see: Equine Diseases: Lameness: Problems of Muscles, Tendons, Ligaments, and Bones: Stifle Lock: Upward Fixation of the Patella.

Posted on Thursday, Sep 6, 2001 - 12:16 pm:

Hi Dr. O

Just curious, wouldn't a fetus' heart rate normally be much more rapid than that of its dam?

D.

Posted on Friday, Sep 7, 2001 - 7:03 am:

Yes early in pregnancy it is over a hundred then slowly declines to around 60 just before birth.
DrO
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