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Discussion on Surgery/infection/rehab
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 29, 2006 - 11:46 pm:
Dr. O.. I don't know where to start.. but my ''luck'' is continuing...
I weaned my colt this weekend, according to the farmers almanac.. Brought in his mom to the barn and had my 3 1/2 year old filly inside to baby-sit her.. The mare got out RAN to her colt.. my filly had a tantrum and kicked her hind hoof thru the tongue and groove stall wall .. After we got the mare settled,not knowing that the filly was in danger, we realized that she had cut an artery, Vet was out, * this all is happening at midnight * got the bleeding to stop stitched her heel bulb back together and flushed the remaining wound.. she could not stitch that back up.. she made a lovely walking like cast for her and we put her to bed.. Next morning the filly will not put weight on it.. I had noticed that she did not get up at all , all night.. after I made her get up to eat some and drink , she went right back down.. I took her to the local clinic mid day.. They flushed her to see if there was a hole and there was , so she went into surgery .. (( sorry for the non technical names)) the surgeon did the antibiotic flush and also put the camera in to see what damage was done..
She has severed her Deep Distal and flexor tendons.. he was able to stitch back the flexor ..
I was told I have several hurdles to go thru now.. the first is , is the infection all gone? She will be staying there of course.. and the surgeon felt good about this.. Second her rehab ?
My questions are.. How does a severed deep distal tendon repair? How long does this take ? And the crystal ball question 'could' she come back to a show career.. ???
The sewn back flexor tendon , does it heal like a torn one would??
When it is said pasture sound , does that mean the horse is still in pain.. ???
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 1:04 am:
Oh, Ann. I'm so sorry to hear this news. You need this like a hole in the head. What rotten luck. Life can really be unfair at times.
I truly hope your filly will come through this OK. I know you'll keep us updated as things progress.
Sending you my most concentrated best wishes for a successful recovery and rehab.
Take care
Sue
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Member:
Kathleen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 8:14 am:
Ann,
I'm sorry to hear about your filly. You try to do all the right things and it still happens. Hope she is OK. We'll be sending positive energy her way (and yours too). Good luck.
Kathleen
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 8:29 am:
Best of luck to you and your filly, Ann. There are several of us here that know just what you're going through.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 8:55 am:
Ann, sorry to hear about your filly's accident. Take it one day at a time, things will get better. These horses are all tougher than we give them credit for I think.
(((hugs)))
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 9:20 am:
Ann,
I am sorry to hear about your filly. The tendon does heal back like a torn tendon does, it sounds like you have already read information about this but if not see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Lower Limb » Tendon Lacerations, but the sharper the transection the less bruising and the better the prognosis. In general a severed flexor tendon is considered the end of a athletic career but we have had several foals that recovered very well with surgically transected superficial flexors for severe tendon contracture.
It is hard to damage the deep DF without also hurting the superficial DF is it truly just the deep that is effected?
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 9:44 am:
Dr. O I will ask today for more details.. as you know a Sunday evening called in, one wants to get back to the family.. Some how your words give me hope for at least a low level riding horse.. Not what was expected of her or planned..
Angie, Sara, Kathleen ,Sue thank you for your well wishes.. As we all know this was a hit below the belt..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 10:13 am:
Oh no, Ann - how terrible. You just never know where these blows are going to come from. I do wish you the very best outcome.
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Member:
Lilo
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 10:19 am:
I want to add good wishes and positive thoughts. Hoping for a good outcome,
Lilo
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 10:36 am:
I am so very sorry Ann, it IS a hit below the belt. Sending many positive healing thoughts and prayers to your filly, and strength to you as well.
Many ((( Hugs)))) to you Ann!!!
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Member:
Corinne
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 10:46 am:
Ann....so sorry to hear about the filly. My best wishes for a good outcome! Thoughts and prayers are with you all.
Take care,
Corinne
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 11:53 am:
Ann, I'm thinking of you and your filly . . . hoping for strength and hopefulness for you and healing for the filly. Your expertise with horses is growing, and I hope that next year, it can grow in different ways. This has been a tough year for you.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 1:09 pm:
Awww shucks, Ann, not again...you must be about ready for a padded hermetically sealed stall....for you.
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Member:
Pbauer
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 3:07 pm:
Ann,
Sorry about your filly... with God's help, I know you'll get through it.
In each trial there are lessons learned... distinctive qualities of character such as perseverance, understanding, and wisdom (not an exhaustive list by any means) that cannot be completely developed in our lives without them.
Sending you my thoughts and prayers!
As always...my best,
Tonya
P.S. I love the closing in each of your posts.
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Member:
Djws
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 3:35 pm:
Ann,
When it rains, it pours. You have had your own private storm this year, haven't you?
I hope your filly will recover with no problems.
Read through Sara's current thread concerning Libby (mare just had suspensory flexor tendon surgery). I think there is an abundance of information/advice/articles/support to be found there.
If our healing thoughts/prayers, etc., have helped Libby, know your filly will be receiving the same.
DO stay on top of the infection...because of my colt (Beau), I am extremely paranoid concerning that problem.
Will be thinking of (and praying for) you both.
DJ
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 6:08 pm:
More strength and good wishes to you from here.
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 7:31 pm:
Oh Ann!! When it rains, it pours, that's for sure. Keep up your wonderful attitude and know that we are all pulling for you!
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Member:
5691
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Posted on Monday, Oct 30, 2006 - 11:32 pm:
Oh my gosh Ann!!
There is not enough good dark chocolate or red wine to help ease your troubles...
Keeping you, your filly and Libby in my thoughts and prayers..
Debra
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2006 - 7:49 am:
Ann, I'm adding my best wishes for a positive outcome for your filly! What a tough blow for you and I'm sorry to hear of your continued troubles.
Wishing you all the best!
Fran
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2006 - 1:13 pm:
Ann, really endorse Debra's excellent suggestion re the red wine and dark chocolate. Consumed together, it's a sure fire way to lift one's spirits!
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 31, 2006 - 7:25 pm:
All righty I now have a better understanding, I think, of what is going on with my filly.. She had severed completely the deep digital flexor tendon and he was able to sew that back together.. As far as he could see the superficial was not injured,the cut was just below the insertion, nor any other structures. All tho he could not tell if the superficial had been strained by the kick from his place in the sheath.. ( am I making since?) He was able to close the sheath and the external wound as well..
Today they did another antibiotic injection and took blood counts.. I am unclear by this, but was told that the 'counts' were not alarming and they would be doing another antibiotic injection in 48 hours..
She was fine with her cast, but today they duct taped it back on , cus they will be doing another injection, and she was not very happy with it.. this mare IS sassy, I am sure a hair or something was out of place .. She was stomping it, not good .. and was starting to bite at it.. I told the vets about this..
Sassy Pants is her nick name.. that being said.. I read thru your articles about sedatives.. and see you don't really recommend them i.e.: reserpine , fluphenazine.. and the side effects do have me worried.. BUT for this mare to heal is going to be on her being quiet and controlled.. HA! Sassy Pants?..
So I ask, besides all the stall tricks, dbl bagging hay etc.. do you recommend anything to help keep her quiet.. I realize this is going to be a very long year..
And another question, do we have age on our side re healing? I mean she is still growing, so all the growing juices are still flowing 
Thanks All for the well wishes and chocolate / wine ideas.. I now can keep food down once again, so will try them out..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 9:23 am:
We have an article on stall resting horses and the subsequent behavioral problems at Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Stall Resting Horses. If the management and drug recommendations in the article fail I would consider the use of fluphenazine.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 10:03 am:
Thanks Dr. O.. I had looked up the site.. and well, many more In your sedative articles you don't have Promazine listed.. Is it the same as Acepromazine? If we have to resort to this kind of drug therapy, is it recommended we do blood work for possible liver problems? If so how often?
Also with your vast history of injuries etc. Have you seen such an injury return to work?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 11:29 am:
This is a photo of Danni taken right before training.. and her latest growth spurt!
She does not have spots.. she is pure Hanoverian
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 1, 2006 - 11:41 am:
Beautiful, Ann.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 2, 2006 - 7:09 am:
Promazine granules have been irregularly available lately (check with Fort Dodge) Ann so you are more likely to be using acepromazine as addressed in that article. There are very similar drugs though the promazine may have had a longer effect.
In healthy horses with no clinical signs associated with or history of liver compromise, I don't feel the need to check the liver prior to use. Though liver associated problems with Ace use is common in dogs and cats, I have not seen any such reports with horses. I suspect it is the larger volume of dilution in the horse while you wait for the defective liver to clear the drug is the reason.
Ann I have never had just a DDF laceration and still wonder how it is possible to transect this without also transecting the SDF. So from a personal experience point of view I am boating in new waters. What do your veterinarians say?
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 2, 2006 - 10:28 am:
Procedure R rear tendon sheath arthroscopy
RDVM Macon
______________________________________________________________
The patient was anesthetized and placed in LLR. The R rear limb was clipped and prepared for aseptic technique from the coronary band to the proximal aspect of MTIII. The R rear tendon sheath was distended with 30 mls of sterile saline. An arthroscope portal was made with a #15 blade 1 cm distal to the proximal aspect of the tendon sheath. The arthroscope was placed into the sheath and directed distad. Blood accumulation was removed through the laceration in the pastern region. The deep digital flexor was completely transected. The frayed edges were debrided to normal tissue. The distal sesamoidean ligaments were examained and appeared normal. The surface of the laceration was debrided with sharp debridement. The deep digital flexor was apposed with 2 locking-loop sutures of 1 PDS. The tendon sheath was apposed with a simple continuous of 0 PDS. The skin was apposed with an intradermal of 2-0 PDS, and simple interruptes of the same in the skin. A total of 10 liters of sterile fluid were used in the lavage. Five hundred milligrams of Amikacin was left behind in the sheath. The limb was bandaged and a heel elevated bandage cast applied.
Tom Yarbrough, DVM
Diplomate ACVS
I will again ask about the Superficial ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 7:15 am:
I got it, the tendon was cut below the level of the upper pastern, so this was below the insertion of the SDF where the DDF is no longer protected there. Your first post suggested to me several tendons were involved making me think she damaged them above the fetlock and my mind could not get past that.
My earlier comments on prognosis still apply. We have seen adult horses completely transect the tendon in this location that remained just pasture sound but we have done DDF tenotomy's in foals at this site that came working sound. What does the surgeon give as a prognosis?
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 10:01 am:
Ahhh the written word and the unknowledgeable writer..
You know I was wondering about the foals young surgery thus why I was asking if age is on our side and her still growing..
The surgeon is not giving me any prognosis at this point.. my feeling is he wants to make sure we get thru the infection first.. So far the blood levels are ''not alarming'' and normally with these levels they would not be doing any more injections at the site.. BUT I am the 5% barn owner and have just rotten luck.. It can't hurt to do the antibiotic injection one more time can it..? Just to give me / her adder insurance??
My feelings are a roller coaster now.. the cost of rehabbing her hit hard yesterday.,.. At first I was morning the lost of a possible FEI mount, now I worry about the costs.. I know Sara understands these feelings..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 7:25 pm:
So how high should i hang the dbl hay net.. ? I am thinking high enough that she has to put her head slightly up to reach for it.. not at shoulder level...
what do you think.. ?
I have a friend that said she was given Acepromazine in a paste... apple flavor.. have you heard of it.. and will it keep her calm 24/7???
Looks like i will be able to bring her home tomorrow... they are going to do one more antibiotic injection on her first, * this without me informing em of the 5% curse* I am suppose to change her bandage daily... all tho my home vet said if there is not much weepage that i can get by every other day..
I am scared to death.. .. what if i don't get her bandage on correctly.. worse yet... what if i can't get the Kensey (sp) splint on correctly or even on... I watched the techs do it ,, it appeared difficult and she was sadated.. !!!!!!!
I don't mind telling you all , I am very worried this is to big for me..
Any encouraging words or tips on how to do this.. ?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 9:19 pm:
Ann, I think you'll surprise yourself. You WILL find out exactly how capable and ingenius you are!
Without going into great detail, I have been stuck with a yearling who needed care he wasn't about to put up with a couple times now. I had to do what I had to do and we ended up getting it done. Both of us were in one piece too! Actually, I'd say we got some serious training in during this time because he eventually learned what I was doing wasn't killing him and over a few days, he stopped fighting me.
I suspect your mare will put up a fight to begin with (you're new doing it to her and like you mentioned, she's not "cooperative") so have someone (or two or three) with you to start. Ask your vet and DrO about giving her a little "extra" sedation when you're doing her cares. I don't know if that's allowable or not.
I honestly belive once she realizes the routine (and she's back home), I think it'll only get easier. You'll learn and she'll learn and before you know it, you won't need to do it anymore
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Nov 3, 2006 - 10:04 pm:
Kim, thank you..
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Member:
Kathleen
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 9:29 am:
Ann,
Ditto Kim. You'll come through for her and she for you. Looks like Yogi has another mare to watch over. I'll let him know (if he doesn't know already) that he needs to add Sassy Pants to his care herd. He is a powerful healer and he has enough to give to Libby and Sassy Pants (and more if needed), he's that kinda guy.
Good luck and positive thoughts from us humans as well.
Kathleen
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Member:
Savage
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 2:05 pm:
Ann, don't panic ok? stay calm. I have been in scary situations where I was thinking I couldn't do all of it alone. I came up with some clever ideas to help me get through it, maybe I can find some for you
Does she "totally" trust you? or is she a bit goosey?
what does that splint look like? I did a google and didn't find anything under that spelling.
Idea - As for giving any shots that might be necessary and she fusses over it, you can try putting her in front of her food and then give the shot ( This worked very well with mine especially if I needed to do penicillin over a course of several days, eating took 50% of his attention away and things were a breeze) I gave him these shots in his butt, and after each shot I used a black magic marker to circle that area so I wouldn't use it again. etc. When done I added carrots to his feeder and told him he was "Sooooo Very Brave!"
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 6:25 pm:
Phewww.. went and picked up my girl.. after my lesson on how to.. egads.. what a process, but the good thing is that after her stitches are out,next week, i can use a basic pillow standing wrap on her to soften the splint.. Linda I think its called a Kemsey or something like that.. there is a M in it..
I also got to talk to the surgeon Dr. O and he was very positive for a riding career out come ..IF she will rehab quietly and IF there is not a lot of scar tissue.. big IF's I know.. He said that we do have youth on our side.. that younger ones don't form scar tissue as fast as the older horses do..
The clinic did one more antibiotic injection today, and said that her blood levels were looking even better then 48 hours ago.. She is on 70ml of Chloramphenicol three times a day for 21 days.. I will wear gloves. Bute one gram twice a day for 7 days then cut it in 1/2 .. Gastrogard 1/2 tube for 10 days.. and Liquid acepromazine orally 2ml three times a day.. and to change her bandage everyday till the stitches are removed..
So here goes the roller coaster .. today after getting her settled i am feeling much better.. of course there is always tomorrow..
*** I asked a tech that works there is she would come help me.. SHE IS..!!~ so i am feeling much better right now..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 6:33 pm:
That is great news, Ann!!! Is she still stall walking, or has that subsided at all? Also great news that the tech is going to help you! It'll ease your mind, even though we all know you are more than capable
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 4, 2006 - 7:50 pm:
Aileen, yes it does feel good to think good news for a change.. ahh the roller coaster ride..
She is still stall walking, but not a nervous walk, its more like I AM HOME I AM HOME, I hope this will calm down once she is used to the routine again..
I just gave her the Chloramphenicol, man that is nasty stuff or so she says.. She knew what time it was and did not want me to halter her.. this is a first for us.. She will get a lot of attention other then meds, so that will change soon..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Savage
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 5, 2006 - 2:50 pm:
Ann I looked up the Kimsey Splint on the net, that is a pretty interesting device that does a lot of good. Learn something new everyday with these kids.
I am so happy to hear that the tech will come and help you with things, bless her heart.
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Monday, Nov 6, 2006 - 10:30 am:
Awesome news about the vet tech coming Ann! I was hoping they wouldn't just send you guys home without you at least demonstrating applying this splint!
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Nov 6, 2006 - 7:51 pm:
Well the vet tech has been a true blessing.. she is as sweet as they come and very helpful right now.. I figure once we get her out of the bandages for the external wound i will start doing her up myself..
Danni is trying and I guess that is all I can ask of her... the meds are really doing her in... she has a hard time eating afterwards for hours.. and unfortunately I have to give them to her 4 times a day including the ulcerguard/Ace..  today I started flushing her mouth out with soaked up peppermints... a mouth wash... she won't eat anything from hand after the dose... so I thought... lets get that bad taste out.... it kind of works... but getting her to take it .. is almost as bad as the fight for the antibiotic... maybe with a few more times she will know the difference and welcome her mouth wash..
She is so tall and well can get so much taller when I am dosing her ..
She stands in a corner with her head down pawing the ground or banging the wall with her front hoofs.. the taste is just that bad.. It breaks my heart..
Please Please.. this soon shall pass..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted with spots..
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Nov 6, 2006 - 8:06 pm:
How are you doing, Ann? And how is your filly doing? I have been at a show all weekend and am just catching up.
Re: the haynets, if you haven't figured this out already, I always hang them high enough so that when they are empty they won't hand down low enough for the horse to get a foot caught in them. (With the hay net doubled there is less chance of a foot getting caught anyway.)
Our vet gave me bute poweder that is apple flavored and my gelding and older mare that occassionaly need some bute for aches and pains, will just eat it when I put it on top of a little grain. However, when Libby was home she wouldn't touch it. When the apple flavored bute ran out the vet gave me some peppermint flavored bute, which Libby ate with no problem, but the gelding wouldn't touch! When all else fails, just mix the powder with a little apple sauce or molasses and give it to her either on top of grain or in a syringe.
Their is a lot of info on the Kimsey splint if you do a google or yahoo search for Kimsey splint.
I'm so glad the tech is coming out to help you! that is great! Probably after awhile you won't need her help, but I know you'll be grateful for help and moral support at first.
Best of luck with her. Keep me posted on how you two are doing.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Monday, Nov 6, 2006 - 8:43 pm:
Hi Ann
Sorry this is a bit of a delayed response but my email wasn't working for some reason.
When Warwick came home in December with his cast on and had to be on stall rest, I gave him Ace in powder form initially to keep him quiet. However after just 2 days I stopped as he seemed quite content. I moved him to my neighbor's barn so that he could have an end stall which looked directly out on her boarder horses in their paddocks. I also kept a haynet full all the time and had to bed his stall with straw. He settled into this situation very quickly and stayed that way for 6 weeks before I could take him back home and into a small paddock.
My "regular" vet also stopped by the barn once a day to check him as well. She's awesome and didn't even charge me for her daily visits as said he was on her route anyway. (I held a wine and cheese party for her and her clinic staff after the damn cast finally came off to thank them all.)
The cast was on for around 3 weeks if I remember correctly. I had to monitor his temperature twice daily and ensure that the cast wasn't rubbing and that there was no smell. I put elastoplast bandaging around the top of the cast to ensure no bedding or hay could get inside and changed that daily. I also had to take him out of the stall twice each day, turn him around in the aisle and put him directly back in so that I could ensure he wasn't favoring the bad leg and was standing properly in the cast.
I don't know if that helps you at all as your situation with an actual splint sounds quite different. In my case a splint was never a proposition as Warwick was placed in the cast during surgery and recasted midway through his recuperation period so the surgeon could doublecheck the surgical site.
Having to change the bandaging and reapplying the splint daily is a whole other scenario than what I had to do. I don't envy you right now. What was the reason for not using a cast as opposed to a splint?
Thinking of you and sending you all my best wishes,
Sue
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Nov 6, 2006 - 10:29 pm:
Dr. O , I am no longer getting HA sent to my private email???? I checked my profile nothing has changed.
Sue .. Thank you so much .. Its good to hear about how others have dealt with this.. I have to put the elastic con on the top and bottom of the splint as well.. I can't wait for the external wound to heal as this is a major pain to take off / re wrap and put the splint back on..
She was in a cast right after the surgery.. but they had to do the antibiotic injections every 48 hours.. it was too difficult to try to duct tape the cast back on .. So the splint..
I have been giving her 2 cc of liquid ace, that is not the hard stuff to give her.. its all the other meds.. But the peppermint wash is helping her some.. I hope after she settles in more i will have to give her less and less of the ace.. Remember she is a high octane 3 year old.. and just does not understand WHY she is stuck inside..
I have been changing up stalls for her, so at night she has the North side view with a brood mare next to her.. During the day she is on the south side of the barn with a friendly gelding to nose with..
So she is getting out .. sort of.. I figured she walks around in her stall more then the few steps to the other stalls.. !
Sara I ended up using a hay bag.. the net was getting tangled in her mouth..??? I had two of them too.. The hay bag is working great.. it only has one hole on one side.. so she has to spin it around to eat.. BUT I also have hay on the ground for her.. I WANT HER TO EAT and don't want her to get frustrated.. The barn baby sitters are now eating out of a hay bag too.. so that they have something to much on as along as she does.. Don't want their feelings hurt..
Each hour is a new emotion.. and like I said the vet tech is a blessing.. all tho she IS charging me.. I would have it no other way ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spot..
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New Member:
Tasia
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 6:27 am:
I'm not getting HA in my private e-mail, either. I checked my profile and all of my settings. Nothing has changed.
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 12:58 pm:
Ann, finally got back in touch with HA today . . . . . OH MY .. . . .
Why you ?
Wish I was closer, would be HAPPY to help. Although, I am on the short side . Let me know anyway, I am fine with big spicy mares.
Shelley
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 3:32 pm:
Ann,
I'm just now reading this thread. Please add my good wishes to your karmic bank.
Also, if you're going to be using alot of Elastikon, here's the link to the best prices I've found.
www.qualitymedicalsupplies.com
It's under Wound Care and then Medical Tape. $4.36/roll for 3" and $5.81/roll for 4" (US$)
Best to you and your girl,
Chris
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 4:57 pm:
I think the hardest part is getting them used to a new and very restrictive routine. After that, at least from my recent experiences with Warwick and Abby, they seem to settle in for the long haul. Plus she probably likes the change of scenery when you move her around the barn.
One thing I forgot to mention that might be of help is what I did after their "incarceration" period was over but they weren't ready to go bounding around the fields. I made up tiny temporary paddocks with hotwire in one of my smaller fields and moved them every other day so they always had new grass to pick at. I kept a buddy in the rest of the field and since the field was fairly small, they were never out of sight of each other. The little paddocks were the size of a foaling stall so just large enough to let them walk around and graze but not big enough to get up a head of steam. It was a major pain in the rear to keep moving the hotwire - especially when I did it for Abby in mid-summer when the ground was like cement - but it worked really well as it seemed to give them the illusion of being a normal horse again.
Not sure what your setup is like but maybe that's an option you can consider.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 5:26 pm:
Well after talking to my vet two times today... she IS my best friend ...
First off I asked how much ace orally I can give Danni... she is getting agitated with the splint change ... don't blame her .. its a tight fit and when you take it off the blood bounds thru... I know that pain... she stepped on my toe and broke it the other night..
Then I needed to know about the antibiotic... I HAVE TO GET HER OFF IT...
This AM I gave it to her and she did what I thought was a burp / gag... strange...
This afternoon... I groomed her for a 1/2 hour... with halter on... to relax her... I went to put on my rubber gloves and she did this awful 4 deep gut wrenching coughs... I could see her belly tie up in a knot and back lift... I cried.. and took the halter off her and came in to call the vet... I CAN'T DO THIS TO HER..
While waiting for the call.... I gave her some of the peppermint wash... that really did not make her happy... but made her breath nice.. but she would eat horse cookies by hand... she let out 4 huge burps... there was no mistaking that was what they were... HORSES DO NOT BURP.. unless ulcers or sever tummy upset am I correct? ...
Vet agreed .. take her off... she will go on SMZ for the rest of her life... and maybe once she is back on her feed I can give it to her as top dressing... but not now... she is not eating well at all..
egads... such is the roller coaster..
Sue, I have been thinking just thos lines of turnout.. we are set up perfect and I have a smallest turnout away from the horses.. I can cut down smaller for her and put a horse next to her.. great minds think a like!~ Of course this is a very long time from now..
Chris thanks for the link.. I ordered some today.. I bought enough for maybe two weeks at Wall mart and it cost a small fortune..
Shelly come on down.. She can use some sassy women at her side telling her whatz up..
thanks gang..
OH .DR. O , I just got a ton of HA emails delivered.. ???
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 6:39 pm:
Hi Ann,
My mare used to belch occasionally even though she wasn't on any meds and did not have ulcers. Was told it was impossible!!! Eventually figured out it was stress related, only happened after she went to shows. She was scoped etc fine so I think she may have been swallowing air when tense and it had to come back up. Hope it is nothing more than that with your mare. She looks lovely. My guy is into his 6th month of box rest and he is only 4. Initially he went a bit stir crazy but now he is nicely institutionalized!! Honestly it will get better, hang in there and wear steel toe cap boots.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 7:09 pm:
I also have an older mare who occasionaly burps...usually right in my face, which is probably why she does it.
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Member:
Twhgait
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 7, 2006 - 10:58 pm:
Let me add to the burping mares..... ....my 10 y.o. mare does it too! I've been told No Way, horses don't burp, but if it sounds like a burp and it looks like a burp, it's a burp. There is not a pattern to her burping and I have no idea about ulcers (never had a reason to test her for them), but she isn't stressed when she lets one out.
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 1:19 am:
Jeeze, Ann, is there any chance a round of gastroguard, or some alternative might help? If there ever was an ulcer candidate.....
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 7:08 am:
I agree horses rarely make a burp sound. Do I understand that your veterinarian has pulled the horses antibiotic Ann?
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 9:57 am:
Yes Dr. O.. she is now off Chloramphenicol and is taking SMZ's.. and she feels better in just 20 hours!! My understanding of Chloramphenicol is that MOST horses don't tolerate it well, the taste along lingers for hours, even with my mouth wash I made.. She was starting to do sloppy poop as well as the burping and deep gut retching awful coughs she let out when i put on the rubber gloves * I won't forget that sound soon*
I need to find out if I should be giving her the SMZ's three times a day or two? She is taking 16 tabs currently...
Lee, she is on gastroguard We made sure she was put on that right in the hospital..
Heres to some uneventful days ahead..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 7:02 pm:
That is not pulling the antibiotic but switching it. And that is a good thing though I would prefer a little more aggressive antibiotic regimen great that the horse is doing better. Here's to uneventful days!
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 8, 2006 - 10:13 pm:
Dr. O.. I am a little worried as well putting on such a mild broad spectrum drug.. Do you have any suggestions.. ???
She is soooo much more happy now.. no more burping.. and little bit of a shape stating on the poop piles.
ALSO ,,, drum roll please.. she put all her weight on the splinted leg while scratching her head with the good leg!!! Now that is a good sign in my book..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 6:58 am:
It is not so much that the antibiotic is inherently ineffective, it can be very potent, but that it is so widely used and the resistance that has developed. Have you used this antibiotic on your property, or in this horse, before Ann and how often?
We have a list of antibiotics you can consider at Treatments and Medications for Horses » Antibiotics and Antimicrobials.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 10:40 am:
Now that is an interesting thought > Yes pretty much all my horses have been on SMZ's at one time or another.. The last one was the colt .. Why do you say on the property..? Is it like pigeon fever, in the soil??? I can't remember but don't think this filly has ever been on them to date..
She is looking so much more alive now.. eating well / sassy once again !~
I have found that 3 cc's of ace orally is the key for changing up her bandage under the splint.. she is quiet more or less.. When we first take off the standing bandage she pulls her leg to her belly.. I am sure the throbbing is the problem.. but after a moment or two she will allow us to clean re dress the external wounds and wrap again..
On the first day God created horses , on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 9, 2006 - 12:16 pm:
Things sounds really promising, Ann! That is great news and I'm really happy for you.
You mentioned that Sassy's poops were rather loose. I know that is a fairly common side effect for antibiotics in general. When Abby came home from leg surgery in July and was on SMZ, after several days her poops became increasingly loose and watery. Since diarrhea is listed as a side effect for SMZ usage in humans I talked to the vet and we stopped the drug altogether. In addition I gave her BioSponge and her poops started to become formed within about 12 hours. That BioSponge is pretty amazing stuff. A real pain to give but definitely effective.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 10, 2006 - 7:38 am:
Hmmm I don't know Sue I would have expected the same thing without the BioSponge following cessation of treatment.
Ann the problem is the bacterial organisms found on your farm, some of which are pathogens that can infect wounds, will have increased resistance to antibiotics they have been exposed to, but it sounds like things are going well.
DrO
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Friday, Nov 10, 2006 - 10:00 am:
Picture of the splint. Ann I am still sending positive, healing thoughts!
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Friday, Nov 10, 2006 - 11:15 am:
That is good to know, Dr O. I guess the vet was were erring on the side of caution as Abby had some pretty explosive poops - as in hitting the stall wall behind her. Or maybe - and probably more likely - it was meant as a placebo for me!
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 5:44 pm:
Dr. O.. I have a question re this filly's other bare feet.. She was due to have them trimmed last week and they are getting pretty long in the toe.. Getting a hold of the surgeon is difficult at best..He travels all over the nation working..
I am pretty sure my farrier can do her front feet without much trouble for the filly.. I am wondering if we should even attempt to do the good leg.. It would mean putting her weight on that splint.. which I have seen her do, itching her ear with the good one before... Of course the splinted hoof is getting long in the toe too and he should do it as well.. Or is this a miner deal in the scheme of things?
Also looking over your article Tendon Structure and Function pictures again.. She must have severed this tendon right above the heel bulb, making for attachment pretty darn difficult in her recovery??
She is accepting the SMZ's wonderfully , she even licks the bowl clean.. I put sugar with it, so now she is sucking the syringe!! Appetite is good , poop formation is normal.. On the cooler days I have to give her 2 cc's of Ace three times a day.. So far that is helping.. BUT I have to say I am jumping thru hoops to keep her schedule perfect with no new things to upset her.. Makes life in MY barn hard..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 8:01 pm:
Ann, just thought I'd let you know that Dr. Snow had Libby stand on her brace long enough to trim or "good" foot (at the time) and then when they were changing wraps under the splint, they trimmed her "bad" foot. Of course I realize her injuries are different than your girls.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 6:21 am:
Until you get to ok from the surgeon I recommend you avoid forcing weight on the opposite limb. In such cases I have often used a old rasp to rasp back the toe of the foot while it was on the ground. It is hard on the rasp but takes care of the greatest concern: a long toe.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 10:04 am:
I do have some old files, do I just lay the file parallel to the ground and slide it back and fourth on her toe? Do you think he can trim up her fronts?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 2, 2006 - 6:42 pm:
DARN DARN DARN... all tho.. One would say my luck is changing.. it happened on a Saturday, in the daylite and the vet was already here..
Vet came out to give Danni a fluphenisine shot and to watch to make sure no reaction right away... We were talking about the splint and things to come , when the vet noticed a stress fracture of the splint.. ''Has that been there?'' NO I said... WE called the clinic they gave me a song and dance how I had to buy another one (( ON A SATURDAY ?)) I gave the phone to the vet... as she was talking SNAP it broke right in 1/2 ..! I had to get it off her right away... she was compromised by the duck tape and velcro.. !~ My husband ran and made a wedge block and the vet ducked taped that on her hoof... I DrOve to the clinic.. golly they had another one.. !!~ Anyway the clinic vet that has been seeing DAnni was ''impressed'' with the break and taking pictures..!!!~ Also said that he saw no reason why we could not use this one till Friday when we are suppose to be putting her in a wedged shoe.. !~
UgH.. I am so tired of living this stress...
Question.. If she had re pulled / torn what the surgeon had knitted together... she would be hopping lame again..??? Sore? As is she is was walking around on her block!~
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 2, 2006 - 11:21 pm:
Ann, I would think Danni would be really sore and hurting if she had re-injured her leg. It would be pretty obvious. If she isn't acting sore with her splint broken, I would take that as a good sign that she is healing good. It's my understanding that these splints, if it's a Kemsey (sp?) are actually meant to be temporary like a splint for humans. They aren't built for long usage. Danni is a big girl and has been putting a lot of pressure on the splint, and I'd guess she just wore it out. Back when Dr. Snow was thinking of trying to keep Libby in a splint for a long period of time, he mentioned it would most probably have to be replaced periodically.
Trust me...I hear you on the stress bit! Hang in there. Take some deep breathes, have a glass of wine, and hang in there. My mantra has become "this too shall pass."
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 3, 2006 - 9:54 am:
My mantra has become "this too shall pass."
I personally like THIS SOON SHALL PASS.. hehehee.. Thanks Sara, I hope its a good sign too that she is not anymore sore on that leg.. My husband believes its the stress of getting up and down on the splint, it takes a huge toll on the'bar' everytime she gets up....So 5 weeks could be the limit of this Kemzey (sp?).. She has till Friday in this....
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 3, 2006 - 10:30 am:
Hi Ann,
One thing after another...you poor thing! How's Danni today?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 4, 2006 - 7:43 am:
Yes I too think a retear would result in increased lameness Ann so this all sounds OK to me.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 5, 2006 - 10:22 pm:
Dr. O , the clinic is coming out to do an ultrasound on Danni Friday.. They are doing this as an apology for me jumping thru hoops to get another splint when her's broke.. * I was rather rude when they finally said.. oh ok we have two on hand **... and becus the schedule of the farrier and the surgeon is just not coming together... ANYWAY.. they will ultrasound and report to the surgeon so that he can make a decision on the shoe...
my question is.. I was under the impression that a ultrasound this soon , 6 weeks , is useless becus of the swelling still to the injury site.. ? Is this so.. ?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spot..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 6, 2006 - 11:38 am:
No the ultrasound looks right through the swelling and should be able to determine if the recent problem has exacerbated the injury.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 9:44 am:
6 week ultrasound report : The clinic came to my place .. kind of a ' we are sorry for you having to jump thru hoops with us lately' so I would not have to haul her out twice in one week.. That was kind..
without clipping her leg this is the finding... WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS and nothing appears to be worse from the splint breaking last week.. she is developing tissue / scar tissue <?> around the surgery site ... It appears the superficial are ok BUT interestingly enough there is some swelling just a bit above the fetlock, the vet said it was her DDFT very 'angry' he did not see any holes but there is swelling..
On hind site , DR. O .. could this be what is called possibly a bandage bow.. ?/ She is wrapped tight with standing bandages and the splint is put on snuggly..
I inquired about maybe breeding her this late spring.. would the weight be too much on her in the end ... vet felt this would be a good idea, give her /ME something to do in this long rehab process... ( I have conceded that this will be a two year ordeal ) the worry is can she still be on the joint supplements / and sedatives ... ( fluphenisine and possibly something to boost it while walking ) I am thinking even in the spring time we will maybe just be getting close to the trot work , so hand walking I will need help thru chemicals....
Any thoughts re my questions Dr. O.. ?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Sswiley
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 1:39 pm:
Ann,
Is there heat at the fetlock swelling?
I bandage bowed my mare last summer. What happened, was I was wrapping cut and forgot to tape the velcro(I NEVER forget this!!). The bandage started to unwrap while she was turned out and I think it was stepped on by the hind foot and tightened down on the leg. It made a lot of local swelling, no lamness. I was horrified and treated it quite aggressively. It healed quickly without any evidence.
Your mare could be just more sensitive to irritants than most. I think some horses(my mare is one) respond with inflamation more readily.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 9, 2006 - 2:49 pm:
Shelly its hard to tell if there is heat or not.. the whole leg is tightly wrapped thus it is warm to touch.. I got a response from my barn vet.. she felt it unlikely that there is a bandage bow.. ( all tho odd to me that the swelling is right where we tightly cinch the velcro strap of the splint in place ) It does not surprize her that the DDFT is 'angry' 1/2 way up the leg..
This soon shall pass.. TUESDAY when we get shoes..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 10:41 am:
I am uncertain what was meant by "very angry" Ann, the person doing the exam could answer this better. If you are asking is this possible the answer is yes, it is possible.
I am not greatly in favor of breeding this mare as the tendon will never be as strong as the original and if it becomes inflamed during pregnancy this will be tough on you and the horse. I guess if there is a time the experienced ultrasonographer thinks it is reasonably safe and your vet approves it, who am I to argue?
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 10, 2006 - 10:51 am:
Ann,just be sure there is no infection in this area, or any hemotoma that could become a problem. Did the vet ultra sound it?
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 12, 2006 - 8:16 pm:
Wise thoughts Dr. O..
Sara yes they did an ultrasound on her all the way up..
Ok back from the clinic and farrier.. They took off her splint and put her in a egg bar shoe with a solid wedge pad screwed in on the bottom of the egg bar and with a solid wedge pad in-between the egg barn and the hoof.. So it looks like a sandwich My understanding is that she is to be stall bound for another 3 months? * This I got from talking to my home vet not the surgeon , he still has not returned my calls She said that she understood that we will unscrew the wedged pad off the bottom in 6 weeks, or make it a smaller wedge? And proceed like that every 6 weeks till she is in a reg shoe.. No hand walking yet.. I asked if I could open her stall up to a foaling stall 12X24 home vet said she thought it a good idea... As Danni is a kicker.. and MY thinking is if she kicks out the wall won't be as close for contact... providing she kicks in the right direction.. ** If we lived in a perfect world..
So what I have noticed today.. in the splint her fetlock was completely immobile.. she has mobility now.. and it appears she is unsure of it.. she had a hard time lying down and getting up.. much like a new born foal. ? I will keep a close watch on this.. Also her almost pressure wound, now that it is not wrapped.. has turned into a nice looking hematoma (sp).. again will watch that, Home vet is out here on Friday for another injection of the fluephenisine, if does not look worse the wear I will wait for her to come out..
Ahhh... this is going to be a very long year..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 6:49 am:
Ann could you take a picture of the wedge for everyone?
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 13, 2006 - 9:43 am:
Will get a picture from the side and from the bottom this evening if husband comes home early enough
Question, looking over my notes on tendon lacerations, the suggestions are putting a one inch trailer on, does the egg bar offer enough support?
On the first day God created horses , on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 5:59 am:
It is the solid wedge that is providing relief to the tendon and the lack of extension is OK if the footing secure. If stall ridden it would make sense not to bed deeply so that the heels do not sink down putting tension on the tendon.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 4:56 pm:
Pictures taken today..
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 4:59 pm:
and a couple more + a leg shot..
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 5:02 pm:
I think I watch her too much! When she lays down it is difficult for her to get up .. she lays on her good hip, and pushes her body around a 1/4 turn using her front legs then gets her good leg under her to push up.. her bad hoof appears to almost buckle on to the toe.. I just cringe watching her... This year will not go by quick enough...
On the first day God created horses on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 10:15 pm:
Good pictures, Ann. Now I'm really curious to know just what Libby has on for a shoe and lift. I've got to get down there to see her.
I know what you mean about getting all this over with. Try and concentrate on the positive...let's see, there's umm...well, there's..ah...hmmmmm..well, there's all that great bonding time spent with your horse! And, what were you going to do with all that money, anyway? Hang in there!! Angie and I were going to sit on her back porch and have a glass of wine some day; too bad you're both not closer. You could probably use a glass of wine, too. We could sit on a hay bale in the barn and commiserate with each other in between doctoring duties.
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Dec 15, 2006 - 11:01 pm:
If it were not for the d**** horses, we would be FILTHY RICH... but would it be as exciting.. ???
Sara, Oh how I would love to be sitting on a bale of hay sucking down a nice cold beer with you..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 12:59 am:
Ann, we'd have more money perhaps, but I don't think we'd be richer.
I'm not much for beer, sorry. You're welcome to it,but I'll stick to wine...or if it's been a hard day maybe some bourbon over ice.
Off to bed. I hope your girl continues to improve.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 8:10 am:
Ann these shoes have at least a one inch extension behind the heel, and being solid offer more support than trailers alone. I must say the wound has healed well and I expected more swelling.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 10:00 am:
I guess I was looking from the fetlock down and not the actual heel bulb, My home vet said the same thing last night.. Also she said for me not to be concerned about the swelling up her leg, for the amount of trauma done..
I have a question re her laying down.. It is still very hard for her.. and well with her on the fluphenisine she lays goes down often.. After she gets down, she licks her sore fetlock, when she comes up she holds her leg under her belly... IF she was doing more tearing of the scare/healing of the tendon again she would be hopping lame correct.. ?? I guess with the splint on stabilizing the fetlock it has grown weaker.. thus her trouble?
Thus far with the help of sedatives, she is settling into being a stall bound filly.. once a day she does a few bucks/ squeals .. it is short lived.. I talk to her and pet her neck to calm her down..
Sara.. Thanks for the e card , you are a charm..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 17, 2006 - 9:35 am:
I think it is hard to guess if you are having small tears or even if not, will the big tear come next time on standing. But the question is there anything that could be done to prevent this? If there is I don't see it short of slinging the horse up to prevent laying down. Short of that, I do suggest a very large stall with minimal bedding to make the process as easy as possible. To prevent the bucks and squeals, if you can predict them a small dose of xylazine might help, remembering that the effects with the fluphenazine are likely to be additive. I do have to say I am uncertain of the safety of mixing them but consider the risk worthwhile if the bucking dangerous to the leg.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 17, 2006 - 9:56 am:
whelp.. Yesterday her small bucks came up very SORE..all i can think is that she buckled on her bad leg.. she was hopping lame for a bit, but now is putting 'some' weight on it, but not anything like she had before.. and watching her lay down last night on the video cam just made me sick.. she tried for close to 40 mins and would change her mind.. finally she just DrOpped.. and stayed down most of the night >yawn<.. There really is nothing I can do, she is on stall rest and we CAN'T do surgery again.. So I am buting her to help with the pain .. and will bed her less, and just hope for the best till the next ultrasound.. darn darn darn..
Dr. O I have still not heard from the surgeon,,. how often should she be ultrasound?
Thank you again for this wonderful website.. it has been so helpful in my times of stress
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 18, 2006 - 9:45 am:
I think anytime there is a setback or just prior to the next step up in exercise level would be logical.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 23, 2006 - 8:03 pm:
Below is finally an email from the surgeon...
Ann,
Sorry for the delay in getting back in touch with you. It has been an
overwhelming couple of weeks. The ultrasound looks very good. The enlargment
above the laceration site is relatively normal. As long as the palmar annular
ligament doesn't become restrictive we should still be fine. If she had done
any significant damage she should still be pretty sore, probably just stressed
the healing tissue or broke some adhesions free. You are right that the
tension on the tendon is just a necessary evil. It is normal for them to pull
the cut ends apart slightly during the healing process, the tendon heals by
"gap healing" and then contracts the scar tissue down to return the tendon to
the original length. The wedges should be reduced every 6 weeks to allow for
lengthening of the tendons. I like to DrOp them down by a couple of degrees
each time. The next ultrasound should probably be in 8 weeks to assess the
fiber pattern and any contracture of the ligament. She should be on
stall rest
at least until the next check. It is likely that we will be able to
begin some
handwalking at that time. The enlargement to 12 x 24 should be fine. So far
we would expect her to make a full return to performance. We will make her
prove that she has limitations after sonographically it is normal.
So feeling hopeful... I have a question, and by the way great referance on palmar annular
ligament... I had to look that up.. So why would that be restricting..? The injury was below that area.. The only thing I can think of is the way she has her fetlock 'cocked' while in the splint and in the wedged shoes.. and it is swollen.. That area was not injured to my knowledge..
I tried her in the ice boots and she pitches a fit.. kicking .. my gut says she will do more damage by trying to get rid of them then good if I could manage them to stay on at this point.. so I am just putting her in standing bandages that I change twice a day with ''melon thump'' pressure on them..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 6:30 am:
The news sounds good Ann. As to the annular ligament desmotomy I am uncertain why the surgeon would bring it up, so really a question for him/her. If you get swelling in the flexor sheath this will ascend the leg to the level of the fetlock's annular ligament and this may be the surgeon's concern.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Feb 3, 2007 - 6:22 pm:
14 weeks progress report:
the severed Tendon looks really good for this stage... YES , there is fiber pattern starting to form.. !~ Healing ''very good''... BUT... always a butt.... the DDft higher up is nasty inflamed still... no change since her last ultrasound (8 wks ago) I guess this is called a bow ? so reason to be concerned slightly....Tom, the surgeon was there as well... and gave me a few scenario's... one the palmar angular could be restricting thus the swelling... but we ultrasound that... and its within normal range.. ? so Tom believes the tendon had blunt force the time of the accident , thus it was injured higher up too... and well... time will heal it as well... the superficials are in good order... !~
The wiggle when she walks... not to worry ,,, but ,,, most likely cus of the tendon higher up , not the severed one ...?/ interesting... i guess cus its inflamed does not move up and down smoothly,,, thus more or less fighting with the extensor tendons... ** my words.. ** The wiggle is not a flip.. when her hoof is in the air it wiggles like the shoe is heavy or she has not full control ( hard to explain )
SO... 8 more weeks of stall rest! with only the stall being enlarged for her walking ... She has become very sassy this past week.. Its like her patience has run out on this cr*p... I was giving her fluphenisine, but I don't feel its helping anymore in fact I think this last time only agitated her.. So back to oral ace a couple of times a day ..
oh no icing... I asked about ultrasound....He said it would help better then the ice, he said I should just buy it... as i will need it more then a week or two... thus renting would be silly... Any ideas where to buy a machine?
so feeling very good.. we have progress...NOW to try to keep her happy and ME safe the next 8 weeks.
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 4, 2007 - 6:13 am:
Sometimes you get behavioral humps like this that will usually settle down but until it does be very careful. I have known of dozens of folks hurt by a long stall rested horse. Glad to hear the progress is as expected.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 10:12 am:
A behavioral hump, I like that thought.. I had the gal out that broke Danni to ride to talk to Danni in her Parelli language... that is how she broke Danni to ride.... the Parelli way.. what a change in DAnni's tude once she was spoken to in the language she understands.... at first she did try to cow kick / bite Lisa when she started touching her all over.. ** remember DAnni won't let me groom her anymore grumpy mare **... Lisa had her '' carrot stick / Parelli stick'' she tapped DAnni on the top of her neck , which made Danni DrOp her head , then she moved her shoulder over and continued to groom her back.... Danni stood still... all tho , we do think her back is sore.... Danni MUST still allow us to put our hand on her ... without pressure to cause pain of course... Lisa showed me some of the body language I need to use on DAnni and what a change... her eyes became liquid / soft.... this all in less then 10 mins... after we left... DAnni laid down... mentally tired.. ?????
So my husband made me a 'stick' ... an old broom handle..... so when it was time to put her in the new bigger / improved stall.. I led her in ... talked to DAnni in her language... walked her around ... and let her go.... she was happy and content... no bucking or snorting.. !~
I think Danni is bored ., well of course she is... and this challenges her mind without making her work... if she can move around a stall she can surely more her shoulder for me and back up one step .. !~
Hopeful feelings that maybe this 8 weeks will go by fast and safe.. !~
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
sswiley
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Posted on Monday, Feb 5, 2007 - 1:02 pm:
Hump . . . . ? Yeah tell Danni that, hehe.
Ann, I think you hit the nail on the head with this new way of dealing with her. I have always thought something like clicker training might also work well to mentally challenge a stall bound horse but I think this is better because it will relax them more instead of adding anticipation to their day.
Good call !
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 6:26 pm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4r2mvpBKks
Dr. O when you have time.. will you view this video of Danni's flop walk and tell me the mechanics of why she is doing this.. What I believe is that the DDF controlls the foot fall and the superficials keep the fetlock from DrOpping? Injury was Oct. 27th.. Is this what I have read about an irregular gait from such an injury?
Thanks..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 5:53 am:
Ann if you email it to me in either MPEG or WMV format I will review it for you.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Friday, Mar 2, 2007 - 9:58 am:
Dr. O did you receive the video I mailed.. ""lamenes video""? Or you can go to youtube with the above link..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 3, 2007 - 7:10 am:
No Ann I don't think so. Can you resend? Put "Lameness Video" in the subject line.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 8, 2007 - 9:52 am:
Dr. O , Did you get the video?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 7:31 am:
Ann I still have not seen the video: is it possible it is so large that your ISP email software rejects it? I have had this happen with Bellsouth when attachments hit about 3 megs. If so cutting it up into smaller fragments may solve the problem.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 10, 2007 - 9:39 am:
all righty.. I sent it again.. its smaller and the quality is not as good..I hope it works this time and you can see what i am seeing.. Again.. what I am looking for is the mechanics of the 'flop' .. the DDFT controls the hoof? She is strong on it and can bare full weight without the fetlock DrOpping at all, but when you lift her leg her hoof just dangles? Thus the flop walk..
** She is still on complete stall rest, but will start her walking program after the next ultrasound March.24th
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 11, 2007 - 12:20 pm:
Got it Ann and while finding it I located the first movie, it got lost in the spam I am afraid. I will review these get back with you tomorrow.
DrO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 12, 2007 - 10:08 am:
Ann, I have cut out the best examples of the walk to decrease the size of the file and so others can see what we are talking about here is a link. It is still about 1 meg in size so if you are on dial up be patient:
Danni's Flop Walk
The foreshortened view often taken from angles that don't really show the motion well make interpretation a bit difficult. What I would really like to see is the horse outside so you can stand well to the side and video the horse as it walks by at a consistent speed. This avoids the "looking down" which foreshortens the leg and the stopping and turning so much which also effects the way the horse steps.
It appears the horse has a bit of toe wiggle just before the foot comes down and then there is a bit of a backward pull as the horse puts the foot down with a bit of slap. However sometimes you don't see the motion clearly suggesting this may be something the horse does purposefully to adapt to the injury of the elevated heel? I am uncertain however because of the above mentioned problems.
DrO
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Monday, Mar 12, 2007 - 1:34 pm:
Love the music, thanks for the link Dr. O. I had been wondering how things were going for you Ann. I think I see what you are talking about - could the weight of the shoe be contributing to what is seen as the foot moves through the air?
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Mar 13, 2007 - 9:58 am:
Hi Stacy, I was thinking the same thing too, but its not a heavy shoe or pad.. and well, I have seen horses wear the same kind of shoe without the 'wiggle'.. Its a matter of strength I am sure.. I was just trying to figure out what the DDFT's part is in the wiggle.. Control?
I just rented a therapeutic Ultrasound machine and will start using it on her nightly, the swelling is not all that bad, its been 5 months!~
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 4:01 pm:
WEll we are back... Danni was a champ in loading.. both ways actually
The severed tendon is right on course for healing... looks good... organized fiber patterns forming... hurray!~
The upper bow , that was not detected when she was first seen has no significant healing There has been some healing and some dense fiber patterns BUT it is still twice as large as it should be.. egads... yet the outside appearance is better since i started the US at home.. ??
The vet is a '' little'' concerned about the upper not healing as quickly with all this stall rest.. but he did say , other bows of this nature , he has put them on a hand walking program after only a couple of months stall rest.. , so maybe the hand walking will help.. ? maybe...
So we can start walking .. yippee we will lower her heel again... 1/2 the wedge she is wearing now... I am going to put a shoe with a pad on the good leg now too... to even her hips for walking.. its time..
I take her to the rehab barn April 3rd.. I asked them to hand walk her the first week till she gets used to the environment... then put her on the mill... they agreed... AND THE BEAUTY OF THIS... they do therapeutic US too.. ..included... So husband and i don't have to go there daily to do this and we can return the rented machine.. !~
He explained the flop walk... the extensor tendons on the front bring the hoof up.. ? flip.. the DDFT controls the flip and how much... her DDFt is still very compromised thus the flop walk... again he feels with exercise / strength she will start to control this soon..
We will start with '' 5-10 mins '' daily every 5 days add 2 mins.. interesting .. 5- 10.. HUH... guess depends on her tude? He wants to see her when she is up to 20 - 30 mins of walking... so that is about 8 weeks or so..
Not to walk her for 3 - 4 days after the new shoe.. let her adjust in the stall.. The farrier will be coming out on Wed.. so this is perfect timing...
Also to give her he said 1 1/2 - 2 cc's of ace orally.. HA..... she will get 3 cc's to start with... hopefully that will be enough.. My barn vet said we could give her 5 cc's if needed...
darn i forgot to ask about the long term effect on the gut etc with the use.. well, i hope we will only have to use it for a couple of weeks..
Dr. O.. long term effects of using Ace on her gut or other organs..???
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Saturday, Mar 24, 2007 - 7:43 pm:
Wow!! What a lucky girl she is to have you.
Best of Luck!
Chris
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Mar 25, 2007 - 12:36 am:
This sounds like progress to me, Ann! So glad!! And I agree with Chris about how lucky se is to have you - someone willing to spend the time and energy (and money!) to heal her.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Mar 26, 2007 - 8:35 am:
Ann check out Treatments and Medications for Horses » Sedatives & Anesthetics » Acepromazine.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Mar 29, 2007 - 10:35 am:
 
Danni's leg with new shoe yesterday.. She was a pill doing her hoofs, prancing/dancing.. I am sure she is sore from it ..
Dr. O any suggestions on how to help get rid of the swelling its been over 5 months.. complete stall rest.. Next week we start the hand walking..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Mar 30, 2007 - 8:38 am:
Ann it depends on the nature of the swelling. Check out the topics on Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Leg Swellings. There you will find topics to help you diagnose your problem and links to articles on specific types and how to address them.
DrO
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Mar 30, 2007 - 11:22 am:
Ann, is the swelling soft or hard? Libby's leg will always be a little swollen looking due to the damage she did. I wonder if it will be for same for Danni? Has the vet commented on this at all?
If it's going to go down, I'd think when she can exercise it will. Meanwhile, I assume you've massaged her leg,used cool gel, etc. How about DMSO? But I'd check with the vet first. I know some old timers put a poultice on the leg, wrap it in saran wrap, then a standing wrap and leave that on for awhile. In her case I don't know if any of this would help or not. It would make you feel like you were doing something useful though.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Apr 2, 2007 - 11:49 pm:
Sara, the swelling is more or less soft.. not squishy soft, but not set either ... Vet did not make a comment on the exterior of her leg only that the low bow had not changed much in 7 weeks.. I have been doing the ultrasound on it and cold hoseing.. was wondering if sweating would help.. but alas tomorrow i take her to the rehab barn and will let them slowly start her walk program.. maybe this is the key in this situation..
I have mixed feelings on letting her go.. I know it will be the safest thing for both of us.. But these past months.. I have bonded with her and her me.. its a love hate relationship.. somedays she LOVES me to love on her.. other days she would rather i just leave her alone.. I think once she gets out and moving her 'tude' will improve and lets hope the swelling and of course lets even dare to hope she will be sound after all of this..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 12:45 am:
If it's soft, I'd think it will go down in time, just from my own experiences. Is the rehab barn close enough that you can go and visit her? As seldom as I see Libby she always remembers me. Of course, I wear gloves or boots that smell like all her friends, so that probably helps. She won't forget the time you've spent with her and it will make her easier to work with in the future.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Apr 3, 2007 - 9:11 am:
Yes, Sara she is pretty close.. about a 25 min. drive... I plan on seeing her the first couple of weeks about every other day... letting go is hard... specially when its been such an INTENSE time with her / watching 24/ 7 on the video cam and 6 times a day feedings... There will be a hole...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 6:32 pm:
Danni is back after two months at the rehab barn, loaded outside of the rehab barn just like a pro... we were 45 mins early for her Ultrasound appt.... luckily the 9 o clock did not show up... so we were in....
US .. ok.. the severed tendon is on schedule good organized fiber pattern... the low bow.. is behind schedule all tho there is improvement from 10 weeks ago.. ! numbers don't mean anything to me other then .. 10 weeks ago she was a 3.1.. today she was a 2.9 ... so improvement... The vet said something to the effect a mare her size should be around 1 something.. hum could it be 1.9 ? HA! I am sure i am dreaming.. We are to continue with the hand walking adding 5 mins every two weeks.. She is up to 25 mins now.. When we are up to an hour to return for another US to determine if the trot work can begin..
We decided to just put her in her postage stamp turn out when we got home... to take advantage of the drugs she was given earlier... we are driving down the driveway and Prima and Picasso and Tom ARE ALL IN THE SAME PASTURE TOGETHER..???? It looks like Prima went under the fence... yup.. the bottom two strands of hot fence were down... the upper was still tight..???? what the heck...
they were quiet... so continued with plan and put DAnni out... all went well... Husband fixed the fence... I took Prima out and put her back in her pasture... ( don't want them to establish a herd/ bond and never be able too ) ... we watched for an hour all is good.. Danni's stamp size stall , when she flips her tail she hits the fence... we will be expanding with two weeks i am sure...
pictures to follow ..
ok interesting... Tom, my yearling Prima's colt, was glued to Prima.. and they would not let Picasso near them or DAnni's fence line before i separated them.. Picasso baby sat Prima .. actually raised her when the damn was put down... then Prima baby sat DAnni for 3 years ... wonder if its a mare thing.. or if Picasso was out of the loop much longer.. ?? After separation again... Picasso stayed away from Tom.. do you think Picasso got his feelings hurt and said something like.. '' Ok you little s**t... you snuffed me for mom.. , now the b*tch is gone you mule butt.... ''or words to that effect..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 10:14 pm:
How do you keep Danni looking so good??? Brave is a BOAT!
Sorry to hear you had a bit of a fiasco, bet you Prima jumped it
Thinking of you and Danni and wishing for more uneventful recovery time!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 4:19 pm:
Thanks Aileen, but Danni is over weight too.
Well today we are on Plan C .. the horse dynamics is too strong and I just can't let DAnni adjust and bounce on her leg like she did today.. So she will stay inside and I will bring the baby sitter horse into her.. Sad as one of the baby sitters will be cheated turn out time.. .. I should start a thread on horse behavior.. As I got an eye full this weekend..
Danni has been walking all over the rehab handlers, it was very apparent with her trying to do the same with me.. We had to do some adjusting.. I hated seeing her bounce around on that leg.. but MY safety is NUMBER ONE.. She had to be reminded who is in charge.. So today her walk was about body posturing and MY SPACE.. hopefully tomorrow we will get back on track and walk PEACEFULLY.. * rehab barn she will put on a Eurocisor not walked in hand*..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 7:47 am:
Good news to hear that Danni is home with you, Ann. I'm sending over best wishes for the rehab and a nice, quiet horse through out!
I have tons of empathy for anyone having to keep a horse on stall or small paddock rest for an injury. I had 4 months of it several years back and I think it was one of the most stressful times of my life.
Best wishes for an uneventful & complete recovery~
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 9:59 am:
Fran, I would not wish stall / rehab rest ON ANYONE.. its a nightmare.. ! The hoops one has to jump thru to keep the horses happy.. Then the dreaded 1st time out of the stall walk.. or should be said kite flying.. .. and the wait.. not knowing what the out come will be.. We have another year before we can evaluate IF she will be sound for riding /performing.. I feel somewhat good about the vet asking if she had a limp when she walks.. NO ! no limp , even hip
motion , over tracks.. BUT she does that slight wiggle when she lifts and the flop when she lands still. His comment was '' no limp.. there will be no problem'' I will take that as encouragement.. Take it where i can..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 8:01 am:
I hear you, Fran and Ann. I had about 10 months of the stall rest/handwalking - and lost kilos! It wasn't the exercise, it was the stress of "what's going to send her leaping next, and will it ruin all the healing and take us back to square one (or minus 5)". I swear I got so nervous I was leaping at every sound as well - and without doubt making the situation worse. What a nightmare!
A heartfelt GOOD LUCK, Ann!
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 12:56 pm:
I love Ann's description of a walking a stall resting horse as "kite flying". It's so true - you just never quite know what's gonna be flipping around at the end of the lead line. Even the calmest, most well behaved horse becomes an idiot. I remember my mare going up into the rafters when one of the barn cats sneezed. I took to hand walking her on a lunge line, trying to keep her quiet and close to me but with the ability to open up space between us when she got silly without letting go of her.
It's completely nerve wracking. But, Ann, it sounds as if Danni's healing is exceeding expectations - Great news!
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Member:
kbr1
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 4:10 pm:
While I wouldn't wish this on anyone, I am glad to hear my horse isn't the only one that goes 'nuts' sometimes. She has been on stall rest for about 4 months now. I have been hand walking her since about the second week, I haven't had an ultrasound done - my vet only had x-ray equipment - he recommended keeping her in the barn without walking for a few months but she was going crazy and when I reviewed the guidance on this site, hand walking seemed appropriate from early on. I used Ace for a while but ended up switching to an all natural herbal thing and I actually think it works just as well.
Sometimes it seems like my horse will never be well again....
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 6:23 am:
Kathleen, there is no scientific support for the use of OTC calming herbal products and experience with dozens of attempts at using these products finds most owners first thinking they see an effect but in time give up on it. While they often comment, "it has quit working" I never noticed any difference in the first place.
On the other hand a common event is most stall rested horses, after going through a period of fighting it, come to accept it and calm down a lot. But here I caution everyone these horses can unexpectedly explode after weeks of behaving passively so do be cautious. This explosion usually takes the form of a kick at their handler when they first feel a little freedom again, so again I caution be careful particularly if on a loose lead. When first lunging a bit of ace, sometimes a good bit of ace, may make the difference in a horse that remains in control and does not injure his handler or reinjure himself. I don't think you can get this response with herbs.
I am not sure anyone above referenced it above but there is a article on Stall Resting horses in the behavioral problem section.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 9:38 am:
Dr. O after 7 months on stall rest I have noted what you describe above.. This filly slowly figured out that her stall was home and that is the way it is.. We tried the herbals, nothing.. the Ace has been our best friend for farrier work or when there is a lot of activity in the barn.. Then there was a bump in the road, about 4 months into the stall rest, she became restless again.. but that pasted with in a week..Hand walking thus far has been an adventure.. my neck and shoulder are sore from the tension I AM KEEPING, anticipating an explosion.. Thus far she does a leap and a dbl barrel kick out but comes right back down to me with the 'head down Q' .. I am trying to feel the explosion before it happens, thus my tension..so that I can DrOp her head / relax .. I walk her on a loose rope just slightly in front of her head.. I find this a safe position for me and am still able to feel tension before it starts.. Walking her at the end of the line behind me like she was trained does not work.. she is too far back for me to 'feel' her .. all tho safer for me I guess , not necessarily safer for to get out of control and re-injure.. Watching husband walk her yesterday, I can't say there is no limp.. she over strides nicely ,but I see an irregularity in the stride.. its more a feel then really a visual.. Figure that is a strength issue as she is just now getting out..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
kbr1
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 6, 2007 - 12:46 pm:
Ann That is what I have been going thru, sometimes she is fine and other times a bomb, she seems to be worse when we have windy conditions (she is a spooky horse by nature), so like you I end up with my arm and shoulder sore from anticipation.
Dr.O - as I stated earlier, she has not had an ultrasound, but her swelling has gone one considerable from what it was, she still has some in the upper back area of the fetlock. And I have been walking her and even doing a little trotting here and there, she has not gone lame since the accident (she was lame for around 3 weeks). Since I don't know if I will ever be able to get her an ultrasound, do you thing I should continue using the guidlines you list? Any thoughts would be helpful. (I am going to stop the 'Natural' Calm stuff, it's not very cheap either.
Thanks
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 7, 2007 - 7:31 am:
Kathleen,
The article on tendon lacerations does give you recommendations and I don't see anything in your posts to change them, but you should follow your veterinarians treatment plan as he can examine your horse and is most familiar with the case. If he differs significantly with our recommendations you certainly should ask why.
I do think there is a natural desire for horses to move around when the weather turns cool and windy, perhaps a stimulus for migrating to new areas? Concerning the wind and temperament, if this makes her spooky in the stall try a radio tuned to her favorite station. It suppresses the windy sound. In time horses get use to most anything as long as they don't learn:
1) that there is a benefit in misbehaving
or
2) learn there really are reasons to be afraid of the wind.
Do you try to calm her with feed, companionship, soothing words, or grooming during these times? When critical a big dose of ace in the food an hour prior to work will work much better and be far chearper than a dose of "Calm and Whatever". Get your vet to sell you a 50 cc bottle and it should not be that much, the stuff is cheap.
DrO
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Member:
kbr1
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 7, 2007 - 9:58 am:
Thanks, DrO, the difference between my vets recommendations and the article found here, is that my vet really didn't want her to be walked, he wanted her on stall rest for a few months. But since she was going nuts I started the walking which has helped. And then when I found the recommendations on this site I started using them. And she has responded well, I am getting ready to set up a small pen so she can be outside and graze a little, that should help up both relax a little. I just don't want to be doing any damage to her, and since the swelling has gone done (not completely) and she is not at all lame I am assumming she are getting better.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 7, 2007 - 10:16 am:
Kathleen be very careful with a 'severed/lacerated' tendon.. that is much worse then a bow.. My filly was on COMPLETE stall rest for 6 months!! COMPLETE .. we are dealing with two injuries on the same tendon.. one the laceration of the DDFT right above the heal bulb and a blunt force injury to the DDFT right above the fetlock.. Both require different rehabs but we have to rehab the more grave injury first.. Now that she can be hand walked the lesser 'bow' will start to mend more quickly.. * you can read the first post about our injury.. *
Our postage stamp turn out will only work for my girl in the best conditions.. the boys are locked up and her girlfriend/ baby sitter is beside her .. otherwise we are asking for way to much activity then she is suppose to have.. so be flexible with your ideas...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 10, 2007 - 10:57 am:
Well Danni has settled in so very nicely... walking her has been a PLEASURE ..NO DRUGS AT ALL! I know, she is surprising me HUGELY..
Some mornings she can only do 15 mins... then she will kind of fall out behind... so then i will do another 15 mins later in the day...
Today we got in our full 30 mins... not one jig / trot or miss step... even took her for a final lap around the driveway tree ...
Turn out is as follows... on the weekends after her baby sitter gets worked .. she and the mare get to go out till noon or till its too hot.. (no shade.) On week days , when husband comes home we put the girls out around 6 and leave till dark.. I have the boys locked up in their paddocks for this... they just added to much excitement to the mix... and well this works.... We might open up Danni's postage stamp stall up a weee bit more next week.. we will see.. I know the vets said she should be kept quiet in between her walks... but it just seems to me the more easy movement the stronger...or maybe in this case, Dr. O, more is not better.. ?????
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
kbr1
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 10, 2007 - 3:47 pm:
Ann, when the vet checked the injury out he labeled it a 'bow', she was very lame for a few weeks (she was on bute), but she has had no lameness issues in months. The swelling went down considerably from what is was orginally. I will try to get someone to an ultrasound on her to find out exactly the deal. I purchased a small portable corral but haven't tried it out yet.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 4:31 pm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkTJh5GryCw
Taken today.. I think it would have been better if my husband had her marching out , but he is a little tentative re walking her.. which i understand, as she is known to explode for no reason out of the blue..
What i see, even tho she is over tracking is that there IS irregularity in her stride i think its on the stretch behind her ? Any comments please, are welcomed..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 7:32 pm:
I see the irregularity, but it looks like she's lost her flop walk! ... has she? To my very uneducated eye, I would call this video an improvement! Baby steps? I hope!
Is she resting one leg more than the other? Any heat?
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Jul 15, 2007 - 7:54 pm:
Aileen, there is a tad bit of a flop, but NOTHING like before.. she will stand square but I notice that when eating she will pull that leg up under her belly more... When asking her to back up she will drag that hoof more so then the other.. No heat, there is still some swelling, but I have a feeling she will always have one leg larger then the other..
I agree over all an improvement.. I am just wondering if we are on course after 8 1/2 months of rest / rehabbing.. ? I wonder if we are taking it to cautiously?
That is my sassy filly for sure..
** I would say your eye is pretty educated with all the watching and observing you have done..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
warwick
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Posted on Tuesday, Jul 17, 2007 - 9:19 pm:
Ann, I've been off the board for seemingly months and months due to time constraints and just caught up on your thread. Between your Danni and Sara's Libby, I've had a lot of reading to catch up on! I'm so glad to see your lovely mare coming along so well as is Sara's.
I think between the three of us - not sure if you remember but I had leg surgeries on two of mine in a 12-month span - I think we could have financed a complete new surgery!
So happy for you.
Sue
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Member:
corinne
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 1:03 am:
Welcome back Sue! We missed you~
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Jul 18, 2007 - 11:00 am:
oh yes Sue.. rehabbing a horse takes TIME and DEDICATION no way of getting around it.. It also takes creativity and patience! It takes a person physically fit to keep up with the slow walking increases.. It takes strong emotional well being as well.. and most important a deep pocket book or good credit..
Thanks for checking in..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
warwick
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Posted on Thursday, Jul 19, 2007 - 10:59 am:
Thanks, Corinne, have lots more catch up reading still to do. Will PM you later.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 10:17 am:
Dr. O a question.. last night
...Danni could not stand it , she has not been ugly or really crazy on her walks.. so she pulled a stupid trick last night... i took her out, not aced...( been trying to get her out twice a day once in the AM for an hour walk, PM for a stroll) she WAS being a sweet happy easy horse... till THE BEE sting.. she went sh*t nuts... must have made 50 laps around me trotting... ** oh a lovely BIG trot i might add * snorting , rearing / stomping.. i had to chase her into the fence to change directions as she was loading the bad leg around me... she then continued her laps.... ugh.. after i settled her down... she kicked her belly twice with her bad leg... was she kicking it up cus it hurt... or cus she was sweating and itchy.., or was she wanting to do her stomp i am mad thing????? Anyway she walked back to the barn fine.. i gave her two grams of bute / massaged it and iced her again.... no more swelling then her norm... she is not sore to touch.. today she looks good as well..
its been over 10 months , my thoughts are she is mended and now has to strengthen,... with another year of that... phewww.. i sure hope she did not do anymore tears... most likely a micro tear or two .. maybe a release of an adhesion ...
today i won't walk her.. think she got enough impact last night... will resume tomorrow with her..
Question: after 10 months is the severed tendon knitted back together now.. ? Her next ultrasound is not till the 25th of this month..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 16, 2007 - 12:59 pm:
Ugh, a rehab worst nightmare!! I know only too well how it feels to have a rehabbing horse wizz around at a thousand miles an hour as you stand by helplessly and watch with your heart stuck up in your throat.
I hope that Danni is OK and that this doesn't do her any damage or set her recovery back at all. Keeping my fingers crossed for her....
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 17, 2007 - 12:29 am:
Ann, that is not a question that can be answered without an ultrasound but certainly the soundness you describe suggests that is indeed the case.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 - 3:18 pm:
into the 11th month, ultrasound recheck:
....The deep digital flexor tendon above the fetlock had significantly improved in both size and fiber pattern at both measured locations.. The lacerated tendon continues to organize and improve in echogenicity in the pastern region, though the shape and size of the tendon is still very abnormal....
Please begin adding 10-15 mins of riding at the walk in addition to 40 minutes of handwalking.. You can increase the ratio of riding at the walk by 5 mins each week over the next 8 weeks .. Once is moved to the lay up facility, * i am taking her end of Oct. *, she can start doing a few minutes of trotting each day and increase this by 5 mins every other week..
My egg shell walking with her is paying off.. I have jumped thru hoops in keeping her happy and quiet , no small job i might add.. I was told that i could allow a few yahoo's in the beginning of getting her out every day in her 14X14 , as is i have only been able to take her out on weekends when my husband is here to help me bring her in and the baby sitter.. she gets very upset if she does not come in AT THE SAME TIME... so yesterday we tried it.. My heart can't take it.. she went crazy in that 14X14 and walking her back to the barn was NO cake walk.. she reared / dbl barrel bucked and gigged the whole way in.. I know she is knitting back but she is not strong enough to with stand that kind of work for how every long it will take her to settle in to a routine.. SO we are back to what worked.. hand walking and staying in her 12X24 stall ..
I won't be climbing up on her.. she had only 45 days under saddle when this happened.. she is HIGH OCTANE to say the least.. * thus her injury*.. so i guess i will just walk her daily for the 70+ mins till she goes to rehab..
Does that sound reasonable DR. O.. ??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 - 7:38 pm:
Gee,Ann, I don't understand why you aren't climbing right up on her! Sounds like a lot of fun!
This sounds like a really good report; I hope she continues to mend.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 - 8:19 pm:
hum, lets see 17'3hhs tall, with a piss poor attitude about most anything right now.. been stall bound for almost a full 11 months.. I don't know Sara, it just does not sound like my kind of riding.. B R O N C ... and i don't think i could put a heavy western saddle on top of her back.. as is.. i have to stand on my toes to groom her~!
Am a little concern about the last line on the report tho..''though the shape and size of the tendon is still very abnormal''....
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.. }
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 - 9:07 pm:
See what Dr. O says about it, but to my undereducated mind that doesn't sound so awful; I'd expect some scar tissue which would change the shape and size (thickness??) of the tendon.
I bought a western Wintec the other day to train in; it's wonderfully light, about the same weight as a hunt saddle I think.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 - 9:37 pm:
Wintec, are they balanced on the horse.. ? I found that when i rode in one .. only once .... it did not feel balanced on my horse.. felt like i could make it lean one way or the other pretty easily.. !~
thanks for the encouragement.. I think you are right about the scar tissue.. i hope with time, it will organize better and the scar tissue will become less of an issue...
i can dream can't i.. ??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, Aug 27, 2007 - 10:54 pm:
re: Wintecs. It may depend on the coformation of the horse and the size or type of the saddle. I usually use my Wintec all purpose, which I've had for many years, on a short backed kind of roly poly type Arab. I love it on her. The western saddle I've only used a couple of times so far but have liked it. My trainer has a Wintec dressage saddle that feels good to me when I've used it on the stallions a couple of different times. It doesn't, however, have the balance and feel of my Stuben. I doubt any synthetic saddle could replace a good, well made leather saddle just because of the materials used and workmanship. It's like riding in a cheaper leather saddle. Not to sound "snooty" but you can sure tell the difference between those cheaply made "beginer's package" and the more expensive saddles, not just in balance but over all comfort for both rider and horse.
I like the Wintec because I don't mind the girls that clean stalls and help out part time using them to ride, and I don't mind taking them out on the trail when conditions are muddy. Also, when going on a quick ride I can just throw it on the horse, throw horse in trailer, drive then unload and ride and trailer home. I'd never do that with my good saddles. And...when you're tired they weigh so little to throw on the horse.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 9:49 am:
The one thing I would prefer Ann, is 3 weeks intervals between each step up in exercise as this allows for strengthening for the next step but otherwise seems fine. Considering we recommend 15 minute increases, a weekly increase of 5 minutes is very similar.
DrO
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 11:00 am:
Good news Ann!!! Let me know when and I'll bring my western for you to try
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Aug 28, 2007 - 4:19 pm:
Dr. O In time and slow conservative rehab, can the severed tendon regain shape and organized fiber pattern??
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Aug 29, 2007 - 7:37 am:
No Ann, it will never be like the original tendon. The problem is that tenocytes, the cells that make up the tendon do not replicate well. Instead the tissue heals by fibrosis, this is where the blood clot is eventually organized into scar. Careful work does improve the appearance and strength of this scar by having a fiber pattern that is more organized along lines of force.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Aug 30, 2007 - 8:56 am:
Thanks Dr. O, you explained simply for me to understand...
The surgeon said that she felt that my filly will still be able to have a performance career. Of course she added that healing was a portion of the process, her mind and keeping her safe is the other ...
Have you experianced a horse comeing back from such a grave injury to a performance career?
On the first day God created horses , on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Aug 31, 2007 - 11:11 am:
Ann, without examining your horse I cannot really prognose the outcome and even with exam it is hard to predict: horses seem to have very different abilities to heal tendon injuries. This is a well recognized yet poorly understood observation.
Serious injuries to the tendons of adults usually decrease the performance level the horse can stay sound at but how much this might effect your horse I do not know.
DrO
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 24, 2007 - 10:53 pm:
Well Danni is at her rehab barn, the first week we just had her on the equis-cisor for 45 mins of walk.. Remember i have been hand walking her 60-70 mins a day at home.. The second week we started her on her program of 30 mins in the AM at the walk , then out to a 14X14 turn out.. In the PM she is put on the exercisor for 15 mins at the walk then 5 mins of trot to 10 mins of walk .. I watched her go today .. It did my heart good to see 1) her such a good girl and not the sassy filly she can be & 2) that her trot looks good , no suspension but sound! No flop or shortness in stride..
Of course this is the first week and i worry so much, good thing she is gone .. she is so out of shape that the trot work was very tiring she was actually winded slightly.. Of course she is in full winter coat and it was 87+ degrees out I wanted to scream ENOUGH,... I do realize tho that for her to get stronger and more fit we have to bump her up.. It will be a whole year Oct.27th since that awful night.
Her leg looked good after, no heat or tenderness..
OH wouldn't it be just grand if I could have a riding mare out of her..?
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 25, 2007 - 7:20 am:
Ann keeping fingers crossed for a riding mare, from the sounds of her I'm glad I don't have to back her How long does she stay at the rehab barn?
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 25, 2007 - 7:35 am:
I'll keep my fingers crossed, too, Ann, for a riding horse. Best wishes for the remainder of Danni's rehab!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 25, 2007 - 9:29 am:
Diane, she will be there thru the wet months, so guessing 4 months.. I wanted her settled before we left for Cancun, thus i took her mid Oct..
I feel she will be a lovely horse to ride once she is able to be a horse again.. her sassy behavior is from being a baby when injured and stalled for a year not being able to move about..and protecting her sore leg.. I am willing to bet she is going to be cake under saddle..
I WILL wear my helmet and start in a round pen having said all that
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Friday, Oct 26, 2007 - 4:53 pm:
This sounds like really good news, Ann. You two have really "been through the mill." I'm glad you have Danni at the rehab farm so you can get a break. I'll look forward to seeing pictures of you two riding.
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Friday, Dec 14, 2007 - 8:43 pm:
Dr. O don't know if you will get to this before tomorrow AM but I
went out to the rehab barn to see my filly go today.. She has been doing GREAT!~ This week she was bumped up to 20 mins of trot work.. I wonder if it is too much...? She was short at the walk.. less noticeable at the trot? I called the clinic and they are squeezing us in tomorrow for an ultrasound.. she is due and I need to see if this is a set back as in a small tear or if we are bumping her up to fast.. we are entering very soon her 14th month of rehabbing..
I know I have been lucky thus far , that she has not gotten away from me in hand walking .. and I have been more or less able to keep her quiet with a ton of egg shell walking in the barn and bringing in and out baby sitters to help her..
I should count my blessings that she is even with us and able to walk / trot .. as the surgeon said that awful night... '' we can try , or put her down now '' ..
My question right now is her shoe.. I have not liked the way she lands on that hoof at the walk now for a while.. She is only in a eggbar set slightly back.. What i see tho is that she tends to land heal first with what i say is a slight toe up, not a flip..
I am wondering if a egg bar with a slight wedge again would be helpful.. ?? What are your thoughts?
Wish me luck gang that there is no tears and that she is just being pushed to fast..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 7:57 am:
I do indeed wish you tons of luck. This rehabbing is always so nerve-wracking, but you've come a LONG way, and I have my fingers crossed that all is still well, or that at very worst she just needs to go a little slower.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 11:19 am:
Wishing you tons of luck, Ann!!!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 11:23 am:
Increased lameness, no matter the US results suggests moving back one or two levels of rehad and slow the advance. As to the wedge if you add more heel won't the heel hit even earlier? Considering the injury the heel first landing might be indicative of good support of the tendon. How does the foot balance look while standing, for more on this see our articles on trimming and balance of the foot in the Horse Care - Hoof Care section.
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 12:48 pm:
Good Luck Ann, will be hoping for good news.
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 3:25 pm:
I too wish you the best luck with your girl
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 5:32 pm:
We are back.. '' The ultrasound showed a mild improvement in the size of the deep flexor tendon at the upper level with no change at the mid-level. the ultrasound of the pastern showed continued improvement in the echogenicity and fiber patter.. The ultrasound did not show any evidence of a new injury...
So that being said... we are going to bring her back down to 30 mins twice a day of walking for the next two weeks then start again at the trot with 10 total and working our way back up to 30 mins a day..
My understanding is that when there are adhesions being pulled that for the non stoic horse will cause some discomfort... Now to decide what is too much? My gelding with the broken hoofs will do most anything for you on sore feet and barely show it.. I have a felling that Danni is a puss when it comes to pain and will SCREAM OUCH with every step..
Anyway I am more then happy that there is not a new injury or a set back per say.. I knew this would be a long rehab, two years is what i had marked in my mind..
Dr. O , thank you for the shoe support.. Vet agrees with what you had said.. We will see how she does and if we need to at some point try a small wedge.. but that is a last ditch kind of move for us right now.. Of course if she stills says OUCH.. we do some blocking to see if this injury is what is causing it or if something else from a year in a stall has developed..
Over all count me HAPPY..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 6:16 pm:
Ann so GLAD to hear that!!!!! It's always frustrating when they backslide. Don't you just love wuss horses.
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Member:
sswiley
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 15, 2007 - 9:43 pm:
This is all good news! I think wussy horses are great as long as you know they are wussy. You deserve to get through this with the best possible results. Keep following your good instincts !
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 16, 2007 - 12:10 am:
Keep at it, Ann. You are still doing a great job with Danni. It will all be worth it. I still worry about Libby and am so afraid she will hurt herself somehow. We are still handwalking her (your not alone!) but she is also up to being turned out in a large turnout, about 60' x 100'. She is actually very careful not to overdue, but I cringe everytime she gives a little bounce. It sounds like Dannie is making good progress in spite of your misgivings. I wish these things didn't take so long! Jos left us a bottle of French Champagne for Libby. I haven't let her have it yet. I think she should share it with Danni....or, better yet, we'll give Libby and Danni a couple of carrots and we'll down the champagne! You certainly deserve at least that!
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 16, 2007 - 5:39 am:
That's great, Ann! And I so agree that wussy is good - at least you find out something's going on at an early stage!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 16, 2007 - 11:19 am:
Sara WE WILL ALWAYS worry about these girls.. we have become obsessive compulsive equine care givers..
DR.O in thinking that just maybe other parts are bothering her now as well, I think i will start her on the Adequan 7 shot series.. My understanding is that this will also benefit her soft tissue injury too.. ?? Is that so? Dr. Carol Gilus recommends the shots to all her patients..
Also Dr. O .. should i be concern at how slow the tendon seems to be mending? Or is this slow wins the race????
This won't be fun giving her the injections , she is A BUGGER now about shots since all the IV's have been given to her.. ugh.. at 17'3+ hhs tall it makes for a who can hold up there hand / head higher longer battle while spinning in circles..
Thanks gang for all the well wishes..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
sunny66
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 16, 2007 - 3:14 pm:
Great news Ann
Ask Dr. Gillis if she's had any success with Recovery EQ, it's supposed to help with tendon issues... no shots, but expensive. I know Brave has different issues, though I do believe his ddft was strained from his underrun heels. Just a thought... I'm very happy for you
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 16, 2007 - 5:12 pm:
Ann, I do not know any work that supports the often heard notion that the group of joint support medications and nutraceuticals are beneficial for tendon or ligament injuries with the possible but unknown exception of when there is a tendon sheath involved.
DrO
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 16, 2007 - 9:49 pm:
Ann,
The folks at Alamo Pintado recommended a silica supplement for my horse's tendon injury. You need to make sure it's bio-available. I'm using a supplement from Smart Pak, I'll have to look for the exact name, but it's one of the Smart Flex ones. Platinum Performance also has one called Osteon.
Good Luck!
Chris
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2007 - 6:48 am:
Hello Chris,
I cannot find any logical reason for recommending silica supplementation for tendon injuries. Did they comment on why they make such a recommendation?
DrO
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2007 - 8:31 am:
Hi Dr. O,
It was something along the lines of silicon being an "essential trace element that is important in the formation of articular cartilage and connective tissue". I should have said silicon in my previous post instead of silica (silicon dioxide).
I realize that this was a topic of discussion in March of this year. I don't really have any real scientific sources, but am compelled to go on the advice of the clinic for this one.
Chris
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2007 - 11:33 am:
My purpose here is not to argue against the recommendation you received Chris but to present how little is known about supplementation in the horses diet and its effect on health and healing. We have some information on silicon and bone health in our article on "Minerals and Nutrition" and there is much information about it and bone health. I can find one reference to connective tissue health (see below). One mechanism appears to connect it to the formation or activity of certain protein forming enzymes.
I can find nothing about silicon content of common foodstuffs of horses but in humans the one study I can find suggests that silicon is abundant in solid foods in the human diet and it has good bioavailability (see below). Lastly I can find evidence to warn against excess intake though in the case presented the excess was large and other factors may have contributed to the problem (see below).
There is no doubt this is an experimental use and look forward to being able to find more information in the future. I am interested Chris in how much silicon they recommend for supplementation?
DrO
Biol Trace Elem Res. 2002 Dec;89(3):251-61.
Silicon deprivation decreases collagen formation in wounds and bone, and ornithine transaminase enzyme activity in liver.
Seaborn CD, Nielsen FH.
University of Wisconsin-Stout, Menomonie, WI, USA.
We have shown that silicon (Si) deprivation decreases the collagen concentration in bone of 9-wk-old rats. Finding that Si deprivation also affects collagen at different stages in bone development, collagen-forming enzymes, or collagen deposition in other tissues would have implications that Si is important for both wound healing and bone formation. Therefore, 42 rats in experiment 1 and 24 rats in experiment 2 were fed a basal diet containing 2 or 2.6 microg Si/g, respectively, based on ground corn and casein, and supplemented with either 0 or 10 microg Si/g as sodium metasilicate. At 3 wk, the femur was removed from 18 of the 42 rats in experiment 1 for hyDrOxyproline analysis. A polyvinyl sponge was implanted beneath the skin of the upper back of each of the 24 remaining rats. Sixteen hours before termination and 2 wk after the sponge had been implanted, each rat was given an oral dose of 14C-proline (1.8 microCi/100 g body wt). The total amount of hyDrOxyproline was significantly lower in the tibia and sponges taken from Si-deficient animals than Si-supplemented rats. The disintegrations per minute of 14C-proline were significantly higher in sponge extracts from Si- deficient rats than Si-supplemented rats. Additional evidence of aberrations in proline metabolism with Si deprivation was that liver ornithine aminotransferase was significantly decreased in Si-deprived animals in experiment 2. Findings of an increased accumulation of 14C-proline and decreased total hyDrOxyproline in implanted sponges and decreased activity of a key enzyme in proline synthesis (liver ornithine aminotransferase) in Si-deprived animals indicates an aberration in the formation of collagen from proline in sites other than bone that is corrected by Si. This suggests that Si is a nutrient of concern in wound healing as well as bone formation.
Am J Clin Nutr. 2002 May;75(5):887-93.
Dietary silicon intake and absorption.
Jugdaohsingh R, Anderson SH, Tucker KL, Elliott H, Kiel DP, Thompson RP, Powell JJ.
Gastrointestinal Laboratory, The Rayne Institute, St Thomas' Hospital, London, UK. ravin.jugdaohsingh@kcl.ac.uk
BACKGROUND: Increasing evidence suggests that silicon is important in bone formation. The main source of silicon for humans is the diet, but the bioavailability of silicon from solid foods is not well understood. OBJECTIVE: We estimated the dietary intake of silicon by adults, separately for men and women and for different age groups. Foods that were major contributors to silicon intake were identified. We then estimated the gastrointestinal uptake of silicon from major food sources and studied how uptake correlated with the silicon contents of the foods. DESIGN: Silicon intakes were determined in cohorts from the original Framingham Study and the Framingham Offspring Study by using a 126-item food-frequency questionnaire. Gastrointestinal uptake of silicon from foods was estimated in 3-8 healthy subjects by using urinary silicon excretion as a surrogate measure of silicon uptake. RESULTS: Mean silicon intakes in men (30 and 33 mg/d in the original Framingham and Framingham Offspring cohorts, respectively) were significantly higher than those in women (24 and 25 mg/d in the 2 cohorts, respectively; P = 0.0001). Silicon intake decreased with age (P < 0.001, adjusted for sex). The major food sources were beer and bananas in men and bananas and string beans in women. Silicon was readily available from foods; a mean of 41% of the ingested silicon was excreted in urine. The silicon content of the foods consumed was significantly correlated with urinary silicon excretion (P = 0.019). CONCLUSIONS: Solid foods are a major source of available silicon. The association between dietary silicon intake and bone health should now be investigated.
Vet Res Commun. 2002 Aug;26(6):437-42.
Silica urolithiasis in the DrOmedary camel in a subtropical climate.
Gutierrez C, Corbera JA, Doreste F, Padrón TR, Morales M.
Veterinary Faculty, Universidad de Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Canary Islands, Spain. carlosg@infovia.ulpgc.es
In 1998, two cases of silica urolithiasis occurred in castrated male DrOmedaries on an intensive camel farm in the Canary Islands. The immediate attributable cause was the ingestion of large amounts of silica in the feed, estimated as 84.44 g/day. An associated cause was the low level of salt in the diet. Daily ingestion of salt from feed and water was estimated to be 21.8 g (8.6 g of sodium). Seventy-six castrated males from the same farm were divided into four groups: group A received 30 g of salt daily; group B received 40 g; group C received 60 g; and group D received no added salt in the diet (control). The animals were maintained on these dietary regimes for 2 years. No animals from groups A, B or C suffered overt urinary retention. One animal from group D had an obstructive urinary retention 10 months after the study commenced. Thus, 52 g of salt daily appears to be sufficient to prevent urinary retention in DrOmedaries raised in a subtropical climate.
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2007 - 1:44 pm:
Dr. O,
Here are the references provided on the Platinum Performance webpage.
references
Calomme MR, Vanden Berghe DA. Supplementation of calves with stabilized orthosilicic acid. Effect on the Si, Ca, Mg, and P concentrations in serum and the collagen concentration in skin and cartilage. Biol Trace Elem Res 1997;56:153-65.
Frey K.S., et al. Plasma Silicon and Radiographic Bone Density in Weanling Quarter Horses Fed Sodium Zeolite A1. JEVS. 1992; 12(5): 292-296.
Carlisle E.M. In Vivo Requirement for Silicon in Articular Cartilage and Connective Tissue Formation in the Chick. J. Nutr. 1976; 106:478-484.
Carlisle E.M. A silicon requirement for normal skull formation in chicks. J Nutr. 1980 Feb;110(2):352-9.
Seaborn CD, Nielson FH. Effects of germanium and silicon on bone mineralization. Bio Trace Element Res 1994; 42: 151-164.
Carlisle EM. Silicon. Nutr Rev. 1975 Sept; 33(9): 257-261.
Carlisle EM. Silicon as an essential element. Fed Proc 1972 Nov 10; 33(6): 1758-1766.
Carlisle EM. Biochemical and morphological changes associated with long bone abnormalities in silicon deficiency. J Nutr. 1980 May;110(5):1046-56.
Einhorn TA, Levine B, Michel P. Nutrition and bone. Orthopedic Clinics of North America 1990 Jan; 21(1): 43-50.
Mumpton FA, Fishman PH. The application of natural zeolites in animal science and aquaculture. J Anim Sci 1977; 45(5): 1188-1203.
Mahan LK, Escott-Stump S. Food, Nutrition, and Diet Therapy: Trace Elements- Requirements Undefined: Silicon. W.B. Saunders Company. Philadelphia.
So, silicon is good for chick skulls but bad for camel urinary tracts??
I have some additional information at home that I received via email since they don't seem to put the guaranteed analysis on either the product bucket or the web site. I do realize that most of these references have nothing to do with tendons in horses.
I truly appreciate your thoughts on this. Honestly, I did chuckle when I got my discharge papers and they included recommendation for 3 different Platinum Performance products. The founder of the clinic is also the founder of Platinum Performance. A bit cheesy, but it is a great clinic.
Chris
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Member:
sureed
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Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2007 - 6:06 pm:
Ann,
I didn't know you were going through this. I hope it all turns out alright. What a long haul it has been for you and Danni. I will be taking my TB stallion Helms to Loomis to see how his bow is looking after two years off. I look forward to comparing notes as we create a plan to put him back to work (every so lightly to begin)if they believe he is up to it.
Suzanne
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Monday, Dec 17, 2007 - 9:00 pm:
Dr. O,
I can't quite find the information I was looking for, however, the PP website only lists natural zeolite as the ingredient for Osteon. The literature states that zeolite is "more than 60% silicon" and the recommended dose is 90g twice daily so it looks like the daily recommended dose is at least 180g*.60 = 108g daily if that is the only ingredient.
If this is correct it's a higher dose than in the camel paper you cite above.
The literature also has a bar graph showing the Plasma Silicon Level (micrograms/liter) to be nearly 4 times higher in the "Osteon Supplementation Group" compared to the control group (n=15 in both groups).
I'll continue to look for the other information I received from PP.
Chris
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 18, 2007 - 8:24 am:
Wow Chris, I did not expect that the supplementation would be that high.
Research has always shown supplementation increase blood levels of silicon in all species it has been studied. What it does not show that this is increase in blood levels is beneficial for healing any tissue. In humans 40% of the ingested silicon in a non-supplemented diet is excreted (urine) strongly suggesting to me that the normal amount received by a normal diet is in excess over what the body uses (see the second reference in my post above). Whether supplemented diets are therapeutic remains unknown and there are reasons to be concerned about excessively high doses.
DrO
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 18, 2007 - 9:51 am:
Yeah, it's a little scary. I'm going to call and see if I can verify that information with the company. As I mention above, I derived that number from the information available.
I did find the analysis of several other products containing silicon and it looks like the dose there is around 2640mg per dose.
I'm currently feeding Smart Flex Repair which has 500mg of orthosilic acid (silica).
Thanks for the sanity check.
Chris
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 - 8:13 pm:
 
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5w3Lf_s110
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6jfcecqZXs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAaFvN8Z3FA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT2r-sOAdxY
If you are interested here is video done today on Utube.. Not great but you can see her go..
the first two are with husband walking... she was to interested in all else other then walking.. when she is relaxed she over tracks by a hoof and a half.. you can see it toward the end
the last two are on the mill.. hard to video .. but the last one is better at seeing her irregular hip movement..
what do ya think???
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 22, 2007 - 11:33 pm:
Wow Ann. Honestly I think she looks great. And under the circumstances (looking around, wandering on her track etc.), it's impossible for me to see anything I would call out as a lameness. Maybe Dr. O will be able to see more clearly. Her attitude also seems wonderful.
And btw, you didn't mention she was a mini.... Holy crap that girl got big!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 - 9:57 am:
Elizabeth, she has calmed down HUGELY once she was able to come out of the stall again.. She had lived her whole life outside, then she was injured as a 3 year old and had to be completely stall confined, I understood her naughty behavior, my '' friends'' did not .. and true to form, once she was able to get out and move she has become a much easier to deal with SASSY PANTS
She also grew while standing in her stall that year 4 + inches!!!
I think some of the 'twist' i see in her hips is from just being over all sore and stiff.. Doing the Adequane shots now, next will have a PT come out before i start riding her again in March!!!
I personally am amazed she is moving as well as she is considering all that she did to herself
Thanks for looking ..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 - 11:13 am:
Heh, yeah well: not sure I'd want to take that first ride back, calmed down or not!
I think some of what you're calling "twist" may be just the normal gawkiness of a large young warmblood, accentuated by standing around in recovery. She has a lot of filling out to do in the next 2-3 years, so part of what I see on the video is just that more of the "mechanics" are visible than is normal in a mature horse. They are slow to grow up, aren't they? What's her prognosis for riding soundness from the surgeon? She sure is a beauty.
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 - 1:07 pm:
She's lovely, Ann. What a remarkable job you've done getting her to this point in her recovery. Congratulations and give yourself a big pat on the back!
I hope all continues to go well!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 23, 2007 - 6:15 pm:
Really wasn't a prognosis at the time.. it was 'try or die' .. surgeon did say it was up to her and how she handled all the 'stuff' we had to do to her and the stall rest.. That he felt the surgery part went well, of course later on did we realize that she also had a blunt force injury to same tendon further up her leg.. We were focused the severed part of course.. So she is dealing with the lower DDFT and also mid DDFT to heal.. .. Its been a very long rocky road she and i have traveled.. and i know we are not done yet.. .. With just the slight glimmer of recovery , this has all been worth the time / $$ / and lessons learned..
Thanks for the support and allowing me to share..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
pbauer
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 25, 2007 - 6:24 pm:
Dear Ann,
The pictures and the youtube video sends a clear message of hope to everyone that has had, and will have this type of injury to their beloved companion. And with all your prayers and hard work...I can think of no one more deserving!
Your baby is a real beauty! Thank you for keeping all of us updated.
By the way...it was neat to hear your voice on the youtube videos!
My Very Best,
Tonya
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 - 7:48 am:
I find it very hard to evaluate an uneven walk Ann, many horses sound at the trot have an irregular walk so don't know if this is significant or not.
DrO
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Member:
stevens
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Posted on Friday, Dec 28, 2007 - 9:32 am:
Finally found the "official" Platinum Performance flyer on Osteon; the guaranteed analysis is 90,000mg of zeolite (contains 64.7% SiO2) so we're looking at 58230mg of silicon dioxide per scoop or 116460mg per day.
Sorry for the delay.
Chris
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 29, 2007 - 10:36 am:
About the same as you give further up Chris and still a whopping load.
DrO
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