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  Discussion on How much ace to give to a warmblood?
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New Member:
devonhil

Posted on Sunday, Feb 11, 2007 - 10:34 am:

We have a gelding who was kicked just below the elbow joint. After several weeks of stall rest we started him back to work.
At first we injected 1 cc of ace 30 minutes before turning him out in a small arena and have progressed to where he is trotting in a large paddock for at least two hours a day. The ground is frozen so the horse doesn't "let loose"
About three weeks ago we started to ride him in a small indoor arena where he was bucking/hopping at the canter. We give him IM one cc of ace 30 minutes before tacking him up and by 40 minutes you can see his eye turn glassy.
OUr problem is that we now are riding him in a larger arena where the footing is softer, not frozen, and more room for him to work. The last two rides have been difficult with him wanting to buck 20 or more times. We have lounged him and turned him out in a smaller arena where the footing is hard as a rock due to our temps in the teens so the horse knows he can't let loose. Instead of giving him the 1cc I would like to increase the dose by a half and dose him with 1.5cc. He weighs about 1300 to 1400 lbs.
What do you think would help ? A higher dose? A longer weight period? Do I need to just increase by 0.5cc until we find the correct dose to take the edge off?
We are in a winter freeze area . We tried not to ace him and this was a huge mistake. We also can not turn him out or lounge him in the bigger arena where the footing is great cause the barn rules do not allow this. We are boarders and I was firmly warned never to lounge in their new large indoor arena. I must respect the barn rules.
My daughter rides the beast and I know the horse just needs to gallop, roll, and buck like a wild beast. I would love help since I was left with a 50cc bottle and ten syringes but no guidelines. I learned how to give IM by hitting the internet.
Member:
stevens

Posted on Sunday, Feb 11, 2007 - 11:59 am:

Can't help with the dosage, suggest you ask the vet that left it with you.

I'm curious as to what this fellow is eating. He's obviously a big boy, my boy's 17.2 and 1200 pounds. You may want to consider decreasing the energy in his diet.

Is your daughter able to keep him at a walk? If so, if she can walk him for a long time, 20-30 minutes, before any trot or canter work that may help. If she can keep him at the trot, you may want to just trot and not canter since he's coming off lay up. Changes of pace and direction can also help keep his mind on business.

Good luck.
Chris
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 6:08 am:

Welcome devonhil,
Though I cannot recommend the safety of this procedure and if you have weighed the pros and cons and decided this is the safest way to approach this problem, a 1/2cc increase in a horse this big is unlikely to make a lot of difference and you are starting at less than what is recommended in the article for this purpose, considering your horses weight.

I would add a cc each time until I got the desired effect: a quiet horse that remains coordinated enough to be safely ridden. The article gives optimal wait times following administration.

Chris's points are good and their is more information on this topic at, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Stall Resting Horses.
DrO
New Member:
devonhil

Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 11:19 am:

"a quiet horse that remains coordinated enough to be safely ridden." is the goal.

As soon as the injury occurred I lowered his grain. Since we live in a very cold area we need the grain to keep weight on the boy. I would unblanket completely twice a week to see if he was becoming fat from the stall rest or DrOpping weight since we have had temperatures in the single digits for several weeks.
We rode him in a small arena to have "control" but the footing here is hard as ice. When we took him to the bigger indoor we would keep him in a quarter section. At a walk the boy was trying to stretch and buck. We have been approaching this carefully and slowly. At first he was manageable with just a cc of ace but since he feels great and the footing is so nice at a walk /trot is not want he wants and we ride him in a small section.

We have considered Chris' thoughts and do keep to a plan. As for vet advice, I have called him six times in two weeks asking what I should do.

So I am placing my child on a horse who is feeling very good while giving IM shots wondering what is the appropriate dose and how long will the effect take and last. I will reread the ace article again. I will read the article on stall rest horses. I also have made a diary listing how long the ace takes to work, how long it lasts, and how long we work the horse and what type of work he has done.
I do thank you for posting cause I no longer feel alone in handling the problem and I need to care for both the horse and my child's safety. I am also going to verify the horse's weight.

MY fear is seeing the horse stumble from sedation while the child is on him. Hey, I know one martini is my limit. I will post what my horse's preferred cocktail is.
Member:
stevens

Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 7:05 pm:

devonhill,

Best of luck to you; I certainly don't envy you this situation. I hope it all works out well and safely for everyone.

Chris
Member:
jockyrdg

Posted on Monday, Feb 12, 2007 - 7:33 pm:

Hello Devon,
I see you also live in the Garden State. Following on Chris' good advice, check what he is eating again. Grain is not going to keep him warm and from losing weight to the cold - hay will. Increasing hay, particularly when the temps go into the 20's helps to keep them warm and occupied when there isn't much else going on. Adding oil will also increase the calories with less excitement. You might want to discuss your feed with Dr. Sarah Ralston at Rutger's Equine department - your tax dollars are supporting the work there and she is most helpful to the natives. Good luck. Your daughter's safety has to be the major focus here, not everyone's bravery.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 7:27 am:

Remember that while most horses have a place where they can remain calm without becoming stumbly not all do: the area where you reach calm overlaps a significant stumbling dose. And while an adult experimenting with this is one thing, I would have the same butterflies you do with a child.

Considering your concerns in your last post devonhill perhaps a professional to get the wild beast tamed again? Or even better how about move to a place this horse can get out and let loose for a few days before riding?
DrO
New Member:
devonhil

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 3:02 pm:

I have ridden the boy twice since posting and found that doing the following has made the sedation more effective.
I retaped the boy and found he weighed less than told by my vet .
I increased the dose to 1.5cc of ACE and increased the time to an hour before starting any activity. An hour after I had IM the sedative I tacked him up . We were able to do flatwork for an hour without any major issues. Oh he had some life to his stride but this was manageable.

I needed to find the correct dose without having the horse dragging his tail and still have muscle coordination.
THanks for the help.
Member:
stevens

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 4:44 pm:

Congratulations!! Good luck on the road to recovery with him.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 7:02 am:

Delighted that you found a working dose. What did he tape at devonhil?
DrO
Member:
kbr1

Posted on Thursday, Feb 15, 2007 - 8:01 pm:

I read the article on 'Stall Rest' and the use of ace. I have a 7 year old Arab/App that has a bowed tendon (low bow). She has been confined to the stall, something I only usually do at feeding time. She did pretty well for the first week then she started getting worked up during the day when the other two left her. My vet gave me ace to give her, he said up to 3cc's but to give it to her orally. What would be the reason to give an injection v/s orally (with my horse I know she hates injections). I stayed home from work today and gave her only 1cc, I may need to up it a little bit. She is on the small side. This stall rest situation is really difficult, we go out for very short walks in the afternoons. Hopefully she can have a small (12x12) paddock area soon.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 7:09 am:

Oral use will have a slower onset of action, a longer duration of sedation, and less "peak" sedation.
DrO
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