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  Discussion on Naproxen Update
Author Message
New Member:
lzieman

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 3:56 pm:

For anyone wanting to try Naproxen, but shying away because of price, it's on Walmart's $4 generic list (60 500 mg tabs). If I'm doing the math correctly, it amounts to about $20 a month for a 1000 lb horse. With that in mind Dr. O, would you suggest the Naproxen then instead of Bute for high ringbone? Or some kind of alternation between the two?
New Member:
lzieman

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 23, 2007 - 8:35 pm:

I should probably add that he's at least 17, and 2 grams a day of Bute really doesn't seem to help much. The six feet of snow we've received in the last month has actually been more effective than Bute. And since it really doesn't help much, I try to reserve it for the worst days. I would love to be able to keep him nearly pain free 24/7 without risking his health.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 7:28 am:

Wow 20 bucks that is pretty good. It had been a long while since I have seen any work in horses on naproxen so went and checked PubMed only to find no original published work since 1995. We have this and a 1999 review included in our article on naproxen but most of the article is written based on clinical experience. There is some new information however, testing at the race track there has concluded that naproxen accumulates in tissues and is very slow to clear compared to other NSAID's.

This finding underlines how little we know about the drug for long term use, therefore I have nothing to base such a recommendation on. On the other hand it is believed that there is a better therapeutic to toxicity ratio when compared to bute.

Hmmm....if you are going to pursue this you need to get your veterinarian's approval and understand the experimental nature of what you are doing. If I were going to treat one of my horses, and considering this finding of long term storage, I think I would try a loading dose with twice daily treatment for 3 days, then DrOp to once daily therapy for at least a week, then if all was going well experiment with every other day therapy and would feel pretty safe at this level for a long time. Lisa let us know what you decide and if you do switch to naproxen, let us know the results.
DrO
Member:
hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 8:14 am:

Personal experience:

About 5 or 6 years ago, I had a terrible bout of arthritis from Spring and through the summer.
Acetaminophin didn't touch the pain. I took Naproxen . . . 2 in the morning and wouldn't need to take them again for three days. The effects of a double dose (1 is recommended in most cases) lasted a long time for me. Maybe the same in a horse?
Member:
canter

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 4:41 pm:

DrO, what about the potential for ulcers or tummy upset with Naproxen? I know years ago when I was prescribed it for arthritis, I couldn't take it - literally made me sick to my stomach. Recognizing that horses and people have totally different digestive systems, I'm just curious as to what might be potential issues in horses tolerating it.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 24, 2007 - 5:18 pm:

I am afraid that is a potential with any NSAID Fran. Naproxen is considered to have a safer therapeutic to toxicity ratio compared to phenylbutazone. As you discovered there are differences among individuals however.
DrO
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Thursday, Jan 25, 2007 - 2:15 pm:

I have been reading up on Naproxen and think it may be helpful for one of my mares. With so much technical information given here in the articles, I am a little confused about this drug, and would like some help.
Stately Morn is a 16 yr old Thoroughbred with excellent conformation & balance. I'll include a brief history on what I believe to be the initial cause of her problem.

Several years ago, right after giving birth, she got casted (even though the foaling stall was 15x27'). She seemed fine, but as time went on she seemed to be uncomfortable. I had an equine chiropractor out to see her and he did adjust her spine, saying it was out of alignment. I continued (to this day) to go thru basic chiropractic moves with her...pulling her tail straight out, having her bring her head down between her front legs, and having her reach around with her head so her nose touches her shoulder. Most often when she brings her head around to her shoulder, I can hear little popping noises in her neck.
Since that casting episode she has for the most part been a sound mare. She had easy pregnancies and continued to enjoy running and even rearing up when feeling especially good.
Last spring she had a troubled birth, I had to assist and get one foot and the foal's head turned, he then came into the world in fine shape. Thank goodness for barn cameras...mine saved her and the foal's life I am sure. If I didn't have the camera, I would not have gone to check on her until midnight, she has always foaled between 2am & 5am...this time I happened to check the monitor at 9:30pm and she was down...I have no idea how long she had been down and in labor.
Everything after her foal was born was fine...she acted normal in every way...but next morning she was down in a pool of blood and my vet spent 3 days here saving her life...she tore badly and needless to say, was retired from having any more foals.
Statley Morn went thru the spring, summer and early fall of 2006 as normal as can be and her foal was a strong, outstanding colt
...she did take a few weeks to get back to being herself after her ordeal, but that was expected.

Last fall, around the end of Oct. I began to notice she was walking a little sore footed. This got progressivley worse. My vet and farrier were here several times. I had her on Bute or Banamine on and off. My farrier trimmed her and checked for anything a miss. My vet also checked her feet. Her legs were always cool/cold as were her feet.
My farrier did a massage and he determined her trouble was all in her back, shoulders, hip. My vet agreed.
I was still horrified that it was the beginning of laminitus, so we took x-rays. They csme back completley normal with no signs of laminitus or any other abnormalty.

So it seems Statley Morn has 'back' troubles...wether it's the bones or the muscles, I do not know. My farrier seems to think it's a muscle thing, but muscles tense when a horse (or human) is in pain.
I live in Wyoming, so massage is not really done during the cold weather. I plan on getting more massage done on her once it warms up.

As to her condition: her feet are almost always warm to the touch. Her legs are cool, except a small patch of heat in her right knee. She favors her right foot. This is the foot she will keep weight off when standing and will place on the ground rather gingerly when walking. She walks with small steps. She lays down a lot...a lot. When she gets up she will lean back and them straighten up...like a horse with founder, but xrays ect have ruled that out.
Now I feel I just need to manage her pain.

Not wanting to cause ulcers ect, and since Banamine and Bute didn't seem to help anyway, I
am now just starting her on Stop the Pain. It's Devils Claw, Yucca, Boswellia and B-12.
I give it to her orally, 1oz twice a day (can't put it in her feed as I have a pregnant mare and don't want her getting into that Devils Claw)
I'm also 'doing her up' on her legs, ankles and shoulders with Therma Flex gel.

After reading the posts and articles about Naproxen, I would like to know if I can start her on that too. Is it Ok to give it to her along with the Stop the Pain.
Naproxen sounds like it would help her. I read in the article it can be injected and wonder if to start her on this, if it's a good idea to get my vet here to inject it for the 'loading dose' phase. Then I wonder which form of it I should use. I see it listed in several forms, liquid, granuels and powder. I see it listed as naproxen or the Ft Dodge Equiproxen.

Can someone, maybe Dr O. please shed some light on this medicine for me. Is it true I could get it at Wal Mart? Or would the equine formula be more beneficial?
I just need some input so I do right by Stately Morn. This mare is my soul mate.

Thanks so very much.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 6:23 am:

If you choose to use it you should do it with the help and approval of your veterinarian Joanie. The human oral forms will be fine but you will have to check your local WalMart as to availability. We do not recommend mixing with other pain relief drugs.
DrO
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 11:49 am:

Dr.O,
Thanks so much. Needless to say, if we decide to try Naproxen on Stately Morn it will be with my vet's approval, and in fact, I will get the drug thru him and we'll monitor her closely.
If we go this route with her, I will be using the equine version of the Nparoxen...I won't get it at Wal Mart as I want to be certain we're using the correct drug in the correct dose.

I printed out the article information, all 10 pages of it, for my vet to read...won't hurt for him to read up on it, and I know he'll be happy to do that.
He'll be here today to check my other mare, Toy Moon, and we'll discuss starting Stately Morn on the Naproxen.
I'm also going to get my farrier back out here to discuss putting some special shoes with pads on her front feet, maybe that would help her also.

I gather you recommend not giving her the Stop the Pain (Devils Claw & Yucca) while she is on the Naproxen??

Thanks again and i will post back with what we decide to do, and how it works for Stately Morn.
New Member:
lzieman

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 5:10 pm:

I picked up the prescription for the Naproxen today from Wal-Mart. I must correct myself. It is on the $4 generic list, but there are a handful of states, where Wal-Mart is not able to charge so little. It was actually $9 for 60 tabs. I got a bottle of 500 for $75. Still a bargain, as it will last about 3 months. Most of you lucky souls would only pay $32 for the same supply. I'm feeding a dose tonight, and I'll keep you posted as to how it works.
New Member:
lzieman

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 5:16 pm:

Joanie, fyi, naproxen is a prescription medicine. I had to call my vet to get a prescription filled at Wal-Mart. The folks at Wal-Mart told me they fill a bunch of prescriptions for animals. I guess I'm just one of those people that doesn't see the point in paying more for the same thing, but if the fact that it says "horse" on it makes you feel better, go for it.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 5:58 pm:

Lisa,
Thanks... I did realize it's a prescription. The reason I thought I would not get it at Wal Mart, is that it would come in pill form, and it's so hard to 'pill' a horse, even my mares that I can do anything & everything to without even a halter on them.
Can you tell me in what form did you get the naproxen in at Wal Mart, and if it was pills, how'd you manage that?
Just saying 'horse' on something makes no never mind to me...just so long as the human form isn't a battle to give and that the dose is correct.
Maybe you can tell me your experience with all this, includng just how well it worked for your horse? I would very much appreciate any light you can shed on this for me!!

I printed out the entire article on Naproxen that Dr.O has here and gave it to my vet...he is familiar with it, but was happy to have something to read up on first.

Thanks again for your input, Lisa and as I asked...any more info you can throw my way is most welcome.
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 8:13 pm:

At Dr. O's 5 mg/lb. dosing suggestion, I gave my 1100 lb. horse 11 of the 500 mg pills. They're small. I think he's really easy, but I just put the pills in his grain bowl, and crushed them with the back of a spoon, and mixed it in with his grain. He didn't have a problem with it. I thought maybe I'd have to add a little molasses or something, but it wasn't necessary. If your mare is a picky eater, it may be more difficult. I had done some searching on some of the brand name products mentioned in the article, and had a tough time finding them in the usual spots like Valleyvet.com, and horse.com. As I recall when I did find them, they were much more expensive. And in my experiences, any time I've gotten something directly from a vet, the price has been significantly higher than I've found on my own. I'm just in awe that this product may really work, and in most states only cost $10/per month per Dr. O's every other day treatment recommendation. Of course my excitement may fade in a few days if it doesn't help at all.
Member:
kthorse

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 9:07 pm:

I have given mine on occasion the over the counter ones I think they are 220mg. I paid 7.99 for 150 tabs. I think I gave him 8 or 9 working out that if a 200 pd person could take 2 a 800pd horse could take 4 times that. It was only for a few days and it worked wonderfully on him. It worked as good as bute. And this is a low dose according to Dr Os recommendation. I noticed improvement in about an hour.
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Friday, Jan 26, 2007 - 9:31 pm:

I thought about doing that myself, but I noticed that it is naproxen sodium, vs. just naproxen. I don't know if that matters or not. Hopefully I'll have the same reaction with my guy.
Member:
freshman

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 12:13 am:

I don't have any experience using naproxen in horses, but "pilling" horses that won't readily consume the drug in the feed (which is a lot of them!) can be achieved by crushing the pills, mixing with pancake syrup, molassas, coke, etc, and putting the mix into a large syringe. Administer like a paste dewormer. Ask your vet for a 60cc syringe to use for this purpose.
Member:
freshman

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 12:19 am:

Just curious, wondering if the Walmart $4 Rx plan applies to prescriptions written for animals? Lisa, did anyone at Walmart mention this issue?
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 10:01 am:

Hi gals,
Lisa, I hope the naproxen helps your horse...just what is wrong with him...also a hurting back?

Katrina...in about an hour?? WOW...maybe your guy isn't as bad off as my mare...I would be jumping for joy if I see an improvement in her within a few days, once I try this drug. And now you have me wondering about that added sodium in the Wal Mart pills...maybe Dr.O can tell us something about that.

Kristin, I have pilled my horses many times...I have one of those little pill crushers that I use when I have to. It's a pain in the neck, but does work...sometimes I get away with adding it to their feed, sometimes a syringe is the only way...thanks for you advice though.
I do believe once I get Stately Morn started on the naproxen, it'll be thru my vet, he'll get the drug for me...one thing I notice is that everyone here complains about the prices of drugs ect from your vets...guess I'm lucky to live in a very rural area of Wyoming because my vet does not make any profit on the drugs he dispenses, and charges very reasonable fees for everything he does...he's wonderful.
At this point, all I want to do is find relief for Stately Morn.

Thanks gals....
Member:
rein

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 10:44 am:

Hey everyone,
I found the best way to crush pills is with a coffee grinder. It stays in the barn for just that purpose. Sometimes I'll mix it in their grain or in a syringe with a little pepto, they like the taste and I believe it helps to coat the stomach. Good luck!
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 11:22 am:

It does apply to animal scripts, it just happens that in Colorado, they are unable to charge only $4, because the state considers it "predatory pricing", so they have to charge $9, whether for human or animal use.
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 11:40 am:

Good ideas on pill administration guys. Joanie, to clarify, the drug available by prescription is "naproxen". OTC products such as Aleve, or any generic OTC, is "naproxen sodium". I don't know the difference between them. I'm glad your vet doesn't upcharge, but I'll be curious to hear what you pay. Maybe the prices on those products have come down. My horse has high ringbone (arthritis of the pastern joint). I gave him a dose last night, and then gave him another this morning. Unfortunately I think the poor guy slipped on some icy snow overnight or early this morning, so that is causing him to walk a little differently. I do think I'm seeing some improvement though.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 11:49 am:

Hi Michelle,
Yes, I also have used my coffee bean grinder for pills...handy little item to have a round.
Thanks for the 'good luck'
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 11:53 am:

Dr.O,

Maybe you can offer some advice here concerning the naproxen...
What form of the drug would be best to use? Speaking for myself, at this point, all I want is the best of naproxen to use on my mare.
In the Wal Mart pills...does the added sodium help, hinder or mean nothing?
Is there a loading dose for the naproxen?

Thanks for answering these questions and anything else you can add would be appreciated.
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 12:38 pm:

Joanie,

I may very well be wrong, but I think naproxen is naproxen, no matter where you buy it. I mentioned Wal-Mart because they are super cheap. So I wouldn't call them "Wal-Mart pills". I would imagine that the manufacturer of the generic naproxen I bought at Wal-Mart is the same company where dozens of other stores get there naproxen. It's like buying aspirin. Every store you go to that sells aspirin is going to have their own cheap store brand, called private labeling. They bought it from a manufacturer that put a sticker on it with the stores name or brand on it. I am personally a cheapskate, and would buy that stuff, vs. paying for the Bayer Aspirin. Also, I would think manufacturers of human drugs are more highly regulated than those for animals. And if I had to guess, I would say the OTC pills which are "naproxen sodium", are probably less effective. Also Joanie, there is a stream of posts under just "naproxen" where Dr. O gave me loading dose instructions. Sorry, Dr. O if I'm stepping on your toes.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 1:50 pm:

Lisa,
Thanks...I'm like you and buy mostly store brands ect rather than name brands whenever I can...I just referred to the naproxen as Wall Mart pills because we were talking about buying them at Wal Mart...by the way, I go to Wal mart for my 'once a month' household & grocery shopping...love the store...much cheaper and more variety than our local stores.

And thanks for the little reminder that Dr.O had posted the dose information...I printed all that out, so shoudln't have forgotten...DUH!!!

Hope your fella is better since slipping and that the naproxen helps him...because I sure am hoping it helps Stately Morn.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 6:06 pm:

Naproxen, has been available OTC for over 10 years, first as Naprosyn,and now many inexpensive generics are made. There are prescription forms in higher concentrations than available OTC. I would use the least expensive name brand generic I could find whether OTC or prescription.
DrO
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 7:35 pm:

Thanks, Dr O,
My vet and me are going to talk about this next week and I may start Stately Morn on his prescription Naproxen, then if it helps, I'll buy the cheaper generic stuff...right now, I just want her to stop hurting.
Thanks you very much.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 8:09 pm:

A prescription written by a MD or DVM are equally valid at a drug store. Though I usually find druggist more interested in the animal case.
DrO
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 8:46 pm:

Shows what I know! But I'm very glad to hear I was wrong. Sorry for spouting off. I think I'm a bit of a know it all that talks too much.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 10:33 pm:

Ah...a subject I know a little bit about. In nursing school when we took Pharmacology, with every drug having two names, a trade and a generic name, it was rather daunting to study but I always loved the subject.
Just a little tid bit if anyone is interested...for the first 10 years after a medication hits the shelves the producer is the only one that can market that drug so you usually have to pay a lot. That is so they can recoup their costs for research and development. After 10 years, other companies can sell their formulations in the generic form. They are the same exact medications. That is when competition for pricing starts so the prices go down.
So Joanie you can give the generic form of Naproxen and you are giving the exact same medication. It will be cheaper. There is no detriment to your mare.
One is not any better than the other. If you purchase the trade name (or it's prescribed) you are paying for the marketing, the packaging etc. The only thing you might find as Dr O states is that some generics are supplied in smaller dosages, ie with prescription Motrin (commonly prescribed in 800mg tabs) you would have to take four of the generic version ibuprofen to get that dosage. So you have to weigh which would be better in that case where you would have to buy a lot of the generic to get the desired dose.
In the AF all of meds are supplied to us in the generic form (unless it's new and then we get the brand name for the first 10 yrs) as is to our pets.
A good investment, not only in this case but if you want to look up information on any medication is a cheap drug reference book so if you wanted to buy the generic vs you could just look the trade name and generic version would be listed then you can bargain shop and buy that drug at a cheaper price.
One thing I have always found so sad in relation to drugs is seeing people not take meds they need because they can't afford the trade when the generic is available or not giving them to their animals that need them because they can't afford the trade name..most just have no idea the generic is the same thing and Lisa you are right some of the generics are in fact produced by the same manufacturer. All generics are the same as well they just vary in doses not in quality. The FDA would not allow them to be marketed if they were substandard. Wallmart generics are the same as Wallgreens etc.
Good wishes for future drug shopping!
Member:
corinne

Posted on Saturday, Jan 27, 2007 - 10:45 pm:

P.S. on the above topic, if I recall correctly, just because a medication is available in generic form doesn't mean you can get it over the counter as is the case with narcotics etc.

On an other note Dr. O why can we give drugs to our horses without a prescription but have to have a prescription for the same drug for our small animal dogs and cats?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 7:59 am:

Which drugs are you talking about Corinne? If a drug is available OTC there are no laws that prevent you from giving it to your animals, though common sense would dictate you consult your veterinarian. What is safe for one specie is not always safe for another specie.
DrO
Member:
corinne

Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 10:25 am:

Sir how about Ivermectin and Pyrantal? Your correct that one shouldn't give meds without a vet consult, and I don't ever but was just curious why I can give those to my horse to deworm him (available OTC) but for the dogs I need a scrip such as heartguard. Was flipping though a Smartpak catalog and horse dewormers are sold OTC but for the dogs you need a prescription. Just curious. Why is a prescription not needed for my horse?
Thanks!
Member:
ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 11:11 am:

Good questions Corinne. All wormers are the same it seems whether for cats, dogs, cattle or horses. Notice I said IT SEEMS.

I also wondered why we need the Rx for Bute? Or Banamine, they just seem like Advil or Tylenol for horses.

Many years ago vets wanted to see your horses (at least here) before you could even pick up some wormer for them. Thank goodness that isn't the case anymore.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 12:42 pm:

Thanks for the advice on generic drugs...I agree with you as I do buy generic OTC stuff all the time. As for my mare, not sure yet which way I'll go...as mentioned in another post of mine, may get her started on the naproxen my vet has available, then switch to generic...we are going to talk about injected Stately Morn with it as a 'loading dose'.

Any advice or suggestions are welcome...Dr.O?

About the OTC dog de wormer...there are several you can buy...it's just that the OTC canine de wormers are for the common worms...and the stuff you get from your vet would rid your poochies of specific worms...hence they usually want a stool sample from Fido!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 6:40 pm:

Corinne you are talking about the arcane world of drug approval. If the govt deems it safe OTC you get it OTC if not, you don't. I can't always figure out the difference myself.

But Angie you are very wrong, different species react to the same drugs differently, sometimes remarkably different. It gets even worse, even some breeds within a specie react differently to the same drugs. Acetaminophen toxicity in cats and ivermectin toxicity in Collie type breeds of dogs comes to mind. Almost all species react differently in drug disposition and clearance making dosage frequently specie specific.
DrO
Member:
sporty

Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 7:46 pm:

Corinne,
Just a note about Heartgard in dogs. Heartgard is used as a heartworm preventative. Just as Dr. O touched on, it can be toxic in Collie type dogs. Also, there can be extreme problems in giving it to heartworm positive dogs. They can go into shock and even die if they have a heavy load. You need a current heartworm test from your veterinarian in order to get the heartgard or prescription for it. If a prescription was not required then you could do more harm than good to your dog. Also, the OTC canine dewormers are usually pyrantel or piperazine products. I have seen almost fatal reactions in dogs given piperazine products. Pyrantel is safe, but just as Joanie said, it doesn't get all of the intestinal parasites like some of the products that you get from your veterinarian. A fecal flotation (stool sample) will identify which worms your dog has and hence you will be given the appropriate dewormer for your canine friend.
Member:
corinne

Posted on Sunday, Jan 28, 2007 - 8:57 pm:

Very interesting information. Thank you all.
That really clears up my curiosity. I am the type however, that annoyingly calls the vet office just to ask silly questions and that is why I initially joined HA because I just feel safer asking a DVM even mundane questions about my horses health. Being in health care I never taking anything for granted, even with my animals.
I think the only thing I have ever given to any of my animals without a prescription is horse dewormer and I follow the protocol listed here.
As for my two dog boys they have a negative heart worm test on file each year (although now it’s clarified why they get it every year). The vets here recommended they stay on heartguard year round since we moved to Oklahoma this summer.
They also get the spot on treatments year round as my lab cross developed Urlichiosis (sorry if I got that totally wrong) when we got here and we don't want to go through that again.

Great information to keep in my “just in case you didn't know file!”
Thanks!
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 31, 2007 - 7:18 pm:

Just an update. Chief has had his 3 day loading dose of naproxen, plus a couple regular daily doses. I wouldn't say his lameness is gone, but it is improved. I have really noticed that he is much more playful, and running more, and faster. Hopefully I'll see further improvement, but I would imagine most of the improvement comes right at the end of the loading dose.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 6:49 am:

If you are treating arthritis Lisa the increased exercise may put you back where you started from for more on this see the article on arthritis. One of the tricks is using pain relief but try to keep the exercise level constant. You make him more comfortable results in increased exercise which causes increased inflammation and bang now you are back where you were but feeding a daily NSAID.
DrO
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Thursday, Feb 1, 2007 - 11:36 am:

Point taken. The word "running" is probably not accurate. I should probably have said trotting around with his pasture mate--and they weren't running laps around the place by any means. They are generally turned out 24/7, but have been pretty lazy lately with all of the snow. If he does get too active, I will confine him. Of course, then he'd be getting less exercise than usual. So, it's a matter of making him feel better, but not good enough to alter his behavior much.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 1:14 pm:

Update on Stately Morn...the mare I have with apparent back problem that has made her quite lame.
My vet called in a prescription for the Naproxen to our local Wal Mart. 500mg tablets.
I will start her on it tomorrow (Wal mart is mailing it to me as I live 30 miles from the store).
I read thru the posts and the article to get the right dose.
With the 500 mg tablets, how much do I give her per day...the article says 10mg/kg once or twice a day...how do I figure that out using a 500 mg. tablet?
Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 1:47 pm:

Joanie, take your mare's weight in pounds, and multiply it by 5. That's the number of mg you need. Then, take that amount, and divide it by 500, the amount in each tab. For example, a 1000 pound horse will need 5000 mg. In order to get 5000 mg, that is 10 tabs. (an 1100 pound horse would require 11, and a 1200 pound horse would be 12)Dr. O had me do a loading dose for 3 days. So, for a 1000 pound horse, give 10 pills in the morning, and 10 pills in the evening. After the initial 3 days, he had me pull back to just once a day dosing--so 10 pills a day. He recommended doing that for at least a week, and then after that try to do only every other day.

I've not had problems getting my guy to just eat the pills crushed in his grain, but follow some of the other recs and use a coffee grinder or pill crusher, and maybe mix it up with some molasses or something if your mare is more picky than my guy.

Good luck--I hope she responds well.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 2:58 pm:

Lisa,

Thanks so much...guess if my head was screwed on straight I could have figured that out...but today my concern is for Toy Moon and her pregnancy...I think you may be familiar with this via my posts on placentitus & mastitis.
I just came in (cold & snowing) from checking on Toy...her vulva is still too 'puffy' looking to make me feel good and her bag has filled on both sides...things don't look good. She was due for her 9th mo Phenumabort shot, so gave it to her along with a hug and a plea to hold onto this baby...
Anyway, thanks again for the dose info...the naproxen should be in my mail box tomorrow. I hope it helps Stately Morn and glad that it has helped your guy...I'll try grinding it up in my coffee grinder and adding it to her feed with some corn oil & apple juice...she is sorta picky about stuff added to her food...I've always had the mindset that fillies & mares are way more picky than stallions & geldings...my geldings will eat anything!!!
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 3:35 pm:

Joanie, I don't blame you, with all you've got going on. Hopefully things will be ok with Toy. At least she's held on for a few weeks since you initially posted about the problems, so hopefully it's not as dire as you think.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 13, 2007 - 5:08 pm:

Thanks, Lisa...I hope you are right, that since she's been holding on for this long...sems like forever, she will make it to term...or at least close enough. April can't get here fast enough!!

Once I get Stately Morn going on the naproxen, I'll post the results.

Thanks again for your help & support.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 5:01 pm:

Hi gals & Dr.O,

Started Stately Morn on the Naproxen this morning...so I will post back after a week or so to let you know if it helps her.
FYI.....my vet called in the prescription to Wal Mart and I got 100 500mg tablets for about $15.00.
They are small tablets so I just broke them in half and added them to her feed (they get Nutrena Safe Choice which is a pellet feed)...I added a little of a mixture of corn oil & apple juice and she ate it all gone...I even put 3 or 4 halves in my hand with some feed and she ate it from my hand...didn't even know the pills are in there....so I hope this works as it's cheap enough for long term pain managment and easy to feed.
I can't recall which of you told me how many pills to feed her...but thanks for that info...she's about 1,100 lbs. so I'm giving her 10 pills 2 times a day to start...correct?
OH...I did get a call from Wal mart, they mail my prescriptions to me and they said they couldn't find the credit card # for Stately Morn...hahahaha...I expect it would be pretty hard for a horse to get a credit card!!!

Thanks again...you guys are great!!
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Friday, Feb 16, 2007 - 6:50 pm:

Joannie, I'm glad she's taking them so easily. They must not be very bitter. I would do 11 pills per dose, although I doubt that 1 really makes a difference. Wyoming must also have laws about "predatory pricing", because you didn't get the cheapest price either. Although it's still a good price. 100 pills won't last very long, but it should be long enough to know whether it works. I've got my fingers crossed for her.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 8:15 am:

And once working, once daily and/or smaller dosing can be experimented with.
DrO
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 10:04 am:

Hi Lisa & Dr.O,

I wonder what the cheapest price on the naproxen is...and yes, I figured 100 pills will tell me something, although I'm sure I'd go ahead and get more before giving up...
yep, I'll experiment with smaller dose once she is walking better...
and sure glad I don't have to grind them up and use a syringe!!

Thanks so much.
I'll keep you posted.
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Saturday, Feb 17, 2007 - 5:35 pm:

Joanie, in most places Walmart sells that naproxen for $4 per 60 pills, (so 100 would cost $6.66) but a few States, like ours, consider it predatory so they have to charge more. Do you have a Sam's near you (relatively speaking of course)? I saw that they sell the OTC stuff. The pills are only 220 mg, so you have to give more, but when I did the math, it's cheaper for us than the Walmart prescription. It was about $9 I think, for 2 bottles of 120 each. It's about half the cost to get the same number of mgs, but it requires counting out a lot more pills. I'll probably do that when I run out of my prescription stuff. I think I'm going to take the coffee grinder idea, and find out what 6000 mgs looks like in powder form, and then just grind up the whole bottle at one time, and use a measuring spoon to dose it.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Sunday, Feb 18, 2007 - 10:44 am:

Hi Lisa,
That's a good idea, about grinding all the pills up at once...I've been breaking them in half and adding to her feed, but your way sounds way better!!
I'll stay with the 500mg tabs from Wal Mart...anyway I look at it, it's a heck of a lot cheaper than anything else I could use...all I want is to see results.
Good luck with yours, Lisa!!
Thanks
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 1:20 pm:

Naproxen update for Stately Morn...
Just an quick update...I got Stately Morn started on the stuff and had to stop...initial amount I got was 100 pills, which lasted only 5 days...then when we called in for 500 pills, Wal Mart didn't have anymore in stock, so had to wait.
Now I am started over with her loading dose and hope it'll help her...as soon as I see her walking better, and I hope that's what I see, then I'll start messing with the dose to see what she'll need to maintain.
I'll post back again in a week or so just to let everyone know if the Naproxen works for her...as it did for several other horses here, so folks can decide to try it or not.
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Thursday, Mar 1, 2007 - 1:54 pm:

Hi Joanie, Dr. O only had me do a 3 day loading dose. After 3 days of twice daily dosing, for one week I did once daily dosing, and after that, I try to do only once every other day dosing. When the ground is really hard, which unfortunately it tends to be, particularly first thing in the morning, I often need to dose every morning.

If your 100 pills only lasted 5 days, you must have done 5 days with twice daily dosing? And you didn't see any improvement after all that? I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think it's going to work for her. I think you would have seen improvement by now. But it's worth trying a little longer. I think I'd stick to Dr. O's recommendation on just the 3 day loading dose, followed by once a day dosing until you see enough improvement that you can cut down to only every other day. Ignore me if your vet gave you different instructions. I'd just hate for the poor girl to end up with ulcers or something along with a sore back! Good luck.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 6, 2007 - 9:08 pm:

Lisa,
I had to start Stately Morn's loading dose all over because Wal Mart ran out of the Naproxen and I had to wait several days to get more.
She is almost done with the loading dose...so far I beleive I see a bit of improvement. I will start messing with her dose this coming weekend, but right now, I am not sure if it'll really help her.
I am calling my farrier this week to get the horses booked for a trim, and will have him do an equine massage on her too...if the massage, warmer temps and naproxen don't help, then I'll figure out something else to try...
I am not about to give up on her just yet...
how is your guy doing now? Do try using a coffee grinder on the pills...I don't think Stately Morn even knows they are in her grain...and she gets pelleted feed which is harder to mask meds in...I mix it all up with a mixture of corn oil & apple juice...works really well.
keep me posted on your guy...I noticed your first post about the naproxen was from a few years ago.
Thanks Lisa...
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 2:28 am:

Joanie,

First off, sorry to hear about Toy Moon. I was devastated last year by the loss of a calf, so I can only imagine what the loss of a foal must feel like--two is probably even worse. Actually, that cow that aborted is pregnant again, and she's so fat, I keep joking she's having twins. As much as I would love for two babies, I know that's asking for trouble.

That wasn't my post from a few years ago--I added on. Chief has been on it for several weeks now. When the ground is soft his limp is barely discernible and he's pretty spunky. But, when the ground is frozen, it can be pretty bad. Fortunately, most days it does go above freezing or there is soft snow. I may try the Old Mac boots for the cold winter days. So, I think the naproxen definitely helps, but it's not a miracle worker. However, I do think lumpy, frozen ground is probably tough on a lot of horses. I wonder if Old Mac boots would help a bad back? I would think anything that reduces concussion would help. If you don't know what Old Mac boots are, there are some posts under hoof care. Maybe you should start a thread to see if anyone has used them for a bad back or if they think it might help. They're not cheap at $135 a pair, but if they provide relief, it would be well worth it.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 7, 2007 - 12:53 pm:

Lisa,
Thank you...it'll be quite a while before I 'get over' this...there is no history of twins for Toy Moon or her family members...just one of those things...the older a mare gets the more likely she is to have twins (Toy will be 16 this Spring)...my vet is very mad at himself and feels terrible that he didn't see twins via her u/s last year....would have been an easy fix.

We also have cows, and when a calf dies we do feel bad...but having this happen to a horse is for some reason just the worst...I guess it's because we feel the horses are part of the family....I hope your fat cow just has one calf...but usually for a cow, twins are not that bad...they usually survive and grow up pretty well. We had a cow give birth to twins last month...but this cow has a 'bad bag'..her teats are not user friendly and her calves have a hard time nursing...we are going to cull this cow, anyway...we gave the twins to a gal that works in my vet's office...she loves the little buggers!!

Glad to know Chief is doing pretty well on the Naproxen...I was watching Stately Morn this morning and it looks like she's more comfortable...time will tell. I did talk about boots for her with my farrier last time he was here...we, along with my vet, decided they won't do her much good, but when he comes out here next time, which will be soon, we'll talk about it some more, maybe even just put some glue on pads. The ground here is still hard from the winter, once it thaws out maybe that'll help her too...and another equine massage is in order.

Thanks again, Lisa...
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Sunday, Mar 11, 2007 - 1:30 pm:

Lisa & everyone,
I do believe that the Naproxen is helping Stately Morn. I finished her 'loading dose', and now I have her on about half that initial dose...5 pills twice a day.
I'll keep her on that for a week. Then I will try every other day, or 5 pills per day, whichever will seem to work best.
Lisa, I use my coffee grinder and grind up about 250 pills...putting about 25 pills at a time in the grinder. Then I store it all in an air tight container. I measured out the doses with a small scoop type measuring cup and marked it for the loading dose, the dose she's on now, ect ect...it's easy and convenient.
Hope Chief is still doing good.
Maybe the warmer temps here are helping Stately Morn also, she is walking better and will do a few tiny rearing type jumps...you know, like when they are feeling really good.
I hope she continues to improove with the naproxen...and soooooo happy I came here to discuss her problem...I would never have learned about the Naproxen otherwise.

Thanks gals & Dr.O
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 10:54 am:

Joanie,

I'm glad you are seeing some improvement. Great idea on the grinding and using a measuring scoop with various amounts marked. I'm going to do that as well. We've had beautiful weather the last couple of weeks, and have had several nights when the ground hasn't frozen. It really does seem to make a big difference. I would have to imagine that warmer temps are helping your mare as well. I ended up having to leave town unexpectedly so I haven't ordered any Old Mac boots yet, but I may just hold off for awhile anyway since it's warming up. Keep me posted!
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 14, 2007 - 11:29 am:

Hi Lisa,
I do think warmer temps are helping both our horses...using the measured scoop does make it easy...let's hope both horses get even better with the warm temps & softer footing.
I'll be getting the farrier out here soon and will discuss options for her feet, although he already told me he didn't think boots would be beneficial...since it's all coming from her back someplace.
I'll continue to pursue any avenue that may help and if I discover anything, I'll post it here.
Good luck and here's to warm temps!!
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 7:42 pm:

Lisa, Dr.o,

Thought I'd post an update on the progress Stately Morn is making with her lameness issue. As a reminder: she's been pretty lame all winter, walking with tiny steps and looking as if she had foundered in her stance upon getting up...Xrays showed that her feet & legs are 100% normal, absolutely nothing out of the ordinary.
My vet, farrier & myself have concluded her pain is somewhere in her shoulders, neck, back...
I intend to get to the bottom of this and my vet may try a nerve block...we need to localize where the problem lies...I suspect it's somewhere on her left side because she favors her left leg...it's the one she lifts off the ground whenever she stands still, and I can plainly see that she doesn't want to put any more weight on it than necessary.
Anyway...Lisa, Dr.O...the Naproxen is helping her. I have her down to about 5 500mg pills per day now and this seems to maintain her comfort level pretty well...she's still stiff when she gets up, but doesn't take that 'founder stance' anymore. When she walks her stride is longer and she's gained her weight back.

Thanks for the info about this naproxen...it's good stuff.
Lisa...how's your boy?
Doc...any ideas as to what can be causing Stately Morn to favor that one front leg/foot?
Member:
lzieman

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 20, 2007 - 10:36 pm:

Joanie,

I'm so glad the naproxen is helping. I hope the vet is able to diagnose what the true problem is, so you can more effectively treat her pain.

Chief is doing really well. I've been giving him 11 pills, every other day--so pretty similar dosing as you. He just got trimmed, and the ground is nice and soft, so I'm sure those things are contributing to his more normal gait.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 7:19 am:

Joanie I have put all your posts together on this one case to keep the history easy to follow. You need to read the article on the diagnosis of lameness particularly the parts about the significance of radiographs for more see Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse.
DrO
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 21, 2007 - 4:26 pm:

Dr.O,
Sorry about the post, thanks for moving it...wasn't sure if I should just continue this thread or not...
I read most of the article you mentioned...with all the 'sub-topics' related to it, I could spend all day reading.
I also went thru all the posts about lameness issues.
I was at my vet's clinic this morning (there's a vaccination now for dogs to prevent swelling, illness & possible death from Rattle Snake bites...and we have tons of rattle snakes here, so got them both vaccinated again. It's very scary irrigating, you never know when a rattle Snake will be in the weeds)
Made an app't for late next week to get Stately Morn's nerve block done...to give her a good 'going over', and I will also have my farrier here at the same time.
Meanwhile, I am going to read every article, sub topic, use your links ect ect., and probably print out quite a lot of it for referrence material.
Reading the xrays don't always show if something is wrong in the foot gives me pause...but we did also do the hoof tester thing and my farrier examined her feet closely also...
anyway...once again, thanks...I'll read, print out and keep you posted...
I do have a question...since things in equine medicine change so often, will reading posts & your replies to posts dated further back that 2006 be a waste of time?
Thank you.

Lisa...Happy to know Chief is doing well, and like you, I agree warmer temps & softer ground must help...but I really need to localize Stately Morn's pain.
Give Chief a hug from Stately Morn!!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 7:02 am:

Somethings don't change Joanie, while others have changed last night. The more controversial a "fact" is the more likely I am to refer someone to the articles for information, since they are updated as new information comes along.
DrO
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Thursday, Mar 22, 2007 - 11:41 am:

So true!!
I read the articles to get the up to date information....but the posts are helpful to see how other members fair using different medications ect...
Thanks, Dr.O.
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 5:13 pm:

UPDATE...
I've had both mares, Stately Morn & Toy Moon nerve blocked.... a couple of days after, both had swollen ankles and some swelling along the outside of the leg. Put them both on Banamine & hosed their legs...swelling went down after several days. My vet can't come up with a reason for the swelling.
I think Stately Morn is a bit better...her strides are longer than they were and she seems more comfortable, and when she gets up, she doesn't lean back as much as she used to.
Toy Moon developed a 'sore' at just about the place my vet injected the block...it has no hair on it and started out hard and is now much softer...I'm using a medicated ointment on it, but used a poultice for the first few days...my vet doesn't know what could have caused this 'sore' to develope....Toy Moon is still limping, so I need to wait until this 'sore' heals before I pass judgement on the nerve block...but I don't think she'll be sound.

I have had both mares on naproxen for quite sometime now...I use it on for a week, off for a week....more or less...it helps some, but not enough.

My last resort is coming soon...Adequan injections for both mares....if that doesn't help them, then I just don't know what else to do.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 8:16 am:

Joanie what is the diagnosis for the cause of the lameness?
DrO
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 12:33 pm:

Dr.O,
That's part of the problem...there really is no diagnosis!!
With Toy Moon we do know it's arthritus, and her hocks are still not fused...she also had common knee surgery as a yearling and now has arthritus in that knee.
So, for Toy Moon I need to find something that will help her arthritus...and I am going to try the Adequan injections for her....I don't know what else to do.
Stately Morn is still a mystery...the nerve blocking did seem to help her somewhat, her strides are longer than before and she seems more comfortable...but we really don't know where her pain originates..her xrays showed normal in her feet & legs...so I will hope that Adequan injections for her might do the trick.

I am really at a loss as to what else to do...any help you can provide would be most welcome, Dr.O.
Thank you.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 10:10 pm:

Concerning treating arthritis we have many recommendations for the management and treatment at Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Arthritis and DJD: An Overview. For the undiagnosed lameness I would recommend you have the horse referred to a facility that does good lameness exams. Once we know what is wrong we can make really helpful suggestions.
DrO
Member:
jd1947

Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2007 - 10:49 am:

Thanks, Dr.O

I have to take one of the dogs to see my vet today (she has a crusty nose) and will talk over what to do for both mares.
Unfortunatley, we don't have any nearby lameness facilities...in fact, we don't have any specialist type facilities around here at all...closest one would probably be down in Colorado...but my vet has been consulting other vets, so maybe he'll get some good suggestions...I do trust him. He won't do anything he's not sure about and has no problems with consulting, researching & reading up on things he's not sure about.
Doc, all I can do is the best I can do with what is available to me...
he did mention injection cotizone, so maybe we'll try that before the Adequan...
I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again.
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