This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Alternative or Herbal Medicatons »
  Discussion on Input on Vitex/chasteberry for studdy gelding?
Author Message
New Member:
redhen

Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 8:21 pm:

I have a gelding whose testosterone levels are very high (done HCG challenge, esterone sulfate tests). He was gelded as a crypt and I am assured they 'got it all' but his behavior says otherwise. Regumate doesn't seem to help...I see in Horse Journal reference to Hormonise, which is Vitex agnus castus or chasteberry, for calming stallions and geldings and on the manufacturer's website a recommendation for its use 'on rigs'. Does anyone have any experience with this herb? Generally I steer clear of alternative medicines but I am trying to work with this horse...thanks!
Member:
scooter

Posted on Monday, Apr 23, 2007 - 9:34 pm:

Hi Laurie, I have a gelding that acts the same way, he literally was breeding the mares. I tried the Vitex on him as a desperate measure and never saw a difference. Since he has turned 20 his foolish behavior is pretty much gone.(it was a long wait tho) One of the vets in this town implants his stallions with something they use on cows. I didn't want to go in that direction so I just put up with it. Good Luck
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 8:51 am:

Welcome Laurie,
What were the test procedures and results including lab normals and units?
DrO
Member:
frances

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 3:18 pm:

I thought agnus castus or chasteberry was for calming MARES - in fact I've used it on my mare in the past? How come it's for male horses too? I could have sworn there was a warning on the "Stroppy Mare" tub that it should only be given to mares (mind you, this product contains not only agnus castus but many other herbs too).}}
New Member:
redhen

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 24, 2007 - 9:26 pm:

Thank you all for the prompt responses! I'm going to 'talk' to Dr Oglesby about the tests I had done first: This gelding was foaled April 3 2002 and sold to me in Feb of 2006. I had the first testosterone test done in May: .25 nanograms/mg. Soon after I had the esterone sulfate done: 17.32 ng/ml. In August I had the HCG challenge: .15 ng testosterone/mg pretest and .28 after one hour. The vet used Cornell Lab and I have since learned that the usual reporting unit is picograms not nanograms however this is the data I received. Sorry, I don't know what 'lab normals' are!

I am 100% certain that this horse had the descended and the retained testicles removed; I've spoken to the vet, members of his team, and the owner and trainer who both observed in the OR. I get differing interpretations of my results from different vets but the general take is that while exploratory surgery is an option it's a long shot that they would find any odd bit of testicular tissue in the abdomen. I would be very eager to hear your opinion and whether you've ever heard of successful surgery for such a case.

For you guys asking about Vitex for geldings I can just say that Regumate is also used for mares but is anecdotally effective in studdy geldings. The Vitex, as I say, I just came across in a magazine I subscribe to and see some testimonials on the 'net about moderating riggy behavior. I've also been told that Regumate will not help if testosterone is coming from testicular tissue rather than adrenal or pituitary glands.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 7:08 am:

The best test, estrone sulfate, requires lab normals to evaluate but both the resting and HCG stimulated testosterone are clear (assuming picograms): there is no testicular tissue present. However even with the low amounts of testosterone present some horses will still act studdy for more on this see Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Castration in Horses. Lab normals are the values the lab considers normal.
DrO
New Member:
redhen

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 25, 2007 - 9:16 pm:

DrO: I guess I didn't explain the lab results well: Cornell did report in nanograms. I have the lab sheet right in front of me. The reference values quoted are also in ngs: preHCG stallion: nonbreeding: <1.0ng, breeding 1.0 - 4.0 and geldings pre-HCG < 0.2ng The paper reads: "In stallions and males with retained or missed testicle, testosterone concentrations increase after HCG injection." I have had various vets/published papers say that it has to double, or quadruple, to be an indication of testicular tissue. Why the confusion? So, some vets tell me it's too low to think he's still crypt while others say the levels definitely indicate retained tissue.

For the esterone sulfate the lab reference value is for true geldings <5.0> 10.0 ng/ml. At 17.32 my guy seems to be well above gelding level, yet again I have vets say that test isn't always significant. I am really stuck here - I've paid around $300 for recommended tests yet I can't get consensus on the interpretations! Advice? (I'm trying to proofread this and cannot get the two boxes with my message showing to match so I'll repeat part of the problem sentence: estrone sulfate for true geldings less than 5.0 and for stallions or crypts 10.0)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 26, 2007 - 8:18 am:

You are right I misunderstood you. I thought you were telling me the result's units were misreported so I must multiply what I thought the levels reported above were by 1000. It changes my conclusions.

So let's start again. The initial testosterone results at 0.25 ng (250 pg) per ml and the pre-HCG test (150 pg) are both well over the usual gelding levels of less than 100 pg/ml strongly suggesting testicular tissue. This is then well supported by the estrone sulfate levels. You have heard wrong about the estrone sulfate test in males over 3 years of age, it is very dependable. The only fly in the ointment is the HCG response which is low however if the response level was taken just one hour later this is the very edge of the recommended retest time, perhaps your horse responds slowly but it was headed in the right direction. When inaccuracies occur with this test (about 5% of the time) it is a false negative for when testicular tissue is present.

Note however that while some resting testosterone levels overlap requiring this further testing, your initial levels are well above this overlap level. This is explained in detail in the article I reference above.

If this is a problem you would like addressed I would be looking for that testicular tissue.
DrO
New Member:
redhen

Posted on Saturday, Apr 28, 2007 - 5:05 pm:

Dr. O, thank you so much. Because vets tell me the chance of finding the tissue is low, I am not considering exploratory surgery. I would give him back, no fee, to the trainer and start saving for another horse. I guess it's no-one's fault. My very last question is, is it possible for this level of testosterone to be secreted by the adrenals? I ask just because when I give him away I want to provide all of the information I've found. He could live with someone who kept and rode him alone, but I have a boarding facility and while he's been OK under saddle the risk that he gets lose (which he did in March - broke through the mares' electric fence and herded the two of them into his own pasture for an evening of 'fun')is just not one I can take. He's a gorgeous foundation-bred QH and it's such a pity.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 8:31 am:

"Is it possible questions" can usually be answered with "just about anything is possible" so are not very helpful. However these levels would be way above the norm for geldings.
DrO
New Member:
redhen

Posted on Sunday, Apr 29, 2007 - 11:41 am:

OK, thanks again so much DrO.
Member:
redhen

Posted on Saturday, May 19, 2007 - 7:00 pm:

Just an update in case anyone was following this 'thread' beside DrO: today I took that gelding back to the trainer and she gave me a free one-year lease on a QH mare that needs some work (and to lose some weight!!!). She's going back to the breeder and owner former owner to see if they will pay for further investigations...also asking the vet clinic...he is so bad this spring that he is virtually unsafe for farrier, under saddle around other horses, etc. He is so handsome and it's very sad - maybe she can find him a knowlegeable home with NO other horses. Maybe.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 6:30 am:

Thanks for the update Laurie.
DrO
New Member:
crisannc

Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 11:25 am:

We are experiencing the same problem as Laurie. Our Vet. Dr. Silverman of Riverside has taken the testosterone test and our "gelding" has normal gelding levels. We are scheduling the HCG test. We live on a small ranch in Big Bear Lake and have only two hormonal mares. What is your opinion of the birth control shot for the mares? Are there side effects?

Has anyone found a supplement or herbal formula that is effective with these Riggy geldings?

Crisann 909 649-6986
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 7:30 am:

Wellcome Crisann,
There are a number of injections and oral medications given to mares to prevent estrus and/or pregnancy so I am not sure which you are referring to. To read about those used to control behavior see, Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Suppressing Heat and Estral Behavior in Mares.

I am not aware of any treatment for the attitude of a studdy gelding. But good solid training will fix most problems in hand and under saddle, for a list of behavior problems and treatments see Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems ». For more on these studdy geldings and what is going on in their minds see Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Castration in Horses.
DrO
PS: Crisann you will get quicker and more responses by starting a new discussion rather than placing posts on a new problem at the end of someone elses post. The start new discussion button is at the bottom of the list of discussions on each topic. For more on this see Help & Information on Using This Site » Posting Guidelines or where did my post go?.
DrO
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC