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Member:
Chrism

Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2003 - 4:11 pm:

Nearly 2 weeks ago, my vet was out for fall shots. I've know him for 16 years and really respect his knowledge and expertise - it is like having a Dr. O in person, ;=)

I asked him about my 20 yo - she seems to be coming out just a bit creaky on the left hind that works through with exercise. If I take her somewhere, like a clinic, I usually bute her alittle. Some days she is better the others - colder weather may stiffen her a bit more, but that may be due to less turn out or humidity change, too. It isn't obvious to most what I feel when riding her, or what my instructor who knows us very well sees. It is something very subtle - a slight irregularity that I feel and I know it is there. A heaviness on the forehand that originates from behind. You may not see it, but I can feel it. I had her on 3 g of people glucosamine a day, thinking I'd covered the supplement angle. In the past I'd tried assorted oral things like Corta-flex or chonDrOitin or MSM, etc. - never noticed any differences with or without.

So, my vet suggested finding a supplement with glucosamine, chonDrOitin and MSM. And, if that didn't help enough, perhaps oral HA. While doing some research and waiting for delivery of the three way, I upped her people glucosamine to 6 g a day.

Tuesday, I started her on the new supplement, which also has flax seed as I've had her on that all along.

Friday, she gave a medium advanced student rider a lesson - I was told it was the best the rider had ever done with my horse.

Saturday and Sunday I had lessons - she came out ready to work from the get go - it was effortless to get her going both days. I only noticed on Sunday a very slight difference when doing exercises that load the left hind - nothing you'd know if you weren't looking for it. (prelim exercises for canter pirouette)

Is it really possible that a supplement can make such a dramatic difference to the comfort of a horse? Have you seen this in real life? I never, ever would have believed it and tended to pooh-pooh the oral supplements as they'd never shown anything to me.

Now I am waiting to see if this lasts or was merely a coincidence.

I will say I'm still on a rider's high from the weekend. What a wonderful mare!

Cheers.
Member:
Aaring

Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2003 - 5:27 pm:

Christine--
Would you mind sharing which 3-way supplement you put her on?
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Monday, Nov 10, 2003 - 6:16 pm:

Hi Annette,

I'd left the name out just because I wasn't confident this was a real improvement due to the supplement.

The one I have her on is from Horsetech.com and called Tri-flex. I picked it because it is in flax seed and they offer free shipping, GRIN. When I buy flax seed I use them and have been pleased in the past. I feed flax seed because of its reputed value for skin/coat health, GI health, anti arthritic properties. This year my young black horse has dapples in her winter coat, maybe from the flax seed.

At the end of my 30 day trial of the Tri-flex, I had planned to assess whether to try ChonDrOgen EQ, which has the HA in it and is available from SmartPak. But, if my mare continues to be this nice, I'll stick with the Tri-flex. Oral HA was in a Horse Journal study published recently as being as effective as injections - I think Conquer paste is what has gotten a lot of buzz and the ChonDrOgen EQ is made by the same people. In the study, the test horses graded lameness improved about 1.5 on a 5 point scale.

My riding instructor even commented, "I hope my stallion is this nice when he is her age."

We'll see if it was just coincidence or if this "new feel" is sustained. The rides were really super duper.

Chris

Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 7:27 am:

Christine,
I am still uncertain as to all the ingredients and dosage rate in the new supplemnt and whether she is still on the old supplement at 6 gms chonDrOitin a day.
DrO
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 9:57 am:

Hi Dr. O,

She is not on the old supplement at all. It had been just glucosamine at 3 g/day for some time - no obvious benefit. I upped it for a week to 6 g/day. A few days after I upped it (say Saturday after a Tuesday) I rode both Sat and Sun and had difficult rides that gradually improved - an often occurance. I could also notice the irregularity on the left hind that worked out. I would call this "business as usual."

The new supplement replaced the old when it arrived. Each daily serving (two ounces) is said to provide 5,000 mg of Glucosamine HCL, 1,750 mg of ChonDrOitin Sulfate plus 5,000 mg of pharmaceutical grade Vitamin C and 10 grams of MSM.

I guess my question is along the lines of, have other people seen the occassional startling positive response to these type of supplements?

The link to this particular one is:

https://www.horsetech.com/triflex.htm

I just wasn't expecting it. And maybe it was a coincidence. But it was startling to me. Cheers.

Chris
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 11, 2003 - 10:17 am:

I have a friend who put her aging ex-barrel QH on an oral HA paste and was amazed at the difference in him within a week. (she uses him mainly for pleasure riding now.) I put my 15 yr. old former reiner on the same paste and couldn't really see much difference. My horse is just a little arthritic in his left hock from a former injury, I think her mare is arthritic just from hard use. So...maybe it just depends on the horse and the type of injury or arthritis it has. I don't remember the name of the paste-sorry.

I have my two old girls-both in mid 20's on a product by Select that has Glucosamine HCL, MSM, Yucca, Ester C and ConDrOiten in it and have really seen a difference in them as to ease of movement and general comfort level. I have another mare, age 13, who had knee surgery and is very arthritic with extra calcification in her knee, and the same supplement does help her, but not as much as it seems to help the other two-esp. when there are big changes in the weather. I am considering adding some Devil's Claw to her supplement.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2003 - 6:27 am:

The problem is the medium here does not allow us to access what a person means by dramatic improvement and I would like to spend a second or two clarifying that. In your first post you are clear that the problems are very low grade, perhaps even hard to see from the ground. With such a low grade problem a little bit of help might return a horse to 100%. Other members, the scientific research, and I myself hae seen such improvements with chonDrOitin/glucosamine containing products.

It is interesting the change noted after the increase in dose and change in product and as you note, it is uncertain what the cause is. Let us know how this plays out.
DrO
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 12, 2003 - 10:48 am:

I will be sure to update as the test period unfolds.

It is hard to describe the difference I feel in the riding. Typically, this is a mare who has a tendancy to use your hands as a 5th leg (feeling quite heavy) and lets her hind legs trail if you don't work to get/keep them engaged. You have to ride her nearly every step, and after 20-40 minutes, she will be stepping more under and feeling lighter in front. That plus the "feel" of irregularity on the left hind that works out. It is the kind of thing a dressage person would notice on a horse partner of 16+ years, ;=)

She usually doesn't have big ups and downs - how she comes out is fairly predictable.

The improvement I felt is that she flexed, lightly in front and was stepping through behind the moment we started warm up. It stayed consistent and I didn't have to ride every step to get basics, but could start riding every step to ask for more.

It is the same feel difference I have when I decide to bute her lightly for a clinc or, in the past, a show.

Hard to measure, I know. But it feels dramatic to me, and looks dramatic to my instructor because we both know the mare so well.

Thanks for the confirmation that this is, indeed possible, GRIN.

BTW, the Horse Journal article made a point of noting the supplements work best for active horses in reqular work - that less benefit was noted on retirees.

Now let me see if this continues.

Cheers.
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2003 - 12:16 pm:

Just to post an update - my mare continues to show this dramatic improvement - except when we over do it.

There has been a huge temptation to work a little too much on the hard things when she comes out so wonderful. Then, the next day or two, we notice a bit of ouchiness on the left hind. So, we're learning how much is too much.

BTW, she has taken up jumping on her own! Earlier this week, she was pleased to be coming in. Normally she is allowed to trot in on her own and goes straight to her stall. (Age has its priveledges.) This time, when it was time to come in, she circled the pasture at a nice easy canter a couple of times and very neatly jumped a ramp that was 3'4". Then she took a brush log, cantered through the dirt barn aisle, cleared a berm of plants that was amazingly wide, circled and then cleared it again, and inserted herself in her stall.

My riding instructor was agog! Also said her form was great, LOL. Very tight knees.

Maybe, at 20, she wants to do jumpers??? GRIN. The horse does have a sense of humor that enjoys mocking humans at times.

Just had to share. I think the supplement has made her comfortable and I just need to not over do it.

Cheers.
Member:
Fpony

Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2003 - 6:18 pm:

Chris! That was great!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 24, 2003 - 7:11 pm:

That really is the Catch-22 of treating DJD: it is easy to forget the horse continues to have a weak link that can still be pushed too far. Personally I try to keep them at the same work level they were at before the medicine, they just are more comfortable and I hope they have a slowed down progress of the DJD.
DrO
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2003 - 11:29 am:

Dr O,

Yes, I am guilty - where we tripped up is our collection exercises - just trying for a bit too much too soon. I remember having the same problem with her as a youngster - it is hard not to ask for more too quickly when the horse is giving you what you want. Lesson is relearned and shared.

Cheers.



Member:
Sheilab

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2003 - 2:47 pm:

Chris - I have thoroughly enjoyed reading about your escapades with your 20 yr old mare and Tri-Flex! You should receive proceeds from them for advertisement!
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 25, 2003 - 6:58 pm:

Chris, if you decide to do "jumpers", you could probably just tie up her reins and send her in on her own.....you could grab a bite to eat while she's in the arena....Gambler's Choice would be a good one to try until you're sure she can memorize a course.
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Monday, Dec 1, 2003 - 1:11 pm:

LOL - Elizabeth, that is exactly the jumping class for me! From the ground, ala dog agility.

Now, let me find my clicker and carrots, GRIN.
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