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  Discussion on Iodine and Almond oil injection in stifle
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Member:
5691

Posted on Monday, Mar 3, 2008 - 1:08 pm:

Hi All,

We are looking for a competitive dressage horse for my daughter to compete in the Young Rider program. My daughter's goal is to be able to compete at third level or higher by the age of 21. She is 17 now and rides/competes at Level 1.

We saw and my daughter rode a lovely 5yr old imported Hanovarian gelding yesterday. He had expressive, easy to ride gaits, picked up his leads easily and with no fuss, has an easy and willing attitude and was quite the gentleman in spite of a very windy, gusty day. He was ridden in an open arena and put his mind to work.

In short, he is a horse we would seriously consider except for the fact that 7 months ago he experienced a right hind "leg lock" that had to be manually released. He was taken to a well known veterinary clinic in Oakdale, California.

The stifle/tendon was US and the stifle Xrayed. All was pronounced normal and the tendon was not injured. The horse recieved an injection of iodine and almond oil (I did not think to ask the amounts) to "plump up the tendon and the muscle to keep the tendon in the proper place. The horse has had two injections since the leg locked a second time a week or two later and they injected it again.

The horse has had regular light work/training for the last six months and has gained weight and bulk as part of the recommended post injection orders. He has not had any problems with the leg in the six months since...

Has anyone had any experience with this procedure? In reading the articles on UPF, it doesn't sound very encouraging or reasonable to consider this young horse for the level of riding my daughter wants to do. I would be very interested in the thoughts/comments of the dressage riders connected with HA.

It has been suggested that I call UC Davis and Alamo Pintado to ask for a consultation with the veterinarians that I have been referred to. The owners are very willing to make available the US and xrays for consultation purposes. I also am going to consult Dr Carol Gillis for her thoughts and prognosis for a young horse with this situation.

If anything, I will gain a base of knowlege regarding this situation, but it sure would be nice to have a crystal ball to know if this talented boy would be worth the risk.

Smiles,
Debra
Member:
dres

Posted on Monday, Mar 3, 2008 - 1:39 pm:

Debra the Oakdale clinic is well known and the vets there , Dr. Black are very good.. a second opinion is always warranted tho.. ok this horse is only 5 years old and getting injections .. Maybe you should continue on with your search.. I know finding a good horse is hard and very time consuming but once had... we hope for a very long healthy sound life.. there are no guarantees,,, this one has already shown issues.. and is getting injections.. they are not cheap.. and the more one gets most often the injections work for shorter and shorter periods of time.. Or that is what the experience has been with competitive friends...

Have never heard of the Almond oil..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Mar 3, 2008 - 3:08 pm:

I don't know which clinic is more near for you, but I've had a lot of experience with Alamo Pintada and love the vets there; they are reknowned as "leg men." I especially like Dr. Mark Rick, but any of them are good.

Like Ann, I've never heard of this type of injection either.

I would certainly want a pre-purchase exam and a vet's opinion on this horses condition. I would be very leery of buying a horse with any condition as there are lots of good horses out there that are sound.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008 - 6:31 am:

Hello Debra,
I am uncertain where you got the idea the prognosis for this condition is not good.

Mild cases resolve with good foot care, some filling out, and maturity. In your case it appears the horse had a mild case and responded to the injections or perhaps just time and management. For persistent cases, the ligament splitting (not transection) procedure as described in the article on UFP had good results.
DrO
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008 - 8:59 am:

As far as I know for a dressage horse this is one of the better problems to have, as they get muscled up by their training calmly they usually do well. Ofcourse a horse without a problem is preferable but often you have to accept something. The price will be an issue too, he should be less expensive then a totally perfect horse.
If a good vet agrees he will be able to do his job I would certainly not discard him immediately. Loads of European warmbloods are big and late horses and perhaps more prone to problems on the other hand the end result often is worthwile.
Jos
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 4, 2008 - 9:00 pm:

Hi Debra,

I'd ask for the release papers from the original procedure and look for the vet's prognosis. I would also do a thorough pre-purchase.

Honestly I would be looking more for joint or bone issues than worrying about the stifle, which appears to have resolved very well. That 5 year-old seems to have been in heavy work for a long time to be performing at his current level. It can be tough on developing horses to enter hard work early.

Best of luck. Sounds like he has a wonderful mind.
Member:
5691

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 5, 2008 - 12:08 am:

Thank you all,

I appreciate your consideration and candor. We have been doing the horse search since October and have already experienced the disappointment of finding the "right one" only to discover during the pre- purchase exam that xrays revealed the lovely 7yr old had numerous navicular cysts on both front feet and bilateral fetlock lesions that the vet said probably was the beginnings of ringbone. There was absolutely no evidence of any of this during riding or the flexion exams and the owner was as stunned as we were.

It gets confusing listening to different folks at the barn... Most people hear "stifle problem" and are telling us to run, not walk away from this horse. But the reading that I do and two vets that I talked to said that this could just be a maturing situation and this could be just a passing incident that has been resolved with good managment and prompt attention.

There is one friend at the barn that shared with me the news that her mare (now going Level 1) had three!! episodes of leg lock as a 4/5 year old and after a year of pasture living and with careful riding and hill work, the mare has never had another episode.`

Any one know of any high level dressage horses that had a leg lock problem and are now successful?

Another concern I have is whether I would be able to get insurance coverage on the stifle(s). I am assuming that since this is a pre-existing condition that few, if any horse insurance companies would provide insurance without a waiver of the stifle(s). I was told by a trainer that some companies will cover if after a year of no problems are experienced, then they may include the stifle(s) in the policy.

Dr O- How often does a leg lock have to happen before it is considered persistent? Is there a graduated course of treatment or does treatment depend on the integrity and laxity of the tendon upon exam? ie.US

Smiles,
Debra
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 5, 2008 - 7:03 am:

Debra, I don't have any such number but 2 episodes six months ago is not it.
DrO
Member:
5691

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 5, 2008 - 1:21 pm:

Dear Dr O,

Thank you for my morning chuckle...I cannot dispute your assessment.

I am ,however, presented with the reality of discovering a young, well bred, nicely started, nicely moving, never shown gelding who seems to have a willing attitude, engaging personality and the potential talent to be an enjoyable and connected partner for my daughter as she takes the next few years to "ride her passion". The firm asking price is 30K, which is the highest end of my budget. The horse has had two injections into his stifle which may or may not be the end of the situation.

Walk away or continue to consider??? I love the idea of giving this young boy a chance to shine, but I gotta feel like I have examined all the angles before I even begin to get serious about negotiating for a lower price or paying for a pre purchase exam.

Im gonna pump the brakes for now and give our trainer a chance to view the video, give Dr Gillis a chance to review the medical records from Pioneer and go see a couple more horses that are on our list. If anything, my learning curve on stifles is arcing!!
Member:
dres

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 5, 2008 - 4:23 pm:

Debra, $30 K - free its a gamble no matter how you slice it..
At the Las Vegas World Cup that lovely gray mare Matinee shipped over seas for the event only to slip on the off ramp of her trailer to be scratched at the event... horses are high risk ...
enjoy the search..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 8:26 am:

An interesting retrospective survey of horses with prepurchase judgements of "suitability" at a well respected veterinary hospital yielded these results:
70% of those "approved" for their use were able to go and do what they were bought for.
That is not so surprising but what was surprising is that of those "not approved" yet bought anyway, 70% were able to go and do what they were bought for.

I will not give an opinion of the right thing to do here but will say the prognosis for a young horse with 2 episodes of UFP six months ago is good. It is the only factual statement I can make. I want you to keep in mind if everything is perfect, or at least perfect enough to pass a university prepurchase exam, that 30% of these horses will still fail at some level before making the goals of the owner.
DrO
Member:
5691

Posted on Thursday, Mar 6, 2008 - 11:08 pm:

Thank you DrO. Those are encouraging statistics and I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

So far, our trainer, plus a couple other trainers and some friends for whom we have great respect for their opinion, have viewed the tape and really liked what they saw..In the meantime we will wait for Dr Gillis's review and opinion.

We are getting a lot of good natured teasing about how we "know how to pick 'em." As you mentioned Ann..Its a gamble no matter how you slice it... Horses.... Ya gotta love 'em!!!

Smiles,
Debra
Member:
sswiley

Posted on Friday, Mar 7, 2008 - 4:26 pm:

I love that statistic of the 70%.
I quote it all the time. I do want to add my opinion about that data . . . .
I think the reason that 70% of the horses who failed the vet check went on to have successful careers is simply because the owners were aware of the "weak link" and developed a plan to properly take care of that particular horse. With all the knowledge we have these days, we can prevent all sorts of problems as long as we know where to focus our attention. That being said, I would not be suprised if you were able to give this horse a very sound future.
Member:
5691

Posted on Saturday, Mar 8, 2008 - 1:24 am:

Shelley,

Thank you for your kind and supportive response.

Your sensible observation reflects some of the "weak links" that are present in a number of the horses that we know in our barn such as corrective shoeing for early navicular, ulcer meds for horses prone to ulcers, consistent, considerate riding for some of the big warmbloods with "sloppy stifles". These owners have shared with me that they knew these horses had these problems prior to purchase and that the trade off in enjoyment of their horse far has outwieghed the managment of the problem.

I will keep you all posted as to how this plays out..

Smiles,
Debra
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