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  Discussion on On Ace, but still too excitable...
Author Message
Member:
leec

Posted on Friday, Mar 21, 2008 - 3:16 pm:

Hi Dr O,
I am having problems keeping my coming 3 yr old Appendix filly quiet while being confined after injuring her hind legs on March 13th – the area she is confined to is about 30’x30’. My vet and I discussed how we would deal with the confinement, as from past injuries and illnesses; we know she does not take well to it. We put her on Ace starting at 35mg (oral granules) every 12 hours and have now worked up to 45mg every 12 hours – she tapes at 1080 lbs. She is on free choice grass hay and is getting daily, 2 lbs of an 11% pellet with rice bran (I’m going to reduce to 1.5 lbs today), 1 cup of Farrier’s Formula and 56 grams of Cool Calories. For the first 5 days, she was also on 2 grams of Bute every 12 hours. Prior to her confinement, her hay was 60% grass/40% alfalfa and she was getting 84 grams of Cool Calories. She was also on 24/7 turn-out on 2.5 acres (no grass, we still have snow), which is sloped to steep with trees and rocky obstacles. Turned out, she was not an easy keeper – she moves around A LOT, a very energetic horse, who would rather run and play than eat. Back to my problem - the 45mg of Ace is not keeping her from periodically exploding into action – bucking, kicking, rearing, running around, sliding stops etc. This motion cannot be helping the healing process and I am afraid she is going to do further damage to herself. Amazingly, with all this exuberance, she is not sorer than when she came off the Bute. In saying that, she was quieter while she was on the Bute, even though her Ace was less – maybe just a coincidence... After reading your article, I’m wondering if because she is receiving the Ace orally and she always has food in her stomach, she is not getting the full effect. If that’s the case, should she be able to tolerate a higher dose? If so, I would increase gradually, but is there an amount that I should stop at, regardless if she is still 'bouncing around'? I hand walked her yesterday, thinking getting out and some light exercise would help, but it just made her worse when I put her back in – out is fun, in is boring. Any suggestions on what might help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanx, Lee C
Member:
stevens

Posted on Friday, Mar 21, 2008 - 5:40 pm:

I don't have any suggestions other than trying to give the ace by an IM injection. The article on this site on sedatives has guidance on the dosage whether the administration is IV, IM or orally.

I'd cut out all concentrates until she was under control and back to work. My two cents.

Good Luck and stay safe!

Chris
Member:
tbowner4

Posted on Friday, Mar 21, 2008 - 8:00 pm:

I would be very very careful with giving too much
ace at one time, internal organs may be damaged.
Have you asked your vet for instruction or options to utilize. I believe banamine would be a better choice; however, ASK your vet. You might be able to exercise with less pain and calming. banamine and ace worked for me under vet supervision good luck
Member:
sureed

Posted on Friday, Mar 21, 2008 - 8:33 pm:

In my experience, some horses react just the opposite to ACE, like kids on Benedryl, it can make them hyperactive. You really need to consult with your vet on this one rather than experiment with a higher dose.

Suzanne
Member:
zarr

Posted on Friday, Mar 21, 2008 - 9:57 pm:

Have to agree with Suzanne. The first time the farrier went to work on our mustang he said ACE would make him just a mello fellow, Big Joke ,fast movin farrier ! Since then I've seen quite a varience in horses on Ace. Good Luck!!! Cindy
Member:
frances

Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 8:32 am:

I definitely second cutting out all concentrates...
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 10:00 am:

Hello Lee,
The toxicity and contraindications for the use of ace are discussed in great detail in the article. You will notice there is no problem with organ toxicity but the contraindications need to be followed closely. The earlier posts are right you should discontinue all concentrates at this point. This observation of excitement following ace administration is probably not a pharmacological event so much as the particular situation where the ace was not able to overcome the circumstances for which the horse was given the ace, it is a very mild tranquilizer when compared to our more modern drugs.

There is no doubt the larger the meal the slower the absorption. How often a day are you giving the 45 mg of Ace?
DrO
Member:
clee

Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 11:19 am:

Have you thought of trying Reserpine?
Member:
leec

Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 4:45 pm:

Hi all,
Thank you for your replies - I will respond in order...

Chris - This horse has a severe aversion to needles and oral syringing. I'll try to keep this short. Since she was 2 weeks old, every 6 months she has an injury or illness that requires vet attention - in between I take care of the minor boo-boos. She has had more needles and meds syringed down her throat than most horses probably do in a lifetime. You would think she would get used to it, but she sees it as unjustified punishment. We have worked hard to get her to the point where she will stand for annual vacs and paste de-wormer. However, she 'snaps' if this is done on consecutive days, let alone 2x/day. She is not safe to handle in this state (there is only me @ 100 lbs and my husband who has no horse experience...) and afterwards becomes head/neck shy and it takes months to build her trust again. Therefore, whenever possible, my vet and I try to give her meds in concentrates. I agree about reducing the concentrates, but I need to give her enough to mask the Ace...

Owner & Trainer - I have no Banamine on hand. My vet is away until Monday. There is one on call for emergencies, but he won't give advice without seeing her. I don't consider this an emergency, so I thought I'd see what HA had to say. As you recommended, I would not try anything new without first talking to my vet.

Suzanne & Cindy - Yes, I have heard and read about horses that have opposite reactions. I don't think this is the case with my girl - I know her pretty good, she was born into my arms.

LL - See my last sentence to Chris above.

DrO - I re-read the article. I don't believe she is having 'uncommon symptoms' - when confined, she is always excited/restless. The Ace has not increased this. She has no 'conditions not appropriate-careful'. See my last sentence to Chris above re: the concentrates. A 'light bulb' came on when I read your post. Although she has free choice hay, she always 'has a meal' when I add fresh hay. She usually gets her concentrate/Ace dose prior to the addition of fresh hay. Possibly the hay is shoving the Ace out before it has a chance to be fully absorbed... I will wait an hour or so next time before I give her fresh hay and see if that makes any difference. The excitement is 'triggered'. If nothing is going on in the yard and it is quiet, she is quiet. Any movement or noise (human, ATV, dog etc.) sets her off. Things going on always interest her, but when not confined, she isn't over-reactive. So, no doubt her behaviour is confinement = boredom driven, as it is a playful, not spooky behaviour. It is unfortunate for the situation, but life must go on around her. She is getting the 45 mg every 12 hours - is there a different schedule I could try?

carolyn - I'm not familiar with Reserpine, so would want to discuss with my vet first. See my reply to 'Owner & Trainer' above for more about this.

To all - I'm beginning to think that given the situation, her behaviour is as good as I can expect at the moment. However, please do pass on any additional advice/ideas you might have.

Thanx, Lee
Member:
juliem

Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 5:38 pm:

You may have already tried this in regard to administering paste, but I'll pass on a tip my vet gave me when I acquired a pony who was very adverse to oral administration -- like wormers. He suggested I fill an empty and clean paste syringe with applesauce. Since she's very food motivated, a little taste of that applesauce totally changed her attitude. Now when she sees the syringe, she goes after it.If it's time to worm her, I use the applesauce before and after and she just acts as if that one bite was a bit "off" tasting, but she's still looking for more! I used this on my weanlings who have had to have , in addition to frequent worming, pepto bismal and yogurt administered. None of them require a halter to worm now and push each other out of the way when they see a syringe.
Member:
erika

Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 7:02 pm:

Lee, you probably have most stuff covered with the advice above. You're right in waiting after the ace to add much more food.

Another observation: Make sure you leave the horse in a calm environment until you're sure the ace has taken effect, then move to turnout. Once the horse is excited, I find it is less effective in "turning down the volume".
Member:
clee

Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2008 - 9:05 pm:

Hi again,I'm not sure what Reserpine is, but my vet said that it's like an anti-anxiety drug...I guess a lot of people like to show on it cuz it takes the edge off...but, it's illegal. I used it when starting my horse back to 5 minutes of trot after 60 days of rehab. I think it comes as an IM injection but I had it in suspension and gave it orally for 10 days (so, you could give it with a handful of cookies or whatever)...the effects take a bit of time to show but they last about a month. Tux was still able to "act out" if he was very determined but mostly pretty agreeable.

I've used Ace too, but have heard that they can "break out of it" and also it seems to create more of a dazed effect and therefore not so good if you are riding them...
Member:
sryder11

Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 11:23 am:

my experiences with Ace granules were that it was not very effective compared with injections. I would reduce/eliminate anything in her diet that could be causing stimulation. I gave Farrier's Formula to a sensitive horse once and it made him hyper. It is good you cut out the alfalfa, I would also try eliminating the pellets and fats as suggested in the other posts while she is confined. I have had very good results with herbal tranquilizers which contain valerian, hops, poppy etc such as Response from Hilton Herbs and lately I used a valerian blend for humans I bought at Whole Foods on my TB when he was recovering from foot problems. The herbs are not as powerful as a shot of Ace but they can take the edge off. My horse did not do well on Reserpine after a leg injury, it wore off after 3 days although I know it is not supposed to. Good Luck!
Member:
leec

Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 4:20 pm:

Hello,

So far, yesterday and today, Sienna has been quieter and less re-active to stimulation. As a result, my anxiety level has DrOpped! I was beginning to wonder if I should be on the Ace as well! Maybe it needed to be in her system for awhile to create an even 'level'...

Julie, using diluted pancake syrup in a syringe is how I got my girl to the point that she's at. I agree the method does work. For her, I don't think it's a taste issue. She spent 6 weeks at a vet clinic as a foal receiving IM and oral meds. I have a feeling she may have been handled a little roughly - not enough time passed for her to 'forget' before she had to receive more of the same (4 more rounds of it before she was 18 months old). I had her almost over the fear or whatever it was she was feeling about it, when she got sick again last spring and went through a month of oral syringing 2x/day. This time I was away and her meds were administered by an 'experienced' horse person. She came home extremely head shy in addition to pinning her ears when putting your hand near her face. We did the pancake syrup thing again, and she is okay with de-worming, but even with the syrup, she seems to have 'flashbacks' when you try to syringe her a couple days in a row. I guess it might be like how some abused horses probably re-act (which in her mind, she no doubt feels she's been abused...).

Erika, I can say I am not looking forward to the re-introduction of turn-out! Thank you for the tip. My plan was to introduce turn-out while she is still on the full dose and then gradually cut back. Is this how you would suggest doing it? If so, over what time period would you reduce the Ace - over a week, or...?

carolyn, I'm going to ask my vet about the Reserpine, thank you for the information. The vet is scheduled to come up on March 28th. From there, if Sienna must continue to be confined, I would like to know about all the other options available to keep her as calm as possible, without doing internal harm. Yes, I have noticed that she can break out of the Ace. She is not yet under saddle - had plans to send her for training May 1. We'll see what the vet says after her exam this Friday. Under normal conditions, is Tux usually a calm horse or is he high spirited?

Huh, interesting Susanne, about the Farrier's Formula. I read the ingredients and the first one is Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal - makes me wonder... As suggested, I am reducing the pellets and fats (I don't like to change diet abruptly) - should be down to just a handful of pellets to give with her Ace by Tuesday. I'm going to do some research on the herbal stuff - thanks for the idea. Is your TB high spirited?

DrO, can you tell us anything about Farrier's Formula with regards to it increasing energy in already energetic horses (or any horses)?

Thanx, Lee C
Member:
sryder11

Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 5:07 pm:

I have owned several TBs and they get hyper or edgy on "thin air" including most multi-vitamin supplements. Most other people have told me they have no problems with Farrier's Formula but I did have one horse who was better off without it.
Member:
clee

Posted on Sunday, Mar 23, 2008 - 6:43 pm:

Hi Lee, Tux is a coming 8 y/o Anglo-Trakehner and is normally quite sane...even with those 2 breeds combined. He's quite the workaholic and doesn't so lay ups well; so 5 minutes of trot and 30 minutes of walk a day don't suit him. :-)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 24, 2008 - 8:07 am:

It seems unlikely that Farriers Formula would be responsible for increasing a horses energy level unless it is supplying something that is deficient in the diet. You could go to 3 times daily on the Ace. Note that the article Training & Conditioning Horses » Behavioral Problems » Stall Resting Horses has several pharmacological recommendations.
DrO
Member:
leec

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 12:44 pm:

Hi all,
Well, Sienna's quiet this AM and has been good since the 23rd. A few episodes of 'play', but not to the 'I can't look' extreme she was prior. I've weaned her off the concentrates, with the exception of the Farrier's Formula. We have a hoof we're trying to grow out as quickly as possible due to an abscess, so I'd like to keep her on the FF. I've kept her at the 45 mg Ace every 12 hours - this is just easier when I can't always be home at the right time for a 3rd dose. I tried to cut it back a bit for a dose, thinking with the concentrates gone, she might not require as much. However, the excitability started to return, so I went back to what worked.

Now I need a couple more bits of advice... After this PM, the vet wants me to cut her off the Ace for her visit on the 28th. Should I give her only a half dose tonight (today will be her 11th day on it)? My vet was fine with stopping it abruptly at the full dose, given that she hasn't been on it for say, months. Just wanted additional opinions on this. Also, being that she will not receive any Ace tomorrow or Friday AM before the vet arrives, should I try to exercise her in leu of? My concern about taking her out and walking her is it makes her upset when she's put back in. Without being on the Ace, I'm afraid she'll tear around until she's in a lather, or worse... Has anyone been in a similar situation with a horse of this 'type' that can offer suggestions on this?
Thanx, Lee C
Member:
cpacer

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 6:05 pm:

Have you heard of Rescue Remedy? https://www.rescueremedy.com/

My equine chiropractor recommended giving one full squirt during tense times--I haven't actually given it to my horse yet, but do give myself a couple DrOps which calms everyone down.
Member:
shirl

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2008 - 6:41 pm:

Works for my "needle shy" horse! I dose her with a DrOpper full every 15 minutes for an hour before any trauma is about to take place. Shots,
etc. Calms her a lot. Also works for dogs during thunder storms.
Shirl
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 6:38 am:

Hello Lee,
there is no problem with abruptly stopping the Ace other than you have to deal with the horse unsedated. Have you discussed your concerns with the vet?
DrO
New Member:
parker66

Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 4:14 pm:

One word can solve the problem with this horse...FLUPHENAZINE. Just use it and all your problems will be solved.
Member:
scooter

Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 4:41 pm:

Rodney I have had TB's on stall rest be quite unmanageable while on Fluphenazine. They were quieter in the stall....but hand walking required ace on top of the fluphenazine, with the potential side effects of Fluphenazine I think I would prefer the ace. Maybe it affects horses differently, but I was not impressed with it.
Member:
dres

Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 6:47 pm:

Rodney I used fluphenazine with a filly i had on stall rest.. there were mild changes with her and lasted about 2.5 weeks.. BUT by the third dose she became more agitated then before.. This can be a common occurrence with this drug.. I went back to dosing her with Ace.. it was more consistent for our needs..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
leec

Posted on Thursday, Mar 27, 2008 - 6:50 pm:

Hello all,

DrO, my vet felt she would be fine, with being off the concentrates/alfalfa and me keeping her busy. I was to call her if she wasn't. I made plans to be home all day today and tomorrow to 'babysit'.

Mother Nature decided to give me a hand through this, however... We have been having nights with below zero temperatures, which has nicely stiffened up my soggy, slippery pasture, then yesterday morning it snowed 4 inches of perfect 'horse footing' snow. So, yesterday afternoon I walked my girl into the pasture (still on her full Ace) and let her play for a half hour. She always pretty much stays with me, so I stuck to the flatter areas. She had a few 'yahoos', but nothing worse than she's been doing confined. We then just walked around together. She would have been very silly if not for the Ace, so I'm glad I was able to get her out while she was still on it. The first turn-out after a period of confinement is always such a big deal to horses. For whatever reason, confining her from the pasture doesn't get her upset like confining her after a walk around the yard etc. Anyway, she's been fairly quiet all day today - she's had 3 walks and she's been great. I'm sure she still has some of the Ace in her system, so tonight and tomorrow might be different... If further confinement is recommended after the vet sees her tomorrow, I'll fill you all in with what we decide to use to continue to keep her quiet and the reasons why.

In reading everyones ideas, feedback and experiences, it was a reminder that, like training, what works for one horse isn't always going to work for another...

Thank you all for your responses.
Lee C
Member:
parker66

Posted on Friday, Mar 28, 2008 - 1:52 pm:

The psychotic drugs work differently on each horse. I've had much better luck with Fluphenazine. We had a horse who was "ruled off" from a racetrack for bad manners. We gave him Fluphenazine and he's literally the easiest horse to ride in the barn and he also stopped biting and rearing up. In my mind, it's a miracle drug. But as with any drug, the results may vary horse to horse.

You are right, though, two doses max. And anyone reading this - don't give ace while they are on Fluphenazine.
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