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  Discussion on Bute power after expiration date
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Member:
muffi

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 15, 2008 - 3:06 pm:

my horse (1200 lbs) had a reaction to spring shots. Flu, rhino 3 way shot from Fort Dodge - gets them every time. His is stiff and slow - Temp normal.
I have an old tube of bute around that expired last March 2007 - question is how effective is it? I gave him 2 cc dose about an hour ago. If I read your details on admimistration well - it said a horse 1000 lbs or over can have 2 cc's twice a day for pain. and under the section on Yearly shots it said if they recieved reaction that is it common practice to give Bute for approx 3 days or until they appear normal again. (72 hrs I believe)
so is that bute ok? getting vets out to the sticks where I live is not an easy task - but will make every attempt to get a new - current tube of the stuff from the vet next time I see him.
Thnks Dr O.

Muffi & Comet
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 15, 2008 - 9:24 pm:

Once out of date we do not known how fast it will degenerate Muffi, so you should get yourself a fresh tube. For more on treating these reactions see, Horse Care » Horse Vaccines, Vaccination, Coggins Test » Vaccines and Adverse Reactions.
DrO
Member:
freshman

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 16, 2008 - 4:48 am:

Rumor always has that most drugs are good past their expiration dates. The drug does not magically lose efficacy on one certain day or even month or year. But this is beside the point, I think, because the medication is no longer backed by the manufacturer or drug company after it is expired. Even by one day.

So I don't give any drug or medication that is expired. Expired means that the will not be liable after whatever arbitrary date printed on the label. So while the bute (or wormer or whatever) may be just as good as it was the day it was made, it is also just as bad--meaning if there were something wrong with it, no matter if it were bad from day one or just became bad after it aged past the expiration date, the company will not compensate the owner for any medical treatment or the loss of a horse that gets sick or dies from its administration. Won't even give you the time of day or look into a claim.

So in my book, it is bad the day it expires. Into the trash. No matter how expensive it is to toss medicine that may be effective and buy new, it is even more expensive to deal with an animal (or human, same rules apply) that suffers a negative effect from a product that is expired--no matter if it has anything to do with the date or not. There is no recourse with expired drugs.
Member:
muffi

Posted on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 - 12:59 pm:

Freshman - I agree to your post but... I live in the middle of nowhere and some times it is an act of God to get a vet here. few and far between -
I just had some left over and will renew it once I can get a vet to get me some as it is a controlled substance.
:o) so I totally agree with you. by the way - it did do some help the second dose - I noticed marked relief on the part of the horse. wasn't hanging his neck down so lax. had a little light back in his eyes and then the 4th day after (today) the "flu" shot he is fine not a problem any longer. only gave 2 grams each time - 4 total for 24 hours no additional doses.
He always gets a reaction to spring shots. This year it just seemed more severe.
but all's well that ends well - Dr O's Updates on line are my Favorite "Local Vet"!!! thanks Dr O.
Member:
tbowner4

Posted on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008 - 7:59 pm:

I agree with tossing outdated drugs. even one day. I too toss to the trash no matter what.
I learned years ago, I had asked the vet about using an outdated drug, he commented be ok just not as strong, come find out, he thought I said bute and it was banamine. Killed my horse.
Never again will I use an outdated med. Just luck nothing happened.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 - 7:03 am:

There is a lot of ying and yang to the posts above with generalities that may not apply to certain specific situations. The expiration date on a medication is supposed to represent the date at which the product is still safe and retains at least 90% of its potency when storage recommendations have been followed. That last is key because most horse medications have been stored in less than ideal conditions which will greatly increase the rate of breakdown. When such medications are efficacy uncertain.

And this gets us to our second point the one of developing toxicity. Though not a problem with most medications there are known exceptions and since this is not researched the question of problems explored by trial and error. Throw in the uncertainties of storage, which may also effect how the chemicals break down, all out of date medications are of uncertain toxicity so there use must be done at the horse owners risk. That said, I have not heard of this problem with flunixin (Banamine), can you describe the situation and what happened?
DrO
Member:
tbowner4

Posted on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 - 2:49 pm:

My horse was given several medications with an illness of colick and I was told to give him the banamine Paste after the third day with only the ulcer medication .....after two treatments he passed away.
I can not prove that the banamine was the actual cause; however, the events that lead up to that time frame was a result of the banamine. The paste had been stored in a refrigerator with a monitor on the temperature. It was 4 months out of the expiration date. Regardless, I will never ever give medications that are outdated again, even by one day or week. thanks
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Friday, Apr 18, 2008 - 10:29 pm:

Upon my Veterinarians advice, I have used out-of-date Bute and Banamine with no problems whatsoever. When either product gets "old" I have found that it changes color. I think that this is a "common sense" issue and that the manner in which the medication has been stored is very important. I also think that the drug companies, like other retailers, put those dates on there to make MORE MONEY. Many out of date drugs are exported and used in other countries without difficulty. Some drugs lose efficacy faster than others or may even become dangerous (tetracycline). I personally have ingested out-of-date medications without worry or incidence.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Apr 19, 2008 - 9:46 am:

Not giving medications out of date is wise. But I can say with a fair amount of surety it was NOT the flunixin (Banamine) paste, well stored and only 4 months out of date, that caused your horses death because it had gone bad.
DrO
Member:
canter

Posted on Saturday, Apr 19, 2008 - 9:51 am:

Vicki, any out of date drugs (at least human) that are exported, are exported illegally, due to the safety concerns. Drug manufacturers do not put dates on the products to make more money, but to ensure safety and efficacy...The FDA regulates pretty much anything and every word and number on every package of pharmaceuticals.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Apr 19, 2008 - 10:10 pm:

Fran, I appreciate your point of view, but my ex-husband, is a registered pharmacist who was also a regional drug buyer and cost-efficiency expert for Kaiser-Permanente for many years. His opinion on this is quite different from yours. You may call me a cynic, but I think that expiration dates on many things (not just drugs)have more to do with profit than safety and I am not very impressed with the FDA or drug manufacturers who have allowed (and highly promoted) the sales of some drugs for many years whose test research results were highly questionable with regard to effectiveness, and worse yet, safety.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Saturday, Apr 19, 2008 - 10:11 pm:

Fran, I appreciate your point of view but my ex-husband is a registered pharmacist who was also a regional drug buyer and cost-efficiency expert for Kaiser-Permanente for many years. His opinion on this is quite different from yours. You may call me a cynic, but I think that expiration dates on many things (not just drugs)have more to do with profit than safety and I am not very impressed with the FDA or drug manufacturers who have allowed (and highly promoted) the sales of some drugs for many years whose test research results were highly questionable with regard to effectiveness, and worse yet, safety.
Member:
canter

Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 8:09 am:

Vicki,
Three times in recent years, I have received three errors from a local pharmacist. Twice, I was shorted on the pill counts and once I received the wrong product. Yet, I would not say that pharmacists are profiteering crooks trying to kill me. It's not fair, nor is it true.

Yep, I work for that dreaded, awful pharmaceutical industry. And am proud of it. It is an industry that has improved and saved millions of lives around the world. My own company has charitable programs in over 100 countries that are focused on education, prevention and cure of horrible disease. One such program is to eliminate Lymphatic Filariasis (elephantiasis). There are over 1 billion people world wide at risk for this. So far, we donated over 600MM preventative treatments...DONATED them. The company discovered the treatment and has not made one penny on it because it is the people in third world countries who suffer from this disease, yet cannot pay for the meds. Annually, we donate hundreds of millions in AIDs and malaria meds and vaccines and antibiotics to those who suffer during natural disasters and the innocent victims of war.

So, people can perpetuate unfair and untrue myths about the industry (I'm not saying that mistakes aren't made, they are, just like in any other industry. Where there are people, there are screw ups), but they should also be fair and not forget to mention the good that is done as well.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 10:37 am:

Fran, I certainly did NOT say anything of the sort ("profiteering crooks"), but to deny that any for-profit company does not have PROFIT as a primary motive (and they SHOULD have) is rather unrealistic. I think that I liked the industry better though, when they did not advertise and try to get so many people to pester their doctors to put them on drugs that are very often not needed. My father is just one of the individuals who I know who has had his life devastated by statin drugs (I will not name the drug) and is not improving. He returned again and again to his doctor saying that he was getting weaker and weaker and would soon end up in a wheelchair. Since the statin was losing effectiveness in keeping his cholesterol unrealistically low, the doctor actually upped the dosage by 50%, which was devastating. Many drugs are now being used to potentially avoid problems that may not even develop, at a huge cost to individuals and the taxpayers. And I think that it is an outrage when there are studies that show dangers (or lack of efficacy) for years, but those drugs continue to be actively marketed and routinely prescribed. For example, the drug that reportedly caused the loss of 1000 lives monthly (through kidney failure) when given to prevent bleeding problems post surgery in heart and other patients. I don't have anything against what you do for a living. In fact, my daughter-in-law has been very successful as a drug company representative. I believe that there are some drugs where expiration dates are extremely important, but others where perhaps those dates do much more to enhance the "bottom line" than protect users.
New Member:
jtsworld

Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 4:12 pm:

I have a Q about horses with high tail carriage. Has Botox been used and is it safer than what has been used in the past (that could kill a tail)? Can they just partially deaden the muscle so the horse could not lift it high but still swing side to side?
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 4:47 pm:

Why would anyone not want a high tail carriage?
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 9:04 pm:

Reiners, Sara, Western Pleasure. A tail up and wringing or flinging around is not looked at as a relaxed mount enjoying his craft.

Vicki: My life has been personally devastated by 8 months on a statin....5mg dose. I, too will refrain from naming the drug, although I'd love to. I was placed on it when I needed heart valve repair surgery in 2007. Before the surgery, a cardiac cath. revealed crystal clear cardiac arteries and my carotid doppler also showed clear. I had to take MYSELF off because my cardiologist ( not now ) insisted it wasn't the statin. When the pain became unbearable and I was too weak to stand, I went in the hospital for 6 days of testing. Every test known to man -$13,000 worth. The bloodwork showed a LOT. Mostly evidence of tissue breakdown. But they said the results were inconclusive. However, the longer I was off the statin, the better the bloodwork became and the better I felt.

When I returned to the Dr. after 2 weeks, I felt like a new woman. My echocardiogram showed complete improvement in 2 wks (no fluid in pericardial sac). My strength was returning, my joint pain ( shoulder, hip, knee )gone, muscle pain nonexistent and, oh, a host of other symptoms...vanished....and the Dr. said " Let's see what other statin we can get you on". DUH

He's not my Dr. anymore. I've gotten back about 60% of what I'd lost muscle wise. No matter how hard I try, I can make no more progress.

If you're troubled about your health, talk to your Dr. until you have a very satisfactory solution. Don't settle for "we're all getting older". Change doctors if you have to.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 9:07 pm:

Hey, Guys, I'm sorry to slip sideways on this discussion.
Member:
muffi

Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 9:33 pm:

You guys are funny -
for the record - I still haven't called the vet to get a new batch (but will soon I promise)
my horse if fine.
I normally toss People stuff that is out of date - Mostly.... ok not always depends on what it was and how expensive. Gotta keep the spare pain pills around for when I fall. I'm getting to old to fall easy any more.
and I like my horse tail up when he prances. Looks pretty - but then I don;t show western pleasure. I just have pleasure.
to each his own - i just hate doing artificial stuff to a horse to make it pass for show - Kind of like Soaring... nuff said
Member:
mrose

Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 11:07 pm:

Lee, the tail bit must be a QH thing. Arabs look great with their tail up. When it's down we get worried about them.

You are "right on" about the not settling re: your health. Proper diet, exercise, and a good doctor make a world of difference. I know people in their 80's still endurance riding and reining. I intend to follow their lead.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Monday, Apr 21, 2008 - 11:29 pm:

Oh, Muffi, you remind me of a show I was at many, many years ago. One of "The" major pleasure horse trainers ( the "trainer de jure" - I won't say the name )mounted the pleasure horse "de jure" that had been thoroughly prepped by his "peons" and proceeded to ride a beautiful Western Pleasure class. A perfect ride....the horse didn't even twitch an ear. Quite a comeuppance when during the "line up" the judge walked down the line behind the horses (supposedly to check numbers), and reached up into the tail of the horse and trainer "de jure" and removed the tightly wrapped rubber band cutting off the circulation and feeling in the horse's tail ( a trick that greatly inhibited the horse's ability to "wring" that tail ). In the stands, we knew not whether to gasp, or laugh...or avert our eyes and look away. The trainer was suspended for quite a while. Unfortunately, the same trainer came back after suspension ( he was the type who greatly enjoyed the hospitality tent - if you know what I mean ), and took another mount from his lackeys at the "in" gate to ride a reining pattern, and started off in a "highly" exuberant mood. Halfway through the first large fast circle, the saddle started slipping into a decidedly sideways sling and he had to unceremoniously dismount during his run. Seems his "lackys" had forgotten to tighten the girth and the overindulgent hospitality tent trainer had neglected to check it before being "legged up" and mounted and entering the arena.

Once in a while, my friends, justice prevails.
Member:
canter

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 22, 2008 - 7:35 am:

Well, we've gotten a bit off track here. I'm very sorry your Dad is not feeling well, Vicki. I agree with Lee and Sara. If your Dad is not reacting well to a medication, he should discuss with his doctor alternative therapies. Certainly, the medication should not be increased.

I did not accuse you of saying the profiteering crooks thing. I made an analogy to illustrate a point. Apparently I did not do such a good job of it. Nor do I deny that companies are trying to make a profit. Of course they are...it's the only way to reinvest in research to hopefully develop a cure for cancer or AIDs or diabetes, to donate meds to third world countries, to stay in business.

Anyway, I will not continue on with this debate. It's not why I enjoy HA. However, please know, Vicki, that your Dad is in my prayers.
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 22, 2008 - 12:29 pm:

Thank you for sharing this Lee. I am very happy that you are doing better and wisely got off of the statin drugs in time so that the damages could be reversed. So much time has passed with my Dad in his weakened condition that we don't know whether the muscle weakness will ever improve. He has a much better doctor now. My Dad worked out every day and had always been so strong, and this makes it all the harder to see him struggling so much. When it was ascertained that he had sustained the muscle damages through a muscle biopsy, (kidney/liver also affected but that improved), he was immediately taken off of the statins. His current (conventional) doctor has incorporated some holistic treatments, including oatmeal daily and a tsp. of cinnamon and some kind of B vitamin (the one that causes "flushing" -- niacin?). Thank you Fran, for the well wishes and prayers. To me the main point to be taken from this thread is perhaps that all things are not black and white, that we need to do our homework and continually update our knowledge for the good of our horses, and ourselves. And that we should keep an open mind. Wish I had time to get into the discussion about tails, but my horse and I are going camping! Thanks to all for your input.
Member:
paul303

Posted on Wednesday, Apr 23, 2008 - 10:53 pm:

Vicki: The niacin and also the red yeast or whatever it is works in the mevalonate pathway- the same way the statins do....be careful. Shoot, Vicki, there is a lot of new info on statins. Google Beatrice Golomb U. of San Diego-much research and a statin study to take part in. Also google the atrogin 1 gene. Your father may be too old for statins to be of any benefit. And now, folks.....back to HorseAdvice!
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