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Discussion on Ace for the buddy sour horse
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 4:37 pm:
I have two intensely pair bonded horses. Today, I administered 4mg im ace to the mare and took the gelding to stay down the street for awhile.
The mare would ordinarily be soaked in sweat and running herself into the ground. With the ace, she's pacing and calling now and then, but not in danger of hurting herself.
The ace was administered 2.5 hours ago and she seems to be getting a bit more worked up.
If anyone could advise when I could re-dose her and what kind of dosages remain safe, I'd appreciate it. We started with 2mg which didn't do much, and added another 2mg.
I'd also be grateful for any behavioral advice to help break through this. If I go outside and interact with her, she does better, but I can't spend all day with her.
The other one is with a new friend and is less concerned.
I also have some rompun but that seems like it might be strong for just behavioral problems. And I only have two doses of rompun, but a whole vial of ace.
Thanks
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 4:48 pm:
I mistyped when I said mg...I believe it is cc's that I'm measuring, not mg.
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 5:25 pm:
Kayla, I don't give advice for medications, but I am curious about something.
You said you took the gelding away to stay for awhile. I'm wondering a couple of things. Horses are intensely herd animals. Are there other horses on your property, so that she is not completely alone? You didn't mention whether you have other animals there. If she is completely alone, she will have a very hard time adjusting.
Personally, I've never gone with complete separation for herdbound, or even pair bound animals. I use a technique, well taught by John Lyons, of helping the horse become more confident over time, so that they don't panic when they are separated from their buddies.
Basically, I think it's better than a drastic separation. No one goes through intense trauma, or drama, and there's no concern of anyone, horse or human, getting hurt. In addition, you end up with a wiser, more confident, more calm horse, because it's building emotional maturity through training.
If you are interested in this technique, I could provide more info, or point you to one of his books on the subject.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 5:34 pm:
Kayla,
I know its a bit late now, since you have already separated them, but what I have done in the past with a similar situation is to take one out the day before the separation and put them in the barn. I usually take out my broodmare because she is the one that usually leaves, she is also the one that gets the most upset, they are both near enough to each other to settle down overnight and I don't normally have any problems once the gelding figures out the mare is gone.
If you bring your mare in does she get just as upset?
Are there any other horses you could put her with?
Rachelle
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 5:44 pm:
Karin, we've been working this as a slow process for a month. There has been vast improvement, but the problem is still pretty bad. Sometimes, sucking it up and going cold turkey is the best way to get through something.
I believe I'm familiar with JL's technique and it is mostly geared towards the horse that is with you. (Ride away, come back, ride away, come back, wash, rinse, repeat.) What happens here is the one left behind can get so frenzied as to hurt him or herself. It's dangerous. (The one with me is usually coping better.)
Vet recommended using ace to help get through this process. He has seen, first hand, just how bad it is.
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 5:47 pm:
Rachel, I have been separating them for some hours/day, about 4 days/week for a month. They were about an acre away, but could see each other. It helped a little but other things could trigger behaviors that were dangerous to them or even to me.
I am only permitted two horses on my property and that's not a good number. One is better, or 3 or more are better.
I currently own 3 and one lives at my neighbors...so one way or another, one is alone.
I could bring the non-pair bonded gelding over to visit her, leaving my pair bonded gelding alone.
I've tried to think through all of the possible configurations. Mare does poorly even when moving to a new place with her budd...so I think she needs to stay in my yard. The others can be shuffled as needed.
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 7:43 pm:
Kayla, John Lyons actually has a nice article about working with both horses while mounted. If your horses get to the dangerous point, you could do the same kind of thing with ground games. Or work with the one left behind, doing groundwork, while the other is moved progressively further away.
If you are interested:
https://www.myhorse.com/training/english/help_for_the_herd_bound.aspx?ht=#top
IMO, horses don't understand cold turkey. It works in people because their rational minds (hopefully) can override their emotions. But when a horse is terrified, there is no rational mind.
I've worked with plenty of herd bound horses, and a month was almost never enough for the severely over-attached. I'm not sure your passive separations were really helpful in developing emotional maturity. I've found it works better if the horse is asked to engage its mind to work off mild anxiety. That's what results in a more confident horse. They learn there is something they can do to feel better.
I always get a bit nervous about posting in this forum because I have a much more 'horse-centric' approach than many. I don't like putting horses through more trauma, and always look for gentler ways to accomplish the same goals. And I've also learned that they often don't progress on my schedule. It takes as long as it takes. I have been rescuing abused horses for more than 25 years now, and have a pretty good track record with turning them into safe and confident horses. So I offer what I know in case it helps. If it doesn't, just don't pay me no never mind. 
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 8:44 pm:
Gah! Web browser ate my long reply. :-( Let me try again.
JL's technique is a type of systematic desensitization. What I'm doing is more like a flooding technique. Both come out of behaviorism theory. Both will work on any kind of mammal, not just human. Neither requires insight or cognitive processing.
But the JL technique is solving a different problem than the one I'm having. That is a technique to use when you have a horse that doesn't like to ride away from another horse. It also requires two people (though it can be modified.)
The problem here isn't riding away....the problem here is not with the horse that leaves. The problem here is with the horse who is left behind. And it is dangerous to allow it to continue because the left-behind horse is so likely to get hurt.
I can't let this go on and on and I can't approach it slowly. Progress has been made, but if you'd have seen what happened as recently as yesterday, you'd be looking to make something happen NOW before you end up with a horse that needs to be put down because its injured itself.
I used the ace to take the edge of my mare so that she wouldn't hurt herself. She's unhappy, but she's not freaking out. She's pacing, but not running and hasn't even worked up a sweat. She's calling sometimes, but not screaming. In fact, she's currently nibbling on hay.
I have researched EVERY possible way to deal with this. I am familiar with the JL work you're referencing. But it's the wrong tool because it's a different problem.
Maybe I should have left the behavioral out of my post and kept it to the ace, since we're in that section.
Though at this point, enough time has passed that I don't believe I will re-drug her. She's doing pretty well.
I take it you disapprove of my methods and I will confess that in some ways I'm shooting in the dark. But I have a solid knowledge of behavioral therapy and shaping (for any mammal) and am taking those principles and applying them to two horses.
From what I'm seeing 7 hours into this, I think I'm heading down the right path.
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 9:19 pm:
Kayla, I'm glad it's working for you. And I apologize if I inserted myself in a way that was not helpful.
It's not my place to approve or disapprove, as I posted above. If it's not helpful, I would hope you would disregard it.
There are many different philosophies of horse behavior and how to deal with problems. We all have our preferences.
FWIW, I don't see Lyons as dealing with a different problem, they are all variations of insecurity (or as I call it, lack of confidence). Feeling safer in herds or with buddies is natural to all horses and it is generally exacerbated by a horse's past experience (or temperament), or they are minimized by training.
You are doing training of a sort. I happen to prefer a different kind of training to deal with these issues.
But as I said, I do not judge you at all. Just offering another perspective. My perspective comes from dealing with many insecure horses over a long period of time. You can flood away a particular unwanted behavior, but I have found that flooding generally does not increase overall confidence; and the horse continues to exhibit anxiety in other areas. I've found that it's hard to flood all such anxiety-producing situations. And I've found that if you train a horse to become more confident, that confidence generalizes to all kinds of frightening situations. But every owner is unique, every horse is unique, and every situation is unique. You are the only one with all the knowledge about your own unique situation, and the best one suited to make decisions about it.
Again, there really is no judgment here. And I truly am glad this is working for you. And you are also correct that this is a medication thread, not a training thread. Mea culpa.
And I will go back to lurking. ;-)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 9:47 pm:
Kayla, having gone through this "wonderful" buddy sour thing, I am wondering if you plan on putting the 2 back together again? If not you will probably be fine...they do eventually get over it .
But in my experience if you bring the other horse back the bond forms all over again and sometimes gets worse. A strong corral is about the only "cure" then.
I had one jump a fence once when we were trailering "buddy" out and run behind the trailer until we saw him....it can be a dangerous thing, some horses get beyond panicy. Could you get the horse left behind a mini or something for company?
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Sunday, Oct 19, 2008 - 10:34 pm:
Diane, I'm afraid of what happens after they are reunited. :-(
I'd love to hear your experience.
One of the huge underlying problems here is that my homeowner's association only permits two equines. No other livestock. I don't know if I could sneak a mini in or not. But two is the absolute worst number for horses.
And yes, it can be dangerous to both horse and human. Mostly, the horse that is with me is fine...but the one that is left behind tends to run itself ragged.
I'm surprised at how well they are both doing today but I'm not sure about next steps. I'm really drawing on my behaviorism background rather than having been down this path.
Please tell me about your experiences.
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 7:07 am:
Kayla as Karin stated horses are herd animals, some are way worse than others. Not knowing your horses personalitys or your set up all I can tell you is what helped mine. (they never got over it) I have taken them away, but when they come back it didn't take long for the bond to reform and in one instance it got worse. My arab gelding (for instance), whom I still own completely looses it when left alone, so I can picture what you are talking about!
What works for him....I have a paddock area with board fenceing around the lean to area, he goes in there when I'm ready to leave, with his favorite food...alfalfa!! along with other things to pick at! The first couple of times he was still very frantic, but I knew he was safe. I kept the separations short. He got better and better as time went on and now looks forward to his lock up and treats. He will still call once in awhile, but he is not frantic and all sweaty when I get back. His personality will never change, but he is safe, and much more relaxed.
Funny how some horses are fine and others just can't take it and melt down. Good Luck
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 7:12 am:
PS interestingly enough I can ride this horse alone for hours and he could care less...doesn't even whinny, it's when he is left behind he looses his mind. Figure that out!!
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 7:28 am:
With Hank who WAS frantic, whether he was the one being ridden or left home, we played peek-a-boo. (thus his nick name BOO) I would take him in front of the house where he couldn't see the other horses and let him graze the good grass, when he started whinnying I would take him out where he could see the other horses, then back in front of the house...repeat. It didn't take long before I could separate him for longer periods, both the arab(in the pasture) and Hank knew he
was close by even tho they couldn't see each other. He is MUCH better, but can still be a little goofy riding when coming home, (fine in the pasture) though at this point I don't think it is a buddy sour issue. Just Hank! Unfortunately there are no quick cures, or even cures at all. Just something you have to manage best you can.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 7:45 am:
I had one jump out of a paddock before too. I have given up separating, only to have them rebond and start all over again. I ended up with a third. Too bad there is no other option for you. Since it sounds like there is another farm close by, could you borrow a friend from the neighbors when you want to take the other off property?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 7:52 am:
Hello Kayla,
This is not a simple question Kayla as a recommended dosage for your horse must come from your veterinarian for there may be factors we are unaware of that could effect this. The article on acepromazine gives recommended dosage rates for healthy horses but be careful to understand the difference between cc's and mg's. Together they give you the actual dosage rate:
(cc's given) x (concentration of medication) = dosage given
As to retreatment there are no standardly accepted safe retreatment rates. For many horses in such a situation, I would consider retreatment with the maximum dose 4 hours a apart, several times a day to have a acceptable rate of complications for situations where a horse may hurt itself without medication.
DrO
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 10:55 am:
My vet had said start with 2ml. Wait 20 minutes. Redose with another 2ml. I asked about what happens after that but he kind of shrugged.
I gave her 3ml last night and she was pretty restless. I feel so sorry for her. Not sure if I should redose this morning.
She's not in danger of hurting herself, but I am in danger of the neighbors hurting me if I can't get her to quit calling. 
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 12:24 pm:
I think Gwen had a good idea, in perhaps borrowing another horse to leave with her when you are going to be gone.
If your neighbors are unhappy, perhaps you can bring your third horse back for a bit to ease the transition.
The problem with allowing a horse to get to this level of extreme anxiety is that it tends to exacerbate the problem, rather than making it better, in the long run. Each time the horse gets worked up, it has more learned associations to that high anxiety feeling than before, making it more likely to reoccur.
In training, I never allow a horse to get worked up this way. Rather than flooding, I prefer progresive desensitization. Leaving food is a good idea as well, since the horse gets a reward when their buddy goes away. I've also had luck with cats, dogs and radios to keep a lonely horse company, but it can be hard to get the right companion - it's more a hit or miss kind of thing.
I currently have two rescues, a little red roan who had been badly abused, and an OTTB who came with a tendon injury. Since they were both new, they bonded immediately and hard. In the early months, I didn't worry about it much, since they both had various ailments to recover from.
Once they were healthy, the roan really didn't care where the TB was. But the TB would panic if Red was out of sight.
We worked through progressive desensitization, by leaving the TB in his stall and removing the red horse. For hours a day, I would lead the red horse away, and when the TB showed a little anxiety, I brought him back. When he was calm again, we moved away again. Eventually we got so far that I had to have a helper to monitor the TB to tell me when to come back. And sometimes Red and I would spend quite a long time relaxing by the lake until the TB gave signs that the absence was too long. The key is, that the TB was always the guide for how long we were out of sight. And each time we came back, the TB learned the routine better. We leave, we come back. We leave, we come back. It also helped that my teenage helper just adored him and lavished him with praise and carrots.
We repeated this process several times a week for the first few weeks; then once or twice a week.
During this entire training, the TB got a lot of confidence building exercises as well - I introduced a dozen or so novel (and scary looking objects) each week; as well as working through all the Parelli games and a variety of other groundwork game (Kelly Marks and Michael Peace are good sources too). This kind of practice helps build overall confidence, IMO, and generalizes to all anxiety producing situations.
By the end of four or five months, my TB was fine with Red and I going for a ride for a couple of hours most days. He likes country music by the way.
It is a long process, but it certainly can be done.
I don't know what your situation is, if you have that kind of time to devote, or if you can afford a few months where you don't take the other horse off property while you are training. But I have really had great success with this method, in some of the worst cases, and most recently with this pair. Since I work with troubled horses, and since SA is often exacerbated by poor weaning processes, I get a lot of horses like this.
I really do wish you luck, Kayla. This is a tough problem to deal with, and a difficult one to train away. I wish I knew an easy way around it, but I've never found one.
It is also quite possible that the method you are using will work, and they will not rebond as strongly when your other horse returns. I'll send good thoughts your way.
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 12:55 pm:
From a behavioral pov, this "when the TB showed a little anxiety, I brought him back" would be exactly the opposite of what you want. What you are teaching is, "get stressed and upset, and life will go your way."
You need to bring a horse back when the other horse is calm.
You said it worked for you, but logically, I can't make any sense of it and it isn't systematic desensitization.
That would be, take the horse to just the edge of upset and then bring it back, over and over pushing further and further away.
FWIW, my horse is NOT in a panic. That's what I've worked hard to avoid.
At any rate, I'm comfortable with how I'm doing this. My horses are safe and on a 1-10 stress level, nothing has exceeded a 4. Right now, I can see my mare from my window, and her stress might be a 1 as she's grazing and looking relaxed. At some point, she will go back to pacing and calling but she's not frantic and she's not in a panic.
Will this work? I don't know. I haven't been down this path before. But I do know something about animal behavior and something about behavior modification and everything I'm doing is safe and sensible. I'm not letting them get "worked up"....that was occurring when I was trying to take this gradually.
I am interested in hearing how other people dealt with their own buddy sour problems (successfully), and what rebound may have happened.
I get the sense you don't approve of how I'm going about this.
I've tried using a slower method. It's not that I'm impatient or in a hurry. I have my reasons and don't need to or want to defend the choices I'm making. My animals are safe. Their human handlers are safe. And no one's anxiety is off the wall except maybe mine. ;-)
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 1:17 pm:
Kayla, as I said before, it's not my place to approve or disapprove. I'm just sharing my own experiences. I mean that sincerely, and I truly apologize for anything that I've said that gave you another impression.
We are saying almost the same thing (to the point of upset, or getting a little anxious) about progressive desensitization. We move the horse to the point that the left behind buddy can tolerate; and watch for the first signs of anxiety, and then slowly return. Rather than a reward, the horse learns to tolerate small amounts of discomfort, increasing patience and emotional maturity. It's exercising the emotional part of their brain, increasing emotional muscle and self confidence, and is well documented in animal behavior theory as well as in humans. I agree that this theory is not as commonly known as only rewarding for the behavior you want, as you expressed.
As you, I am quite aware of behavioral theory, having a Master Degree in Behavioral Neuroscience, which takes into account not only stricly behavioral approaches but how the nervous system responds and adapts to stimuli from a morphological point of view.
You have no need to defend your decisions to me. It's not something *I* am trying to win, and I honestly am puzzled and saddened that it's being taken that way. I'm just sharing, and hoping that even if it is not helpful to you, it may be helpful to someone else reading with a similar problem.
I think we can all learn from each other, and I hope you will continue posting how it goes for you. Even an old dog like me can learn new tricks. ;)
Take care.
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 1:48 pm:
Email tone can be very hard to read. Sorry if I misunderstood.
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 4:51 pm:
Kayla, yes, and it can also be very hard to convey tone accurately. I'm still learning, and I hope you (and others) will be patient with me.
I do care, and wish the very very best for you and your horse. It's obvious that you care about her, and are trying to figure out the best way for you and for her through this tough issue. I really do hope you will keep us informed, and that it goes well for you both, whatever you choose to do.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 10:13 pm:
Kayla and Karin - I am reading this with interest, because I have had similar experiences with intensely bonded horses.
The worst was a quarter horse gelding that got so worked up when left behind that he would be covered in sweat when I got back with my mare. We lost him to a broken leg before I was able to get him over this.
Now I have another gelding, and my mare is certainly bonded to him. We have had him for 7 years now. I can ride either horse away from home without a problem, but when I ride the mare away I close the gelding into his smaller corral. He will buck and squeal but can't get up so much speed that I start worrying. Either one of them settles down when the stablemate is far enough away so they can't see them.
The biggest problem is that the neighborhood arena is close enough that the horse at home is aware about the stablemate. They will call occasionally and the one in the arena would probably run straight home if I allowed it. All in all it is manageable.
However - there are times when my mare starts running the fence and calling to the gelding when he is just out of sight behind the barn. She does not always do this, but in all this time she has not figured out that the gelding is not gone - just out of sight. Two winters ago when we had a lot of ice and snow I actually but a temporary fence up to prevent the gelding from getting out of sight because I was worried that the mare might break her leg.
I will continue to follow this thread and wish you the best, Kayla.
Lilo
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Monday, Oct 20, 2008 - 10:45 pm:
Did he break the leg by being upset about the buddy?
I feel funny continuing updates in a thread on ace. But I think we're making good progress.
I reunited them tonight but plan to separate them again (and ace the mare again) tomorrow.
Honestly, it seems like the number of people who have totally resolved this issue are approximately zero. :-(
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 5:43 am:
Kayla,
If a third horse is not practical have you considered other buddies like burros or even a large goat?
DrO
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 7:29 am:
Concerning Ace....If Ace is used in a procedure, or for training...does the horse remember??? Does it help as far as behavior modification once the ace is removed?
I always wondered about that.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 7:40 am:
I was reading a debate about ace used to facilitate behavior modification recently. Some said that they have aced horses when taking them out on a hunter pace for the first time for example. These individuals said that it helped to take the edge off of their horse, which set them up for positive experiences later. I can not speak from experience though, Diane because I have never done it.
I think that the difficulty with desensitizing a horse within this type of situation, is that we are NOT there to show them guidance. Therefore, they are left to only utilize natural instincts, which as we all know, only knows of life with herd. So it goes against their intrinsic drive and most fundamental safety feature-their buddies. And because we have left too, there is no one to provide cues and leadership to diffuse them. So they do what their little horsie brain tells them, "Get their buddy back at any cost."
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 8:16 am:
The only experience I have to draw on is when I worked at the event barn. They had 3 high strung horses on stall rest at the same time due to injuries and we had to hand walk them!!!
With ace they were manageable....without they were quite rowdy. These horses didn't have the best behavior no matter what as far as leading. The ace certainly didn't change that at all. This could be an entirely different behavioral entity though.
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 10:00 am:
Dr O, I live in a homeowner's association on 1/3 acre lots. By association rules and city ordinance, we are permitted 2.5 equines, with the .5 being a foal under 6 months of age. We're not allowed any other livestock. It seems like the absolute worst possible number. I've wondered if I could sneak a mini in.
Gwen, you're so right. It's why the horse with me is okay, but the one alone is sure the universe is ending. :-(
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 10:05 am:
Gwen, ever see a horse on ace? They're not very sedated. I _assume_ memory still works.
I've seen xanax used to help people with phobias.
Thing is, even if it turns out to not work, I'm at least keeping her safe.
I brought the gelding home last night and let him spend the night here. Taking him away again this morning. It's traumatic for all of us.
Meanwhile, the poor third wheel horse isn't very happy when I take his friend away either.
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 12:26 pm:
Kayla,
I haven't used them myself but have heard positive things about stall mirrors for the horse that is left behind. Might be worth a try, especially if the one left behind is not terribly upset, just anxious.
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Member:
gwen
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 3:05 pm:
Yes Kayla, I have seen horses on ace. Not sedated, as in surgery-ready. In any case, I can't speak from experience like I said. I can only take others' word for it in regards to using ace.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 6:02 pm:
Diane E,
In my line of work ( training standardbred racehorses)I get a lot of nutty crazy horses, most of which are that way because they hurt somewhere. Racehorses are a very tough type of horse and many times they do not show lameness problems outright, instead they show up as behavioral problems ( pulling, running off the track, rearing up, falling down). It's their only way to tell you that something is bothering them. Sometimes in order to evaluate them and to get them to relax so I can tell whats really wrong I do use Ace, it saves the horse, me and people I work work from getting hurt. I have used it daily for up to 2 weeks and then gradually weaned the horse off of it. I do not think that the behavior gets modified because of the Ace, but I think the behavior gets modified because I usually can find and treat the problem that was causing the behavior problem in the first place and so the horse does not need the Ace any longer.
Now that I have my tow gate, I haven't had to use anything to get my crazy horses to behave. Its hard to do anything bad when you are towing 5-7 miles a day and going a 4 minute mile ( 15 mph). Plus, since they are no longer in pain, their whole personality changes and they actually become nice horses to be around.
Rachelle
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 7:03 pm:
my little Arab was EXTREMELY herd bound when i got him from the rescue...he was also extremely terrified of people.. like every other horse that has ever met my little pony, he bonded to that little pony like he was a life saver...unfortunately the little pony was also my lesson pony, so when i took the little guy out the arab would go absolutely bonkers....he was also terrified of people so my being around didnt help him any...and putting him in a stall was not a good option, at first because you couldnt get near him to catch him, but also because being in an enclosed area freaked him out even more...
it didnt take very long for me to get him over the people fear - at least in the sense that he very quickly started to look to me for comfort (about 2-3 weeks)...from there i just built on that comfort zone so that even in a relaxed state when the pony was nearby he'd rather be with me then anyone else... as i continued the work to get him comfortable with me - to that point where he wanted to be with me more than anything else, he got more comfortable in his own skin, and it wasnt more than a few months that he couldnt care less if the pony left...he IS still happy to see the pony when he gets back, and he'll follow the pony anywhere, but when the pony leaves, either just out of sight to get groomed, or down the road for a ride or in the trailer for something, he pretty much just hangs out, watching till the pony is out of sight, then goes to eat...
i should mention that thru the whole "training" process the pony couldnt care less about being separated from the arab.. funnily enough, nowadays, when i take the arab away from the pony its the pony who gets the "most" upset (if you count a neigh or two as being upset)...
i personally dont see any problem with the ace to help you get thru this, but i would still be looking at some behavior management training as well...it CAN be "cured"...
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 7:24 pm:
Gwen, I hope I didn't sound like I was trying to be smarter-than-thou...I just meant that when mine are aced, they don't act or look sedated. It just takes the edge off. I assume it's dosage dependent but ace always looked like a minor anti-anxiety drug rather than a heavy-duty sedative.
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 7:26 pm:
Melissa, the problem is when I can't stay with the one left behind....for example, if I want to go out and ride. They don't have anyone or anything to look towards.
As of this evening, I'm losing access to the place where I've been keeping my gelding. So, two of my 3 have to be at home and my only choice is over what combo of two is at my house and maybe 2 hours of separate turnout/day.
But maybe we've broken enough of the cycle.
Would horses bond with a rabbit living in a rabbit hutch near their paddock? :-)
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Member:
scooter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 7:40 pm:
My horses have bonded with our dogs! They don't get upset if they leave tho!
I hope it works out for you Kayla, they all have different degrees of "paranoia's" and hopefully your horse will get over it, I know it is a frustrating thing.
Could you just ace the horse before you ride the other? Tho I don't know if that would work either, as we know any horse can go through ace if they want to. Do you have a safe paddock area? That really did "cure" my arab gelding. (as much as he was going to be cured anyway)
Rachel your explanation makes a lot of sense...thanks
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Member:
amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 8:00 pm:
Kayla, i didnt stay with the arab either when the pony left.. i was usually teaching the lessons, so i left the arab on his own to do what he did..he'd work himself into a big lather, and being an Arab, he didnt exactly tire himself out...never thought of using Ace...when i had time i would take the arab out and work with him, and that's how he got over it.. i never did do any "desensitizing"...i got the arab comfortable with himself and his place in the world, and the herd bound took care of itself...to me the herd bound problem is a kind of confidence issue anyways, so once he got confident in his own skin, he didnt care if he was left alone..
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 8:57 pm:
Melissa, you're so right. My arab is totally lacking in confidence and that cuts to a huge piece of the problem.
Funny enough, when i went out to feed, she got upset again (probably because I brought bf-horse back at this time last night) but by the time I brought bf-horse home, she was grazing on her dinner.
We work on her confidence regularly...but anytime I'm not continuously working with her, she regresses fast.
Since I can't access the spare place anymore, I'm hoping we've at least broken the cycle.
For the person who mentioned a stall mirror, where would you get such a thing?
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Member:
karind10
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 9:08 pm:
Kayla, you can get them from silktree.com, but anyone that supplies arena-safe, shatterproof mirrors should have them also.
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Member:
lilo
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 21, 2008 - 9:34 pm:
Kayla - just to respond to your question. The gelding who broke his leg was kicked by my mare - we think. It happened during the night, so we are not sure what happened. It was very sad - he was only 11 years old.
Lilo
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 7:24 am:
Kayla,
I just thought of something. Can you get a variance where you live for your .5 mini, so all of them can stay at your house. Even if only a temporary variance, maybe if your mare bonded to the mini, she would not be as nervous when you and your gelding are out riding.
Another thing I might try is putting her on a daily calming medicine like Calm and Cool or an Herbal product like Wendalls Calmer or Moody Mare.
Another thing I would try is loungeing/ exercising her before you do anything with the gelding, mares are very funny, she might just want a bit of attention. Sometimes a change in routine is the best medicine and the exercise might take the edge off of her.
Rachelle
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Member:
kaylab
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Posted on Wednesday, Oct 22, 2008 - 10:26 am:
If I lunge her before working the gelding, the gelding would get all upset. but he does cope a bit better than the mare. I'd guess when I'd want to ride him, it would take him twice as long to calm down.
A variance won't be possible. It's a homeowner's association. Sadly, people used to be able to get away with more. Then one person went on a rampage to try to change the CC&Rs, and since then, they are enforcing every tiny "issue." The only way I could have a mini would be if I didn't get caught.
I have started her on some daily herby thing for now.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 7:48 am:
Save your money Kayla, the herbal products are poorly researched, don't have any lasting effect in my experience with dozens of attempts, and I expect your horse to adapt in time anyway.
DrO
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Member:
muffi
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Posted on Thursday, Oct 23, 2008 - 12:37 pm:
I agree with Dr O on the Save your money Kayla.
my Arab Gelding (is it an arab thing?) gets frantic when I take my QH/TWH out alone. he works the side of the arena about 1 foot down (Pacing back and forth at a trot) (sand over dirt) and is all lathered up when i get home. I have been working for a year now on the JL technique - and he still paces flipping his head at each 20 foot side. not a pretty site. my husband tries to go out and see him to calm him down but he is not close to him so to no avail. And this is only when he is left behind. I tried Tryptophane (powder and also one dose oral syringe) and Serene Calm on him - neither did much to calm him down.
but if I ride him - he is all ok - nervous till we get out of site. but calm. But... i usually meet up with other riders with in 1 mile of the property so he immediatly calms once he sees his riding fiends then. When I take him down property alone to the arena we have - out of site of each other he is agitated but pays attention to me.
SO Kayla - I may just try that ACE thing.
I assume it's a controlled substance? is it intra muscular? or Blood? I don't do Blood shots but no problem with intra muscluar.
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