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Discussion on Ace for trailer loading
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Member:
nonie
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 7:52 am:
Hi Dr. O.
I have a young filly, coming 6, Arab mostly with a little Saddlebred. I plan to use her for endurance and in all her training so far she has been a perfect star. With one exception.
Four years ago, when she was two, she was caught underneath the butt bar of my trailer and flipped out. She ended up breaking the butt bar and falling backwards down the ramp. She was not seriously hurt, physically. It was not the first time she had trailered. It took us seven hours and a dose of Ace to finally get her on, following which she trailered home with us calmly (a four hour drive), and unloaded fine.
Since then I have spent four years, thousands of dollars, with five trainers and we are no farther along. We take two steps forward and two back, then two forward and three back. We have used NH/John Lyons methods and these work--until the next time. We have used clicker training, running her in circles a la Clinton Anderson, long patient waiting, War Bridles (with a very experienced and gentle man trained by Buck Brannaman, don't get me wrong).
Here's the situation: we can get her to load, more effectively by the NH methods. She kind of freezes and gets that look on her face, but she goes in. She hauls very well, always unloads gracefully. But the next time we put her on, we are in for a bigger fight, and so on.
The trailer has become a source of stress for her. I've backed up and for the last year have been taking things very easy, taking out the center divider to give her lots of room, just practiced walking on calmly, staying with her, backing her out. We are okay with that. But go to put the butt bar up and she is OUTTA THERE--or, if she feels intimidated enough by the rope or the flag or the stick behind her, she stays in, rigid, her eyes frozen, and the next time you have a bigger fight on your hand.
Obviously I am in this for the long run and willing to do what it takes. But this year, I am considering using ACE orally just to take the edge off for the first several sessions of trying to get the butt bar up. I was thinking I would start with 2cc's and gradually decrease the dosage as she became able to manage her fear better.
Does this sound like a workable plan? I am a patient girl, but I'm aging rapidly. LOL.
Thanks.
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 9:02 am:
Zoe,
Dr. O will surely have the right answer but in my experience I have not found Ace to be of any help in the loading of a horse that is afraid of or truly does not want to get onto a trailer.
I have also heard some reports of Ace administration causing an opposite panic and agitation effect when used in some such instances.
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Member:
nonie
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 10:10 am:
Thanks, Vicki.
She does respond pretty well to Ace; in fact that was how we got her back on the trailer the initial time, when she got caught. It's just that since then she has had such a long history of being intentionally agitated around the trailer in the name of training that I think she just has this automatic reaction when I bring her near it--oh, no, I'm gonna get chased/flagged/tapped by that stupid stick again. In retrospect, I will never use any "work-em-hard" methods on an Arab again, certainly not a young Arab mare.
Basically I am just looking for some way to dampen that initial reaction on her part so we can get some safe, proper training done on a consistent basis. But I have heard that behavior learned under the influence of drugs is not retained when the drugs are not used, so that is another of my concerns.
Boy they sure teach us a lot, don't they? 
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 12:05 pm:
Zoe,
Does she need a butt bar? or is it anything you put up behind her that freaks her out.
Have you tried putting her on, and putting the ramp up without latching the butt bar and then putting the butt bar up after she's already loaded.
Also, Could you use a soft cotton rope in place of the butt bar? That's what I use on my trailer. I took a soft cotton lead rope and put it across the stall slot.
Rachelle
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Member:
nonie
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 12:22 pm:
Thanks, Rachelle.
Yes, she needs a butt bar, both for the integrity of the trailer and her own safety, when the ramp is lowered for unloading. She unloads fine, but the chance of her running backwards when the ramp is lowered is more than I want to take.
Yes, we have done the "ramp up, then put up the btt bar" routine, but it makes me very nervous, again because of the chance she might run back as the ramp was halfway up and hurt herself and whoever was lifting the ramp.
I have actually had the most success with using an alternative to the butt bar--not a soft cotton rope, but a special "butt strap' I was able to order from Sunset trailer. I had clips put on my trailer in front of the butt bar hardware, and I clip the strap on so that she feels it first when she backs up, and not the bar. But she is still very wary about ANYTHING going up behind her. And still very claustrophobic in the trailer.
My main goal now is to get rid of her anxiety associated with the trailer, as the alternative just seems to result in her getting worse and worse. I want to turn the big boat around in the water, so to speak.
Zoe
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Member:
stek
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 2:09 pm:
Zoe, have you tried her in a different type of trailer, like an open stock trailer? With all the time and money you have put into it thus far I would consider trading in for a different type of trailer if only to make my life easier.
I enthusiastically second the ineffectiveness of 'work-em-hard' methods, on arabs most especially. I know my own arab would go till he dies if the issue is fear.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 4:17 pm:
Zoe,
I have a very nervous, high strung racemare that goes nowhere without either a full cup race hood or a blind bridle. She also wears earplugs. This includes loading on and off the trailer and most times she rides with all of her headgear on and wears it in the ship in barn and then in the paddock when she goes to race. With this gear she is perfectly fine, without it she's a numbskull to the point she will hurt herself, just by being stupid.
Perhaps, if you rig your mare with something like this she will not be able to hear or see whats going on behind her, might not get as anxious and won't flip out with the butt bar when you put it in place.
Just curious what type of trailer do you have?
Does she act like she is going to bolt out of the trailer when you DrOp the ramp. I teach my horses to stand in there until I ask them to back out. I do not even have to hold their heads and they back out by themselves and I get the lead rope as they come off the ramp.
I did have a problem with my colt in the beginning because he kept backing off into the butt rope, but I wouldn't let him off and pushed him back in with a broom ( did not hit him) until he stood still and in the proper position for me to unfasten the butt rope.
From what you post though it does not sound like your mare really does anything wrong other than she doesn't like the butt bar.
Here's another thing you might try. A blanket clamp on her bottom lip, it will give her something else to think about, it acts like a one man twitch and she'll be thinking about that rather than the butt bar. I know this sounds weird, but if you ever watched the TV show House, there was one episode where the pain in his leg was so bad, he took a hammer and broke his hand so he wouldn't focus on the pain in his leg. I am not advocating for pain, just something to make her less anxious and to get her mind off the butt bar.
Rachelle
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 5:03 pm:
Zoe,
I think I my have misread your post. When, I went back and reread it. It is the actual loading that is the problem. Once you get her on she's fine and she unloads fine, but she gets anxious with the butt bar. Do I have it now?
Ok, here is my final suggestion and I have used this method with a variety of very hard to load horses including one that would go halfway up the ramp and bolt backwards ripping the leadshank out of the loaders hands.
If your mare does not ground drive, you need to teach her. You can use a saddle or a harness, or even a surcingle and a blind bridle. You need three lounge lines 2 to use as the driving lines and 1 to lead her with.
You need to treat this as a training session and have about 3 hours to deal with and not be in a rush to go anywhere. A lot of the work to teach her is in having her be directed by the person that's driving her not the person leading her, she needs to follow the drivers cues. She also needs to get used to the driving lines on her butt. Once she is comfortable driving, you can take her to the trailer and slowly ask her to move forward. You need to keep her straight in the driving lines, so the only place she can go is forward. If she tries to go to one side or the other use the driving lines to straigthen her out. The person leading her on the trailer is only there to control her if she decides to flip out, rear up, run backwards etc. and it is also the reason you need a lounge line. I usually get one fight and once they realize what has worked before is not going to work and the easiest thing they can do is get on the trailer that's what they do.
Now here is the hardest part, after you get her loaded do not put the butt bar up. Unload her and do it again, until she loads like she is supposed to and stands there quietly. Then put the butt bar up. If you want to take her for a ride fine.
This usually takes me three hours from the time I teach the horse to drive until the time the horse has loaded and unloaded at least 3-5 times.
A day or so later, I do it again 2-4 times ( the time frame gets much shorter because the horse already knows how to drive and now understands the loading process from a different perspective).
After about a week of every other day loading at least once or twice each session. I do not believe your horse will have a loading problem and the butt bar problem will be a thing of the past because she will be getting desensitized from the driving lines.
You also need to have someone very capable of handling and controlling the horse from the front so in case she rears, she can be brought back down to earth with a swift yank on the lounge line ( and yes, the leader has to have a lounge line with a chain and the chain has to be over the mare's nose).
The driver needs a whip, not to hit or beat but to encourage forward motion. Once the momentum starts the cue can be released.
I hope at least one of my suggestions helps.
Good luck
Rachelle
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Member:
nonie
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 7:27 pm:
Thanks, Rachelle. That is really good advice about the ground driving. Actually, Pokey ground drives really well. We started her in double longe lines when she was a two year old and she took to it like a duck to water. We can drive her into the trailer easily, by rope or flag or lines with a longe whip. The problem is, after the first initial fight in whatever method we have moved on to, she will go in, at first obediently but with resentment, the next time with more of a fight again, and subsequently only after MORE fights, when she is exhausted and shaky and in a lather.
I have learned much more than I ever wanted to know about the Arab temperament, in particular that of a young, very intelligent Arab mare. Last year I took her to a big endurance ride--100+ riders and their rigs, cattle, ATV's, the whole shebang--to get her used to the atmosphere. She was a star. Everyone complimented me on her sensible attitude and her ability to handle all the strange and noisy stimuli. But to get there we had had a nightmare loading her. So the woman who ran the ride, a Pan Am gold medalist, a lovely person and an excellent horsewoman who used to haul horses for a living, offered to help me load her. It took her an hour and a half, and at one point she told me that Pokey might be the first horse who outwitted her. She kept telling me, "She's SO smart." This woman was wonderful, kind but insistent, she never lost her cool, and her timing was exquisite. And it was an ordeal, for all of us.
So you see what I am up against. At this point, my main focus is to somehow remove or overlay the anxiety and fear that Pokey is connecting with the trailer in her mind, so we can go forward in a different direction. That's why I asked about the ACE.
Shannon, we have shipped her in a stock trailer. She went in fine the first time, in three seconds. We were taking her to a colt-breaking clinic where my NH trainer, a man I have tremendous respect for and have worked with for three years, worked to get her under saddle. Again, she was a complete gem and got lots of compliments. But when we went to load her on the big stock trailer to go home--after three solid days of intensive work and almost complete compliance--we were in for an EXPLOSION again, lots of fight, and a shaky, dripping horse that finally gave in and loaded.
In my next life, no kids, no pets.
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Member:
harDrOck
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Posted on Friday, Apr 24, 2009 - 9:44 pm:
Hi Zoe, I read your post, "trailer loading" you have tried some NH people now I'm going to suggest trying "Pat Parelli" he really is a great teacher. I have a rescue horse I adopted 4 yrs ago he had been locked in a stall for at least a yr and starved. When I decided to bring him home I thought it was going to be tough getting him in the trailer, well to my surprise he walked right in. I took off his rope halter left him loose & shut the door. Since then I have had to help him to build his confidence and to trust me! This is a very big issue, I have study Parelli for almost 8 years and I'm glad I have. I don't disrespect my horses or drug them into compliance. Please check this out. Parreli.com they will send you a free dvd. They care about the horse nad I'm sure you do too and by the way I'm haven't sent thousands of $$.
Best wishes,
Cathy
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 25, 2009 - 12:05 am:
Hi Zoe,
Wow. Well, in your shoes I'd put her in a small paddock with the trailer built into it (the trailer must be hitched for safety). I'd tie her water bucket in the back end of the trailer, and put her feed there as well. Every day, I'd move them back about 6 inches towards the front (hitch end). I'd forget about the butt bar until she was well habituated to jumping all the way into the trailer to feed.
I would also take a ride in the back of my trailer to find out if there's something she knows that you don't about riding back there. It can't hurt-- I've been amazed riding in my own trailers how loud they are. Eventually, you might consider putting cotton balls in her ears (and a fly bonnet over) to make the ride more pleasant. But first she has to change her mind about the trailer.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 25, 2009 - 9:39 am:
Yes Zoe it sounds workable. If it gives you that edge to get started and then can be weaned away that is great.
DrO
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Member:
nonie
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 26, 2009 - 9:04 am:
Thanks, Dr. O, and all the others--I really appreciate the input. 
Dr. O, could I ask you one more thing?--What's your feeling about information/training being retained while they are "under the influence"? I supposed I will find this out on my own, but I'm curious, as I've heard reports that the training does not "take" if the horse is drugged. Hoping that by gradually reducing the dose I may be able to circumvent this.
Cathy, I have the Parelli tape on loading and think it is one of the best. I did have a fair amount of success with it teaching my filly to load. But again, the next time we tried it was MORE difficult rather than easier. Really, this filly breaks the mold. 
Elk, I would love to try the trailer-in-the-paddock route; I think that might really help, but probably not with the butt bar issue. As it is, I board her at a facility where that option isn't possibly, unfortunately.
I have a Brenderup trailer, and yes, I have ridden in it. Other horses ship fine in it; in fact Pokey herself ships fine in it, once we get her on it. She is relaxed and eating whenever we stop to check her (which I do frequently). I'm pretty sure I've narrowed down the problem to the claustrophobia and panic she feels about being trapped--by the butt bar--inside when she is first loaded. Due to the initial trauma, but now I am convinced due even more to the efforts we have made over the past four years to "get her over it." As I said earlier, I have learned a whole lot about Arabs and sometimes I'm convinced they're a whole different species! (I hasten to add, one that I totally LOVE--aside from her little trailer issue, she is a dream come true.)
Many thanks again to all for your help.
Zoe
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 26, 2009 - 10:36 am:
Hi Zoe,
In my limited experience, horses that respond well to ACE also learn well "under the influence," provided they aren't too gorked to notice anything.
Ok, I have one more idea. Maybe rather than thinking about the "claustrophobia and panic she feels about being trapped--by the butt bar" you could think about it as a strongly conditioned negative response to a solid object restraining her from behind, and approach the problem that way. Does your boarding facility have stocks? Does she tolerate them? Would they allow you to feed her in them? If not, you might find a used harness and rig a bar for the back that imitated the butt bar. Harness her, tie her, feed her, DrOp the bar. Confine her in as small a space as you can to do so.
It sounds as though she's afraid of the bar and anticipates it on loading. So you have two problems you can separate and work on. Deal with the bar, deal with the anticipation.
The second thing, and this might take a long time, is to load and unload her many times in a row without DrOpping the butt bar. Get her on, give her a cookie, count to ten, take her off. Rinse/repeat. Maybe do this for days without DrOpping the bar.
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Member:
rtrotter
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 26, 2009 - 11:11 am:
Zoe,
Somehow, I knew you had a Brenderup trailer. I have one too. When I saw the part of your post about the stability issue and needing to have the butt bar in place.
I have the horseliner 2 horse model and both my butt bars broke the second time I used the trailer. That's when I went to the soft cotton rope.
The buttbars sit higher and closer to the horse, whereas my rope is lower and looser. I have not had a problem at all with the stability of the trailer and because the partition is able to move when the horses shift their weight, they seem to ride better.
If you want something a little sturdier, get a piece of chain and wrap it with a bandage and vet wrap and make that your butt bar.
I also agree with elk as far as loading and unloading her a number of times a day. This would also be a way of determining whether its the trailer loading itself or its the ride in the trailer and the noise that's the problem.
If she gets on and off the trailer several times in a row on the same day and does not give you a problem, then something is happening to her in the trailer that is making her reluctant to get back on the second time after her event.
She may also be reading your mind ( horses are very good at that) if she feels you are anticipating a fight thats what she is going to give you.
Personally I vote for the soundproof earplugs and a hood or bridle and a soft rope butt bar.
Rachelle
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 26, 2009 - 5:46 pm:
Yes, horses can learn when aced Zoe.
DrO
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Member:
vickiann
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 26, 2009 - 6:10 pm:
I don't know whether it would work for your situation or not but I found a slightly flexible rubber-like rope that has eye snaps on both ends that is perfect in the back of my trailer. I think that I got it out of the Farnam catalog and it works great. There were a couple of different sizes and one of them was perfect.
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Member:
erika
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Posted on Wednesday, Apr 29, 2009 - 2:05 pm:
Zoe, I just saw this post--been out of town for a bit. My mare, Cleo, did a similar thing when she was young. She slipped under the bar of the escape door. We both panicked when she got stuck momentarily, but she seemed to have come out of it with nothing more than a little nervousness about boarding the trailer. Fortunately she's a bit more stoic than the typical Arab, so we've been able to work through it.
I think you got a lot of good suggestions above. That combined with the touch of ace might do the trick. BTW, there was a blurb in the current Equus mag discussing the very long memories of horses that might interest you in relation to your problem. I have a hunch that you will probably be dealing with this for a long time, even as her nervousness diminishes.
Good luck, with persistence you'll make headway to be sure.
Erika
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