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  Discussion on Bute's effect on humans
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Member:
Kari

Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 6:35 pm:

Dr. O,

I saw on the internet that a woman in Virginia has been arrested and charged with Attp. to Commit Murder for putting bute in another woman's riding helmet. The woman did suffer some ill effects but apparently is recovering.
I checked the articles but could not find any caviets as to the handling of bute. Just how toxic would it be to humans if orally consummed or absorbed through the skin?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 9:05 am:

It's the Internet ST and so must be taken with a large grain of salt. Though someone may have stupid enough to try this, the story fails in that there would be no ill effects from coming in contact with the bute.
DrO
Member:
Kari

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 7:09 pm:

Dr. O,

I am well aware of the low credibility of the internet. My question was how toxic is bute if it is orally consummed or absorbed by a human.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 7:35 pm:

I know of a couple of cowboys that claimed to have taken bute for their aches and pains...and they're still around, if that helps any...it is heresay...
Member:
Vickiann

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 7:54 pm:

Prior to the internet I read in at least one horse magazine that care should be taken not to absorb bute through human skin. Maybe this is all hogwash, and I also know individuals who have taken bute as a pian reliever, and they are "still around." I also know my Mother, after being in a car accident resulting in a broken sternum, was given a shot of butezoliden (spelling? human bute treatment), after which she went into extreme allergic reactions to numerous foods that previously had caused no harm. The ill effects lasted several years. My husband at the timne -- a pharmacist -- was astounded that she had been given an injection of bute. Why take risks? Put on plastic gloves when you handle this stuff - - - that is the suggestion I have seen with regard to handling bute. I believe in erring on the safe side . . .
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 9:49 pm:

I'm so sorry about your mother Vicki, I wish I could delete my post...
Member:
Kari

Posted on Monday, May 30, 2005 - 10:14 pm:

To Aileen and Vicky,

Several years ago I also took Bute for a shoulder injury on the advise of an old horseman. Didn't do anything to me either.
Perhaps Dr. O misunderstood my request however now that bute can be obtained in pill, granules, and paste it is readily accessible to young children. I am currently using the paste and it would take only seconds for a young child to take the full 30 grams.
I've obtained it from numerous vets simply by asking and paying for it. No vet has ever warned me about its toxic danger. If it can be toxic for a 1000 lb. horse what would it do to a 60 lb. child.
Just about everyone I know keeps bute in their "first aid for horses kit" and it is used for a variety of treatments.
Just thought the question deserved an answer.
Member:
Christos

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 7:02 am:

ST, I can not count how many times I have mixed bute powder into grain with my hands. Same goes for many many horsepeople around the globe.
I think if there was an effect on humans through skin we'd know it by now, no?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 8:15 am:

You are right ST I concentrated on the story and missed the specific request for an oral toxicity dose, my apologies.

This is not a simple question. Because we cannot do LD-50 studies on humans it is not known what the toxic oral dose is in humans. We do know that bute is particularly hard on the gi system, liver, and kidneys of humans which explains its rare use in them. There is a report of a human trying to kill themselves, unsucessfully , with it but I cannot find a documented amount taken. Published dosage rates in humans for oral dosage forms (capsules, tablets, and buffered tablets) is: For severe arthritis in Adults and teenagers over 15 years of age : initially 100 milligrams (mg) three or four times a day. A higher dose of 200 mg three times a day may be needed in sever cases. However some humans have trouble even at these doses.

There should be no excuse to allow your young child to get hold of a tube of bute paste and no one should be taking their horse medications as a substitute for human medications. If I had bute on my hands, I would wash them before handing the child. By handling these medications safely and as prescribed the oral question, besides not having a clear answer, becomes moot.
DrO
Member:
Kari

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 10:21 pm:

Christos,

Dr. O's new post probably answers your observations however, miners spent decades in the mines before anyone figured out black lung disease. The same holds true for asbestos insulation and lead in house paint.

Not to be an alarmist but merely because we are just beginning to link up the ill effects of some chemicals requires deligence in the safe handling of them. As I previously stated anything that can do damage to the liver or kidney of a horse is possible of doing the same to us. After all, we also have livers and kidneys.

You might think I'm paranoid but you hearing from a l and l/2 pack a day smoker and a l.75 liter of scotch a week plus any opportunity to have a very dry vodka martini. I realize their danger but have elected to risk the ill effect (particulary the martini!).
Member:
Kari

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 10:24 pm:

Thanks Dr. O for the amended reply. Now if you can just explain why they don't add a pleasant taste to Bute. I have a yearling filly that used to love me before Bute.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:19 pm:

S.T.,

Have you tried crushing the tabs and mixing the powder with baby food carrots or apple sauce and administering the mixture as a paste with a cut-off syringe? Presently, I am mixing an apple-flavored bute powder into complete pellets for two of the horses boarded here at the ranch. Neither horse seems to be averse to eating the grain, and when I mix it up, I can definitely detect an almost sickeningly sweet apple odor. (I haven't tasted it though.)
Member:
Shirl

Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:33 pm:

Hi All,
I have used powdered, apple flavored Bute when I had Sierra, but I also used the apple flavored paste. Even apple flavored paste tastes pretty nasty (I touched a tiny bit to my tongue-ICK) Very bitter- she didn't like either, but the paste was easier to get in her, though more expensive. Her days were numbered, so I didn't care.
Shirl
Member:
Kari

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 1, 2005 - 12:03 am:

Shirley & Holly,

In my area, the vets only carry the original bute and I have gone the apple sauce and karo syrup route on older horses that are adamantly opposed to Bute.

When it comes to my yearlings I prefer to spend more time with them so that they learn to accept some things that they don't enjoy. Later they accept being tied or given shots even if they really don't enjoy it. Injuries occur and if it can be used as a positive learning experience the extra time is worth it. Since accepting bute is not really a painful experience, the colts learn to accept it which later conditions them to other non-painful experiences.

Thanks for the advise, Dutchess would appreciate it.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 1, 2005 - 9:42 am:

I have not owned a horse yet that refused my bute recipe.

First you take the bute(1 or 2 grams) and dissolve it in about a half a cup of boiling water. Once it is all dissolved, mix it in with some cinnamon flavored apple sauce from the grocery store. I have had horses eat this "as is" but you can also use it as a drench or top dress food. Hope this helps.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 1, 2005 - 10:37 am:

I wonder if the heat has any adverse effect on the Bute's action???
Member:
Srobert

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 1, 2005 - 7:18 pm:

Here's another method that works for me. I stick the prescribed number of bute tablets in a half cup or so of applesauce overnight. By morning they are soft and you can mix them into the applesauce with a spoon. Add some sugar (I am generous at first) spoon it into a dosing syringe and dose just like worming paste. We had to treat our young gelding morning and night for several weeks and he began to look forward to his twice daily "treats!" He would actually lunge FOR the syringe (which now makes worming a LOT easier!)
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 2, 2005 - 6:55 am:

I too worry about the heat and prefer to leave them in a bit of water overnight to soften them then pick them up in whatever flavoring you want to use.
DrO
Member:
Christos

Posted on Thursday, Jun 2, 2005 - 8:18 am:

I saw DrO's comment, ST, and you are right, being careful is not paranoid. Gloves it is.
Member:
Bobs

Posted on Monday, Jun 27, 2005 - 12:30 pm:

Dear Dr. O:
If we had an enteric coated powder, would it work in horses. The enteric coating that I have is undissolvable in acids but breaks apart at ph 7.8. The subject comes up with phenylbutasone and a particular horse. Another way to ask is ; do horses have an intestinal ph of greater than 7.8?
bob
Member:
Chrism

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 28, 2005 - 1:03 pm:

I use an apple or thick carrot for giving my horses bute. I break the bute in smaller pieces. Then I cut the apple into quarters or smaller and push the bute pieces in deeply and feed the horse. For a carrot, I cut slots for the bute pieces.

This method works for many horses. My older mare will even eat her food if we powder the bute and put it on top. But the chunks in apple slices wastes less.

Cheers.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jun 30, 2005 - 10:46 am:

Sorry for the delay here Bob but I was unable to quickly locate a source for this information and still don't have a definitive answer. I did find a study for the jejunum but not the duodenum. I think the information is out there but I have limited access to older EVJ's and when I get back in the university next year I might be able to research this further. In an experiment where normal (actually a sham preparation where surgery is done but the bowel not obstructed) jejunum is compared with experimental obstruction the ph of the normal ranged between 7.40 to 7.51. The time of observation limited and the number of subjects small, and one has to question the effect of the sham surgery, but it does not support the idea this might work. However the definitive way to test this is pretty simple, make it up and take blood samples for phenylbute analysis over the next 24 hours and compare it with orally administered bute paste for which there already is data.
DrO
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