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  Discussion on DMSO and surpass
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New Member:
nito

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 27, 2010 - 9:42 pm:

My barrel horse has had some issues the last 2 years due to a bad farrier causing long to low heel and I am at my wits end. He only shows a slight decrease in motion/ flexibility when he is flexed by the vet in both the hock and stifle. I do inject him every 11 weeks between april and october when I am competing very heavily. X rays were taken a year ago and there were no degenerative changes in his stifle or hocks except for a slight amount in his left hock. Could it be a front end issue if it keeps recurring (like he is compensating in his hind end to stay off his front end)?

I just dont understand why there is fluid around one stifle and he flexed sore in the hocks when there is no arthritis/ degenerative change.. The only way he stays on top of his game is when he is injected regularly. He is injected with depo meDrO.

I started out in the spring injecting his lower hocks... then a few weeks later I had to do his right stifle because he seemed off when I ran him... thats when the fluid was found on it. So that one stifle was injected... Then 11 weeks after his hocks were done he was not performing to what level he should be and I went in to have his upper and lower hocks done... a few weeks later I had to do both stifles because even though his hocks were just done he started to seem off again.. At this time he was tracking fine in his hocks since they were just done... Finally it was 11ish weeks later and by this time it was the end of my show season. He had decreased in performance like he had all summer when the injections started wearing off. I was giving 1 gram of bute and surpassing both his hocks and stifles at this point. I also used it occasionally through out the year to when he would run two runs in one day. I plan on seeing a vet again this spring to flex his front end but what is your opinion on this strange situation? Do injections help inflammation in surrounding soft tissues of the joint for a while as well?

My other question is if I use surpass on his hocks and stifles then wash it off will it come off good enough with soap and water to be able to safely apply the DMSO? Also if some surpass were to still be on the area that I was going to apply the DMSO what issues could arise?

Thanks,
Jamie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 8:05 am:

Hello jamie,
If the lameness appears in the rear and responds to treatment in the rear, even if temporarily, it seems that the issues in the rear leg are most likely. You should not confuse a hock flexion test with the diagnosis of hock arthritis: the test is not specific for this condition and you should not confuse clean radiographs with ruling out arthritis: early in the disease you can have joint pain but not have remarkable radiographic changes. You can study about these subjects at:
1) Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Localizing Lameness in the Horse
2) Diseases of Horses » Lameness » The Interpretation of Radiographs

If you feel painting the leg with an antiinflammatory is benefitting your horse I would choose one or the other and not use both. I really cannot speak to the safety of using one product on top of the other whether washed or not.

Lastly I would like to address your frequent use of methylprednisolone acetate (DepoMeDrOl) to keep your horse going. Though controversial and probably dose dependent this may be shortening the overall soundness time your horse has. Review "The Long Term Management" topic in the Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Joint, Bone, Ligament Diseases » Arthritis and DJD: An Overview for a different point of view.
DrO
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 9:54 am:

Jamie,

These are my thoughts. I am not a vet, But I have been around horses, especially Standardbred racehorses for 35+ years.

What I think you have going on is what we in the standardbred business call the cycle ( I am not a supporter of this). Inject one set of joints, horse goes off somewhere else, inject that somewhere else and a another problem pops up and then we go back and have to inject the first problem again. What is happening here is that we are putting out fires without getting to the root cause of the problem, which in my opinion is most likely his feet. Solve the foot problem and a lot of your other problems will most likely go away or at least be reduced.

The Depo MeDrOl only takes care of the problem temporarily because it relieves the pain and inflammation. It does not fix the problem(s) and may exascerbate it/them as Dr. O says. I would rather see you use Hylauronic Acid than constant injections of steroids, but first fix the primary cause.

Also, if you are competing and there is drug testing, the Surpass may show as a positive drug test plus it is very expensive to use on an ongoing basis.

Just my thoughts.

Rachelle
Member:
nito

Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 1:16 pm:

Thank you both for your replies. In barrel racing they do not test at rodeos or barrel racing association shows but only at breed shows.

Rtrotter your explanation is how I feel. The injections are only temporarily relief and the main cause of his pain has not yet been localized. SO back to the vet I go for more diagnosis. Also do you mean oral hylauronic or iv like legend?

Dr O. thank you for the recommendations for the articles, I will read them promptly.

As far as DMSO I read the article mentioning how to mix and use but my question was... If I have a 99% pure dmso solution and I want to mix it with a liniment then apply it do I still mix the DMSO with one part water one part dmso then with that mixture mix one part liniment with it...or do I just use the 99% dmso with one of it to one part liniment? Lastly does the water I mix with it have to be distilled?
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 6:53 pm:

Can't answer the DMSO part, I rarely ever use the stuff. I rarely ever paint or blister anymore either. I have found that by keeping my horses feet straightened out, a lot of the problems I used to have I don't have any more.

As far as The HA goes, if you were injecting that at least you would be giving your horse a chance to heal himself, if it is an arthritic related problem. However, many vets have gotten into the habit of injecting other things (steroids and antibiotics) when they do HA injections mainly because people are too impatient to let the HA work on its own( requires a little more time off than trainers are willing to give. The steroids prevents the normal inflammation that comes with straight HA injections and the antibiotics attempt to cut down on joint infections caused by the injection itself.

The intramuscular( Adequan) or IV ( Legends) injections might be a better choice because more areas can be addressed at the same time, but I have found that these are expensive and do not seem to last as long as they should.

I personally have had very good luck with a product called OCD pellets( joint supplement, contains oral HA) and my horses are started on them as very young horses. I have also had some of my older horses on it with similar positive results.

Can you post some pictures of your horses feet? I'd be curious to see what they look like now. Some of us here on HA are quite good at figuring out foot problems and Dr. O's articles are a must read.

Rachelle
Member:
nito

Posted on Thursday, Jan 28, 2010 - 9:49 pm:

Hello-

I guess I should have added that the injection cocktail also involved Hyvisc with the depo.

I do I.M. N-acetyl-D-glucosamine 10cc once a week.

I can post current photos of his feet but they are now balanced and finally fixed over that last year and a half. The farrier that shod him incorrectly I got rid of in september of 2008. I had him doing my horses feet for 6 years then in 2008 he was leaving my horse uneven and by the time early fall came around he was leaving so much toe on and no heel. My horse at this time developed wind puffs in his hind legs.. I figure from the strain of the incorrect angles of his hooves.

The farrier now that I’ve been working with has got his feet pretty much corrected and balanced. I took him to a well known master farrier that is also a vet to have him asses my horses shoe job and take radiographs of his front coffin bones... everything looked good. I realized after that I should have had radiographs done on his hind as well....

I just havent seen an improvement in his issues since I got a different and good farrier and his feet balanced. It is just the simple horror of what a bad farrier can do to your horse. Also I want to add my horse is 12 this year.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 6:42 am:

Jamie, do not mix DMSO with linaments and then paint them on your horse, this has a high potential of burning the leg.

As to the water you use to dilute your DMSO distilled would be best but most waters suitable for drinking should be safe.
DrO
Member:
nito

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 5:03 pm:

Dr. O thanks again.

I am a little worried now... The information I got for mixing a liniment like cool pack green jelly, absorbine, and bigeloil was from barrelhorseworld.com which is a message board. I posted a message on there regarding DMSO so I could get other people’s experiences and I got several replies on how others used it…. from individuals that worked on the track that had race track remedies to those that have been using it for several years on their performance horses. Many of them mix it with either a liniment or furazone. Some are even putting it in a plastic spray bottle or use either cotton or saran under a standing bandage to wrap it.... eek!


I just can not believe all the incorrect ways so many people are using it and have no knowledge that they have to really be careful with this stuff because of its potential hazards.

I am so glad that I’ve found the instruction on how it should properly be used so I am not putting myself or my horses at risk.

Thanks,
Jamie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 29, 2010 - 5:30 pm:

Jamie, though I do not advocate it, I too have seen DMSO/furacin paints and did not see problems associated with it. Liniments however are often a mixture of rubrifacents: they are designed to cause mild inflammatory reactions when placed on the skin: you experience it as a warm feeling and may see redness in unpigmented skin with their use. I would be afraid of what might happen if they were driven into the tissues deeper with the DMSO.
DrO
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