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  Discussion on Dusty and Bute
Author Message
Member:
quatro

Posted on Friday, Apr 1, 2011 - 9:45 pm:

Dr. O, I read the article on the bute, and think I will be ok with using bute for Dusty, but just want to check with you.
As in my discussion on I think Dusty is going to die today . .. since that time I have come to this conclusion, and wonder if you think it could be right.
After his first episode, he was in the sling, on bute and liniment rub downs. After about a week, i stopped the bute. after around 3-4 days without bute, he went down, and could not get back up. It seemed almost like he had a seizure, his back legs would run in place, and his eyes would roll in his head, this would be after we tried pushing pulling jerking to get him up.
I have come to this possible conclusion. I started him back on the bute 1 gm, in the afternoon, along with 15 mg of ProBios to help with his occasional diarrhea when he gets any alfalfa.
He has gone down, and when I run at him he is able to get up, I also have seen mud on his side, so he has gotten back up, even when we are not around.
He is very old, don't know could be 25 to 35 ?, he has sunken in flank muscles, is a bag of bones basically, but eats really well, has squeaky noises when he grinds his teeth to eat. He gets senior feed soaked, and soft grass hay which he eats, quids a bit.
I am wondering if, he is so arthritic, lack of muscle tone, etc, that when he gets down, and trys to get up without the bute, he is in excruciating pain, and after several trys, just gives up because of the pain.
When he is on the bute, so far (cross fingers), he has been able to struggle to get himself up.
Can I keep him on the bute indefinately, this is I am sure his last spring on the planet? And if so, is there something else I can add to his diet to make sure the medicine does not cause another problem, i will have to deal with?
thanks
suz
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Apr 3, 2011 - 10:24 am:

If you are willing to take the risks of bute administration and you think this horses's quality of life worth supporting you can use bute though firocoxib would probably be safer. No there is nothing you can feed that might ameliorate the potential toxic effects of the bute.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Sunday, Apr 3, 2011 - 4:51 pm:

But couldn't some remedies help to prevent or treat ulcers that could occur while on long-term Bute?

I found a daily dose of Miracle Clay helped my horse's stomach but my Vet said to give it at least 6 hours before or after the dose of Bute so it would not interfere with the action of the Bute.

(Some believe the Miracle Clay does remove toxins from the system but that is likely unproven).

Or the prescription acid relievers for ulcers work really well for stomach pain caused by Bute but it takes several days to be effective.

Granted this isn't eliminating the toxicity of the Bute but could help Dusty's comfort level.
Member:
rtrotter

Posted on Sunday, Apr 3, 2011 - 7:15 pm:

Susan,

I had a horse on 4 gms of bute a day 2gm am and 2gm pm, plus a concoction of other meds to keep him comfortable. I mixed the bute with a horse product similar to PeptoBismol called Pro-CMC. I have used Human Malox on horses as well. I think the trick is to coat the stomach to protect it from the bute, I also made sure the horse had eaten to offer more protection but as Vicki Z says, this will not prevent the toxicity issues. I also know you are most likely trying to make this horse as comfortable as you can and maybe in this case long term toxicity is not an issue, but comfort is.

Take care
Rachelle
Member:
quatro

Posted on Monday, Apr 4, 2011 - 7:34 pm:

He seems to do so much better on the bute, but of course i worry the cure will just cause more problems.
I pretty much told him, the next time you can't get up, that will be your final resting place!
Of course, he has been doing so good, and the dry lot was finally dry enough to let him out with the other horse today. He ran like a young stud, and then of course, what is the first thing he has to do?????? Find the only low spot, slight grade and roll, so there he is again, stuck uphill no less.
I had a concrete worker here, and got tom, we could not get him up. We rolled him on his side, on the more level, pushed . . . pulled tugged. Finally I got some corn, gave him a handful, and then like giving Popeye Spinach we gave it one more harvard try, and he finally got himself up.
It is a drag to have your body give out, when your spirit is still willing. I know I can not keep this up for long, if he gets down when we are not around, etc. etc. But I guess I am putting off what I know needs to be done. It is much easier I would imagine if they are in obvious pain.
He just does not have the strength.
thanks
suz
Member:
lara

Posted on Monday, Apr 4, 2011 - 7:51 pm:

Susan, have you tried the previoxx? Pretty cheap and somewhat safer...just an option...huggs
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 4, 2011 - 9:20 pm:

Vicki and trotter,
NSAID ulcer creation is not a "local" toxic or acidic event. It is a blood borne pharmacological event that occurs after absorption of the NSAID into the blood.

This toxicity is caused by the suppression of prostaglandin formation (which is how it suppresses inflammation) in the wall of the gi tract which in-turn slows down new cell formation that replaces the daily turn over of the of the mucosa. If the cell replacement is slow enough ulcers will form. None of these treatments prevent this event unless they prevent absorption of the bite into the blood stream.

In humans there is a feeling proton pump inhibitors, like omeprazole, reduces the incidence of gastric and pyloric ulcers but this remains anecdotal. How this may apply to the horse is unknown as there are important differences in the physiology and toxic effects in the horse most important of which is that clinical NSAID toxicity in the horse is mainly a large bowel event and not ulceration of the stomach.
DrO
Member:
vickiann

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 5, 2011 - 12:30 pm:

Thanks Dr. O.

I learned this from my farm Vet when my horse Perry kept having ulcer problems while he was on Bute for laminitis.

And it sure was true. Banamine (or Bute) injections made him feel much worse while he was having the ulcer problem.

He experienced very little relief with Cimetidine injections given by my Vet for the problem.

The Miracle Clay helped but the GastroGuard worked great.
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