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HorseAdvice.com » Treatments and Medications for Horses » Anti-inflammatories (NSAID's, Steroids, Arthritis Rx) » Oral Glucosamine, ChonDrOitin Sulfate, and Hyaluronic Acid, their use in Arthritis »
  Discussion on ChonDrOitin sulfate vs glucosamine HCL, vs glucosamine sulfate
Author Message

Posted on Monday, Nov 1, 1999 - 1:14 pm:

So what is the difference?

My vet was out for fall shots/teeth floating and we inspected the mare's hocks - a little fluid on the front of one and she is a bit stiff when coming out, but warms up out of it after a few minutes of light canter. (Hey, who isn't creaky? The mare and I are about the same age when horse years are converted to people years - I'm creaky, too.)

We discussed alternatives and, interestingly, the vet was biased to try supplementation first, then, perhaps IV injections and was very reluctant to do hock injections unless really needed, which they don't seem to be.

His bias is a product with glucosamine, not chonDrOitin sulfate. So, I dragged out the catalogs last night and decided I was clueless. What is the difference between the hcl and the sulfate of the glucosamine? Is it important to have some of the other stuff - perna, yucca, vitamins, whatever? It all seems like marketing hype to me.

How important is a "name brand" product? One of unknown brands was nearly pure glucosamine sulfate at a much better price per dose at equivalent levels. It also didn't include all the extraneous stuff - is that good or bad?

And, what should be the daily dose for a 1000 lb equine? 5,000 mg? 1750 mg? 8,000 mg? It is all over the map. (LOL, I even found a few calculation errors in the catalogs.)

In the past, I've supplemented with chonDrOitin sulfate (may have helped her sore front hooves improve - when I stopped, not noticeable regression), Ester-C (no noticeable change with or without), MSM (no noticeable change with or without).

Just trying to become less confused.

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 1999 - 8:36 am:

Hello Chris
Your confusion is well understood. The problem is we don't know the answer to your questions. We have a general feeling that scientific experiments SUPPORT that these products help reduce pain but the chemistry of these molecules is extremely complicated and makes nailing down specific recommendations impossible at this time. Maybe when we come up with the mechanisim of action that would be easier!

When I use the term glucosamine it is synonymous with glucosaminoglycans, glycosaminoglycans, proteoglycans and in fact they are all muccopolysaccarides.

I do not think there is much difference between the various salts of glycosamine: HCl and sulfate. The salts are used to percipitate the active ingredient and I do not think we know if one may dissolve better than the other.

The chonDrOitin / glucosamine argument is unsettled. First realize that glucosamine is a very large class of molecules that includes chonDrOitin sulfate which is further subdivided into groups of molecules that can vary in dozens of ways. In general cartilage uses 5 categories of glucosamines with the predominant one being chonDrOitin sulfate.

In other words a product that is 100% chonDrOitin is 100% glucosamine while a product that is 100% glucosamine may contain large quanities of chonDrOitin.

So you can make the argument for glucosamine: It may contain a bigger variety of molecules some of which may be important and not in chonDrOitin sulfate products.

Or, you can make the argument for chonDrOitin: It contains the predominant building block of articular cartilage and therefore has more of what I need. Besides not all glucosamines are used by the joints.

And as Kurt liked to say, "So it goes." Personally I look for a product that has a good mixture of both, I add the weights of the two together divide by the cost to get a cost per gram and then buy the cheapest product that comes from a company I recognize the name of. I do not think the extra stuff has any proven benefit. I wonder how much chonDrOitin sulfate the pure (cheaper) glucosamine product has in it?
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 2, 1999 - 3:10 pm:

Who is Kurt? :O)

How confusing this all is.

I looked for products with both and they seem to call out either chonDrOitin sulfate or glucosamine. I felt lucky if they listed the amount in mg. per dose. One cataloger even went so far as to say not to feed both CS and glucosamine at the same time.

Not one of the glucosamine products listed the amount of CS component - or even mentioned CS.

Sounds like I need to do my own experiment. What would be a criteria for success? Shorter warm ups? Perceived less stiffness? Maybe I should set up my own double blind with my instructor, somehow.

Too bad the horse can't tell me if/when she feels more comfortable ... hmm ... she'd probably tell me it is when she is dozing under an apple tree in the middle of a pasture. Never mind.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 7:02 am:

Hello Chris,
It has gotten to where I avoid the products that do not list the amount of each component though I used for years a product composed of mussles that still does not have the ingredients listed. It was the first I could find used in good scientific experiments. Using the above criterion we are currently dispensing a Vetri-Science Labs product called Glyco-Flex plus.

In human studies it required large double blinded studies to positively demonstrate an effect. It would be difficult to detect the results in the short run. In general it was found arthritis suffers required less NSAIDs to remain comfortable.

I continue to recommend the products in luke warm fashion with the thought it may prolong the useful career of horses doing lots of ring, arena work. My wife's TWH is on it and we have not had to inject that arthritic hock in several years.

Kurt Vonnegut was a science fiction writer that critiqued social foibles. He would make nonjudmental observations through the eyes of a main character and allow the reader to decide whether it made sense or not. In more than one of his books the character would say after a particularly difficult to understand (explain?) observation ..."and so it goes".
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 9:16 am:

Hi there, I just wanted to tell you about my experience with Glucasamine Sulfate. I have a 12 year old golden retriever that has become arthritic and was limping extremely bad on the front shoulder (he had surgery when he was 8 months old on both his front shoulders because of OCD). I took him to the vet just to confirm that nothing else was happening other than arthritis. The vet highly suggested putting him on 1 tablet of glucosamine sulfate and 1 ascripton before considering steriods. After 2 almost 3 weeks I saw a remarkable difference in him. He was not limping anymore, he actually was and still is acting like he's 5 years younger.

For myself, my knees started to ache on a regular basis and my finger joints (and a few other joints) so I decided to try it myself. I did try to monitor what I felt before and how I feel now and my knees don't ache, my hips don't ache.....I'm a true believer in glucosamine sulfate. I ride/train 4 horses a day. I have a warmblood (17.3) that takes alot of physical work from me to get her to come through and maintain it.

My warmblood was diagnosed with sidebone and ringbone. I'm grateful that the ringbone is not interferring with the joint(s). I do alot of arena/ring work with her also. I put her on glucosamine Sulfate/MSM combo mainly to slow down the hardening of the cartilage (hopefully). Her freedom of movement has improved and I feel like it is benefitting her because of the all the ring work she does which puts stress on her joints.

Overall, I do believe in that combination and would recommend it depending on the individual situation.

Jo

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 10:01 am:

Ah, that Kurt. I thought we had a member named Kurt, :O) Duh.

Thanks Jo and Dr. O. It does peeve me, too, when you can't find the amounts per dose.

What about the extraneous stuff like "SOD" (superoxide whatever) purported to help with absorption? Are there any ingredients necessary to balance the glucosamines and improve absorption?

My latest favorite hype (can you tell I've been in marketing too long?) is Corta-flx's "Dramatic difference in 5 days" or your money back.

A friend and I split a quart looking for the dramatic difference and we are still waiting for our horses to start piaffing in their stalls for pleasure, LOL.

Now, how to collect the refund ... hmmm.

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 3, 1999 - 12:57 pm:

SOD or superoxide dismutase is a free radical scavenger. However, the interaction of superoxide dismutase with sodium chonDrOitin sulfate as been studied in vitro and in vivo. The enzyme (SOD) easily forms both enzyme associations and non-covalent complexes with chonDrOitin sulfate in solution. Almost half of the superoxide dismutase subunits were found to be covalently bound to chonDrOitin sulfate; and the modified subunit retained the ability to form dimers with the native subunit. It is interesting that medical research has investigated CS as a means of retaining SOD in particular areas such as arterial walls as an anti-thrombotic treatment for example...not the other way round.


Carol

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 7:12 am:

Hello All,
I continue to be unable to find proof of benefit for arthritis with the oral use of free radical scavengers (SOD, MSM) with the possible exception of vitamin C. Carol do you know of any work to suggest otherwise?
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 2:40 pm:

Well DrO, there really aren’t any good studies out there that show oral administration of SOD as being beneficial in arthritic situations. My guess is that SOD works best where it is placed and may actually be degraded in the stomach or be utilized there, although I cannot find scientific evidence for this. Slightly protective effects of borderline significance were observed with orgotein (a superoxide dismutase) with oral administration (Colombo et al. Arthritis Rheum 1983; 123(1):3-6). It does seem that SOD injected has some benefit against arthritis and a number of studies have reported that inhaled SOD to be beneficial against lung damage. Local application of SOD also seems to have considerable benefit regarding arthritis and other inflammatory conditions (Mizushima et al. Drugs Exp Clin Res 1991;17(2):127-31). Vitamin C is a good anti-inflammatory molecule but so is vitamin E. Both have been shown to be beneficial in lowering the inflammation in arthritis situations when orally administered(Kheir-Eldin et al. Agents Actions 1992; 36(3-4):300-5).
I suspect the short end of the sick here is that unless a conclusive study shows oral administration of SOD as being beneficial, then it is a waste of money. Maybe we should be supplementing our arthritic horses food with vitamins C&E.

Carol
P.S. I did not know what MSM stood for so I couldn't look it up in the pharmacology books here.

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 3:26 pm:

Without looking it up: Methylsulfonylmethane but don't burn me if I am off a little. Vitamin E is a nutrient I am beginning to actively recommend supplementation in horses not on green grass.
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Nov 4, 1999 - 7:29 pm:

How much vitamin E would you recommend, Dr. O? Can it be gotten without the selenium? (We're in NC)

My mare is not on grass except when hand fed, and is about 1000 lbs. The timothy hay is quite green looking.

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 11:45 am:

Hello Chris,
For a otherwise healthy horse on fresh good quality green hay, 50 IU Vitamin E a day is good. If the hay is not of good quality and the horse working at all: 100 IU a day. I would buy the human product, generic but from a well known company.
DrO

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 12:21 pm:

Dr. O,

You just put a vitamin E pill on their food and they eat it? (asked incredulously ...)

And the hope is that the vitamin E acts as an antioxident?

Thanks!

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 1:09 pm:

Dear Chris,
Please ask a simple question about a simple product next time, because I have been faithfully reading this post, getting more and more confused, not understanding all the big words, but reading on because one needs to learn all the time, don't you know. [SOD meant something quite different to me - lump of grass, drunk, etc. - until now.]

And after such complicated questions and answers, where I'm thinking, thank heavens, only Vitamin E to worry about [plus Vitamin C and Brewers Yeast that he's already on], you ask incredulously if your princess will eat a Vitamin E pill? Oh, how simple. Scoop out a carrot, keep the little hat, pop Vitamin E pill inside, DrOp of honey or molasses, hat back on, horse chomps it up without realising a nasty lurks inside. Or, if you dampen your food, if the nasty is a pill, grind it and add it to the food, or if it is a capsule, pull the end off and add it to the food. If you feed cubes dry, carrot trick will have to do.

Cheers,
Alexa

Posted on Friday, Nov 5, 1999 - 1:47 pm:

Alexa,

I'm sitting here at work after a very serious meeting and cracking up.

My limited experience with vitamin E is that it comes in oil capsules and 100 iu is only half of what I supplement myself with daily!

Since my mare is at my riding instructors, supplement administration must be easy ... I can find vitamin C in powder that is easy to add to the mare's supper, but I have this mental image of her finding the vitamin E capsule and ptooeying it out, GRIN. And, I'm not sure I can imagine her caretaker poking a hole in the capsule and squeezing out the E ... I'll have to look over the vitamin catalogs.

I think Dr. O once said he is really glad he doesn't have to treat my horse - he'd have to charge by the question instead of treatment, GRIN.

Thanks.

Posted on Saturday, Nov 6, 1999 - 8:41 am:

Hello Chris,
Right, the ones I get come in a gel capsule that can have the end snipped off and squeezed out. I take 1000 IU of E daily myself (I listen to Joe and Terry Graedon). I think it is easier than measuring out a scoop of Strongid C, it is premeasured.

I know I mentioned vitamin C above but I am increasingly not recommending it for horses. Though vitamin C is essential for healthy physiology in horses, they do not need vitamin c in their diet. They are one of the species that can synthesize this vitamin. A number of studies in horses have proven it is unneeded and no benefit has yet been found from it use in these studies, including its supplementation in the very athletic horse. We know disease can lower the plasma vitamin C levels but supplementation has not been shown to be of benefit in diseased horses either.
DrO

Posted on Monday, Nov 8, 1999 - 4:27 pm:

Well... I just have to beat a dead horse to a pulp. Dr.O, I now understand why you repeatedly dodged my questions related to glucosamine and chonDrOitin (seemed out of character). My vet thinks Cosequin is the BEST as it contains BOTH. However, it comes witha hefty price tag. On the cheaper side, my vet, another equine specialist and a horse supply distributor all recommended Flex Free (chonDrOitin). Maybe Flex Free's wholesaler is doing a better job of creating awareness for his product. I don't know but 3 knowledgeable people for 3 was good enough for me. My horse is stalled with an injury and therefore cannot be evaluated for improvement with this product. However, after researching it for the horse, I started giving it to my grandma (her supplement has both gluco and chondr) and she is responding positively. I wonder if using this stuff causes the body to produce a lesser viscosity synoval fluid in the product's absence than would have been produced if the product were never introduced? Any shot of becoming glucosaminoglycan (sp?) dependent?

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 9, 1999 - 6:48 am:

Hello PSpears,
"Any chance" is a pretty open question and so I will have to dodge this one too: the only answer we have is we don't know.
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 30, 1999 - 1:53 pm:

Hello all. I need to know the difference, if any, between Legend and Trisaccarid. I was told by my vet that Trisaccarid contains exactly the same ingredients and molecular weight as Legend (hyaluronic acid), only it was a generic form, and so was much more inexpensive. Only, after my horse's first injection of it (IV) I've since been told that Trisaccarid is a mixture of 3 different glucosaminoglycans, which I understand that Legend isn't??!! It sounds more like Adequan to me, only I thought Adequan was given IM. The bottle of Trisaccarid has no additional info. on it except "IV only", and no package insert is available. I'm confused, and I really need to know what my horse is being treated with. Can you help?

Also, besides this site, is there a place on the web to access an extensive list (definitions & treatment amounts) of equine drugs? I couldn't find Trisaccarid on this site. Alternately, what is the name of a book that vets use to look up drugs?

Thanks!!

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 1, 1999 - 6:46 am:

Hello Colleen,
I have not seen the product Trisaccarid and do not know who manufacturers it. Neither is it listed in any of my pharmaceutical reference books. Of course new brands of most generic drugs are appearing and disappearing all the time, so the fact they are not in any of my referecences means little.

Again terminology can get in the way, hyaluronic acid is a glucosaminoglycan. Most hyaluronic brands differ by there concentration of the drug and by the molecular weight (MW) of the very long hyaluronic acid molecule. Currently it is unknown if MW effects efficacy. The good studies have used Legend brand hyaluronic acid, but I suspect any good quality HA product will give good results. HA is expensive so I too shop price, but stay with companies I am familiar with.
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Mar 5, 2000 - 2:23 am:

Even tho Adequan is IM, I have heard of people using it IV, apparently with no harm, although the instructions only specify IM use.
That said, I have my mare on Adequan and CortaFlx, and she is moving better now than she was 5 yrs. ago. (Adequan 1x mo. after loading, 4 weekly doses, CortaFlx daily, 1oz.)
I had started with Flexxion, which really made a difference at first, then I jumped around and bought whatever happened to be on sale at the time, so I have used alot of these supplements over the past 2 yrs. or so.
I found that for prevention, the ChonDrOitins seemed to work best, it seems to help at the earliest stages of arthritis also.
Glucosamine seems to maintain and improve a horse that is already arthritic.
The Adequan was a fairly recent addition, as my mare had injured her self and was a bit off in the LF. (I had her on it last year, but it was sporadic)
These are just my own observations, I could be totally wrong, LOL but my mare has responded to most of the supplements that I used on her, for the better. I am a believer in the neutraceuticals and the Adequan, (wonderful stuff)
If any one on the board would know where I could get it for less than $50 a dose I would really appreciate it, as it is pricey.

Posted on Sunday, Mar 5, 2000 - 12:11 pm:

Jumping in a bit late on this one. I have used, upon the advice of my trainer, various joint supplements. Starting with yucca, on to Grand Flex (glucosomine), then Max Flex (glucosomine, then Corta Flx (chonDrOitin) (still waiting for my horse to piaffe as well, Chris!). I've got the stiffest mover in the world, my 12 yo TB gelding off the track (ok, maybe not, but he's stiff!). Did I see any improvement? Well, maybe slightly. And yet I still faithfully purchase these expensive products every month and cross my fingers.

Now I just started working with an 8 year old SWB gelding. He's out of shape, and he's has been on and off stiff but seems to be more stiff behind as he gets back into work. So we put him on MSM to start. Slight improvement. So if less is good, more is better, right? So this time I went back to the tack store wondering again, chonDrOitin or glucosomine?? Neither worked miracles for my TB, so I figured I'd have the best luck with a mix and found one product that had both on the shelf, PowerFlex. It claims to contain 5000MG Glucosomine and something like 3250MG ChonDrOitin.
So we'll see how it goes. Nothing like spending an extra $60/month for the promise of a new, fantastic moving horse the next day!

Ok, I better throw in a question for Dr.O or it will appear I am just rambling....What on earth is Shark Cartilage supposed to do compared to the glucosomine or the chonDrOitin? I have seen that advertised on what product...NextLevel I think. Oh, and what is Glucosomine GAGs? I have seen that advertised before also. And do you think or is there evidence to show that Gluco/Chond supps are absorbed better in liquid form like products like CortaFlx claim?

And one more, if these things aren't working for a horse, such as my TB, does that mean go to hock injections or would that be an indicator that injections aren't likely to help either being they are essentially the same thing? (Assuming of course that whatever stiffness my horse is having is actually in the hocks)

Posted on Sunday, Mar 5, 2000 - 5:01 pm:

Hello Jaime,
Shark Cartiage is one of the common sources of these joint protection compounds so look for the concentration.

How much or whether these compounds will help yourr horse at all depends on why he moves the way he does. If the problem is pain from DJD you may see some improvement with the use of these products but if you are battling innate performance ceilings youy could feed your horses 1000 dollar bills, known to be rich in chonDrOprotective substances, and he will get no better. Or how about an inbetween: you are being limited by a mild disease process yet it is not arthritis: again glucosamine and chonDrOtin will not help.

You must look at your horse objectively and possibly with the help of a experienced trainer and vet formulate a working hypotheses as to what is limiting your horse's performance and then make rational adjustments. Use the results of the adjustments to evaluate your hypothesis, then make further adjustments... it is a lot like life, no one thing is likely to make a big difference it is the whole process that is important.
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2000 - 12:10 pm:

Jaime,

The best thing I did for my horse was buy a saddle that is comfortable for her.

I got one of those new Ansur dressage saddles that are treeless and the difference in my horse has been stunning.

I'd no plan to buy a saddle when I took her to a demo of it in January - my friend was going with her horse so we went as a lark.

First we rode in our own saddles, then we tried the Ansur, then we went back to our own saddles. Well, the difference was night/day and I was hooked. I wrote about it in a product review.

My old saddle had been fit to her and was checked every year ... but it wasn't good enough for her comfort.

Now, I am starting to attribute multiple issues in past history to poor saddle fit ... her performance would deteriorate at multiple day shows - our best ride being the first, she would buck at the canter off and on, our canters would not be nice - hollow/heavy, etc.

In just a few short weeks, we are working on other interesting things and she is moving very nicely.

I can't say it is the saddle change 100% because we've been working very seriously and I think my riding is much improved over this last year, but the saddle put us over the top.

In our last lesson before the mishap with the fence, my instructor told me to begin getting her used to the whip cues from the ground in preparationg for half steps and piaffe this fall.

A year ago our canter sucked. I never would have blamed the saddle after the fitting sessions, yet ...

So, maybe your horse doesn't need the supplements, but the fit of the saddle is causing him to move poorly. Just a consideration to ponder.

Posted on Monday, Mar 6, 2000 - 5:43 pm:

Chris,
I have had the saddle I am currently using (A Klimke-Miller) checked by my trainer and it fits him well. I also ride with a thick western pad (ugly!) when schooling because it provides him the best protection for his back. I have thought about the treeless saddle for him, but my friend rode in one and didn't like it, she said it didn't have much support, rather flat seat and no knee rolls (yes, I like my "sofa" saddle, I admit it!). I would be interested in hearing your opinion of the Ansur saddle.

He gets regular chiropractic and is always out of alignment in his lower back just behind where the saddle rests. We are also going to start doing massage with him to see if that helps. He is sometimes so sore that his whole body collapses when you run your hand along his spine. His canter, by the way, is wonderful most of the time. Only when he is really sore does his canter suffer. It's his trot where we have the most problems, he's tense, taking short quick steps, and grinding his teeth. He just cannot seem to relax under saddle, and I think that is the reason his back hurts, because he holds so much tension in it.

I have since quit doing dressage with him and am leasing a SWB to pursue my passion with. My TB is being leased out by a woman who is going to try jumping with him. He's just too tense for dressage, whether he's stiff, his back hurts, or just nervous I don't know, but I think after 8 years I have just given up on getting him to relax and just try to keep him as comfortable as possible.

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 12:33 am:

Jaime, if your horse "almost collapses" when you run your hand along his back, this would seem to me that he has quite a sore back! I'd get a second opinion about the saddle fit. Also, have you investigated the source of his pain? I knew a lady whose horse had a vetebral "kissing lesion" which caused the horse to have a very sore back, and injections into the site relieved the pain.
If he's too sore for dressage, how is he going to jump??

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 1:01 am:

Chris, I'm very interested in learning more about the Ansur saddles. I never heard of them but your posting was intriging. Both my horses are wide-backed and hard to fit even with wide trees.
I did an internet search for Ansur saddles but didn't find anything specific. Do you know where I could get some information? Thanks.
Pam Griffin

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 3:26 am:

Pam,
You brought up some good points. I have thought about having a vet check out his back. The thing is he is fine right after his chiropractic, but then his spine falls out of alignment after a week or two. His muscles around the area then become sore from holding tension there, which is why the chiropractor suggested I start having a massage therapist work on him. Now that I know there could possibly something going on there that is treatable, I may try that.
I was thinking he would do better as a hunter/jumper not so much because of his back but because he can go around on relatively little contact, and without contact he relaxes a little better. Also, jumpers don't mind the "hot" horses as much. That, and my trainer thought jumping might be good for his back to strengthen the muscling there. Finally, I thought he could try jumping because he seems to hate dressage and I thought it might be something he would like better, he is more of a "hunter" type.

Incidently, I got the opportunity to ride in the Ansur saddle tonight while I was test riding a horse for a friend. I have to say, I didn't like it at all. I love the idea, and I have thought about one for my TB, but I couldn't ride in it. It's very flat, with no knee roll or anything in front of your leg but flat leather. The back of the saddle was fairly high, with a fake pommel-like thing in front. What happened for me anyway was it wanted to put my leg too far forward. In that position I was unable to get my leg on the horse. When I moved my leg back to where I could feel his sides, it pitched me forward. Also, there was something the owner was saying about the stirrup leathers, you had to have thin, stretchy leathers to absorb shock, it made for a very unsteady leg for me, and usually my legs are fairly quiet. It reminded me of a saddle seat saddle in front but the back was more like a hunt saddle, the end result is I had a hard time feeling balanced in it. The owner said she didn't like it at first too but after a month or so she got used to it.

Jaime

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 11:10 am:

Hi Jaime,
Thanks for the input on the Ansur saddle. It does sound sort of strange. Re: your horse that hates dressage...I, too, have a horse that hates dressage, but the reason is that she has arthritic hocks and collection hurts her, despite many injections and Legend. She is very happy and comfortable being a pleasure trail horse. Horses "hate" things usually because they hurt, and and until the source of the pain is uncovered and treated, no type of riding is going to be truly pleasurable to the horse, just a bit less painful.

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 4:17 pm:

The web site for ansur is https://www.ansursaddle.com/

I tend to prefer a saddle that doesn't put me some where. There has been a trend in recent years to create saddles that fit about the rider to hold him/her in position, but I've never liked that.

Interestingly, I was riding in a County Warmblood as it comes in an extra wide tree (5). I got a larger size for me to give me a little extra wriggle room as it has a deep seat (not my preference). Since riding in the Ansur, I determined I'd been collapsed on my left side a bit and the County had let me. The Ansur tells you (by feel/balance) when you are not even/correct in your seat, so this has helped me fix a bad habit of overweighting my left seat bone. The other thing is that I tended to have to constantly reposition my leg back when in the County (chair seat tendancy). My leg position has not been an issue in the Ansur.

I'm using Stubben leathers, which are pretty substantial and positioned the buckle near the iron. A leather sleeve from Dressage Extensions holds the end of the leathers. I don't think I'd like stretchy stirrup leathers, LOL. Since the leathers attach on a ring instead of a bar, you are supposed to use safety stirrups.

Some horses that are a bit muttony withered or down hill required a bit of extra padding in the front area of the Ansur because is is flexible front to back, too. This helps keep the rider from going forward.

Mine came with average knee rolls that can be detached. The also have small and large knee rolls.

I did take a few rides to get used to the feel of the Ansur. Sitting trot took the longest, but only a few rides.

I personally know a couple of people that decided it wasn't for them. Tad Coffin is now makeing a nice saddle that is a good "back to basics" design - flatter seat, minimum leg padding, etc. My riding instructor likes this one a lot.

Cheers.

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 7, 2000 - 11:18 pm:

Chris, thanks for all the info. I'll take a look at the web site. Pam

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 8, 2000 - 4:28 pm:

Angela--

I have a source for generic Legend, which is MUCH cheaper, and has been very effective for my TB, but not Adequan. Let me know if you want the info. to get this. And, if you do find another, less expensive, source of Adequan, please post it.

Thanks!

Colleen
Member:
Lisabeth

Posted on Friday, Mar 21, 2003 - 3:15 pm:

Dr. O,

I too have read and re-read so much product information on joint supplements.

I am looking for a realatively cheap product not to keep a horse in work, but only to keep two of my broodmares more comfortable.

One mare is 19 and has an old coffin bone fracture. Visually sound, wonderful movement and attitude, but upon flexion (like farrier trims) she steps off very sore (temporarily). My other mare is younger, 12, but with advanced ringbone and arthritis in one foot. She walks okay, but trots visibly off.

From what I have read here, I am on the look out for a basic glucosamine/chonDrOitin product. I understand there are no specific reports of problems using these w/ mares in foal.

My question is, I have found a couple generic products (all manufactured by United Vet Equine) that fit my criteria, but contain yucca. I know that devils dew claw can cause uterine contractions in pregnant mares, but is this also true for yucca?

Thank you.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2003 - 10:47 am:

Neither the herbal texts or scientfic literature has anything on the possible effects on pregnancy. It appear we do not know. Any members with experience using yucca on pregant mares?
DrO
Member:
Jcsmoon

Posted on Saturday, Mar 22, 2003 - 9:24 pm:

Wow, this discussion has been all over the map. I will just throw this in there. I have a 5 year old filly that has had OCD surgery on both rear legs and has a bit of arthritis in the front leg from an injury as a foal. The surgon said Chon/Gluc suppliments may not help but they wouldn't hurt. I read some studies done on humans and felt it was worth a try.... but I am a TIGHT WADD!! and felt that I was getting hosed on products with a Horse on the label. I cleared it through my vet to use a product labeled for Humans.

The filly was on it for about 9 months and was very free moveing, I ran out and just left it be to see if I could detect a diffrence. In about 30 days I began to see her limping a bit more during warm up and exhibit "hip hanging" behavior more. I put her back on the suppliment and she returned to her previous level gradually over 30 to 60 days.

I found that Costco had the cheapest price per mg

https://www.costco.com/frameset.asp?trg=product%2Easp&catid=589&subid=770&hierid= 1010&prdid=10022916&log=

I started out with a loading dose, but now feed her 3 tablets a day which appears to be enough to maintain her comfort level. I just throw them in her grain and she munches them down with no fuss.

I feel that it has provided her with some benifit.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Apr 3, 2003 - 11:36 am:

Hello Emily,
What a wonderful idea. I checked my supplement against our horses supplement and guess what, cheaper. Throw in I trust generic but well known human name brands for content, cleanliness, and freshness better than I do equine products this looks like a real win-win process.
DrO
Member:
Mfinan

Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 11:37 am:

I have an older gelding that I used Legend on for inflammation of an old shoulder injury. This worked, but the expense of about $40.00 per month is high. Dr. O, do you think I might try G&C as a replacement? How many MG for a loading dose and then for maintenance?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 10:20 pm:

If you are talking glucosamine and chonDrOitin, there is an article on it in this section that has addresses efficacy and dosage recommendations.
DrO
Member:
Fjens99

Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 9:00 am:

Dr O,
I have been reading the discussions above and wondered itf the Glucosomine- ConDrOtin supplements would help a yearling with ephypitis?
We have tried about everything at this point with out much improvement. This is a 15 month halter baby that continues to have growth spurts dispite diet reduction and a reduced exercise program. On going now for approx. 5 months.
Height now is 14'3 1/2 and 700 lbs.Never lame just a lot of toe pointing and ankle buckle after excersise ( only some days)
Xrays show a lot of inflammation in the hocks
What would the proper dose be if this would be a good supplement?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 9:34 am:

No, it is not likely to help epiphysitis. Is your horse lame and if not how are you diagnosing this?
DrO
Member:
Fjens99

Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 8:21 am:

Dr o,
The horse has been diagnosed by my vet after several visits and xrays. The problem is primarily in the inside of the hocks, one side worse that the other. You can see the inflamation swelling just looking at him. We had him an all oat hay diet with multi- vit supplements, MSM, copperquine and a 7 week series of a alpha glucosime injection which they said was a generic type of Legend? Never been lame but is obviously sore when you touch the inside hock area.
The last visit - a week ago they said just put him back on a normal diet and excercise him by turn out or ponying with a ATV or another horse. I think they just gave up as he continues to grow dispite the diet change
Well I dont have either so I turned him out for 3 days. Now the horse is borderline lame much worse.
I am considering taking him to UC DAvis as I dont think my vet is prepared for this type of problem.
Any thoughts on this?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 6:54 pm:

Prior to the development of lameness, I think you are mistaking your horse's reaction to handling with pain. Horses become lame long before you can detect sensitivity to palpation, not the other way around. So the question is now that he is lame, where is the lameness originating? If there is remarkable swelling this may indeed be the source inspite of the palpation findings being incidental. I do get the feeling you have hit a bit of a wall diagnostically and therapeutically and from this side I do not have a clear picture of what is happening. If you feel the need for a second opinion I will be the last to disagree.
DrO
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