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  Discussion on Mentally unbalanced mare
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Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 10:32 am:

I have been working with a really difficult mare for over a year and a half. We have gone back to the basics and things have improved but we have hit a wall. A few years ago, the owner sent her to a vet hospital and they gave her Prolyxin?sp It is a anti psychotic I understand. We are going to try it again. If that doesn't help her, what else can I try. She is ok at the walk and trot but as soon as you want to do any transitions from trot to canter, she gets neurotic and hopping up and down. She will do canter walk transitions but the owner still has a rough time with them. She would canter all day if you let her, she seems to have endless energy. Thanks, I will give more details if needed to help understand the problem.
Sheryl

Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 3:14 pm:

Saddle fit problems often show up with canter work. Can you rule this out as a problem?

Also try moving the saddle back a little such that the shoulder is free and not being pinched - this can happen at the canter.

How does the horse work on the lunge without a rider at the canter?

Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 3:40 pm:

She is fine on the lunge and long lined. This saddle seems to fit her fine. I have had about 5 saddles on her and this one seems to fit her best. It is a dressage saddle so we do set it back further than I would a hunt seat saddle. The owner was going to get a chiropractor out to check her out but the one she called isn't doing horses anymore. So, her vet is going to check out her back again. We haven't been able to find anything wrong yet. She does get that swelling in her jowl and sometimes it swells really badly but we haven't heard of what to do to help that. I generally won't ride her when it is really swollen. I know that has nothing to do with her back but it may have something to do with her head. I can't be sure if she is sore because she acts op or if she is acting up because she is sore. Thanks
Sheryl

Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 4:31 pm:

What happens if you lunge her with a rider astride?

Has the vet checked her hocks at all? Sometimes hock issues show up as back pain.

If you put her on low dose bute for a period of time (several weeks), does she change? This might indicate if the problem is physical pain, some where.

How would you rate her rider's skills? What is she being fed? Supplements? Her age? Has she ever had a foal? What is her turnout like? How often is she worked? What part of the world is she in? Where and what time of day is she worked (arena, covered, day time, etc.) Has she always been troublesome?

Sorry to ask so many questions. You've got a feature length "who dunnit" going, :O)

Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2000 - 10:39 pm:

The owner is terrified to be lunged while she is riding, apparently she got bucked off years ago on her when she was much younger but she refuses to try again, the mare lunges like a dream now. She was flexed(hocks, etc...) in the fall I think and they found nothing. She pulled something in her groin early this year and was off for 2 months. She was on stall rest and we tranquilized her for the first ride but she was really good. She has been on bute before too with no real change in her ride. She has also been on a relax with Valerian root with no success. The rider gets a little tense but I am a very secure rider and even if I sit or try 2 point and stay quiet, she still is impossible. She almost seems better with less turnout, from our experience during her lay-up. When we started her back to work she was not turned out right away and she was quite good, considering... She gets a little worse when turned out in a group in a large area and can also get where she is very difficult to catch. The owner likes her to have "friends" but I discourage any friends that are in the same paddock, I prefer them over the fence for her. She is 10 years old and this woman bought her just backed at 3 or 4 I think. She is boarded in Orange County, NY. She has never been bred. I would never consider breeding a horse like her. Her sire was Bold Destiny. She gets worked all different times, indoors and out. She has been difficult since day one. The owner is more stubborn than she is because I don't know anyone that would keep going with such a difficult animal. The horse and rider have seen the most improvement in the last year, but it is still not enough. I hope this answers most of your questions. The owner has been through most of the trainers in this area and I would hate to see her go through everything from the beginning again, only to end up in the same place. You could do walt trot, even with lateral work and when you get to canter transitions, her mind just goes on break I guess. I am not going to proofread this since I am too tired, I look forward to more questions and/or comments.
Sheryl

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 6, 2000 - 5:58 am:

We have had one member that has had success with prolixin then weaning the horse off of it. Please let us know the dosage (amount, concentration, and frequency) you used and what the results are.
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 6, 2000 - 11:16 am:

Has the owner considered having this mare spayed? I've seen a couple of real turnarounds in behavior following this procedure--although it is a drastic step. Are there no other horse chiros in your area? Can the owner not overcome her aversion to be lunged? Can you put anyone on this horse on a longe line? Maybe if you found a good rider who was willing, you could bore the mare into taking her canter transistions in stride.

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 6, 2000 - 12:52 pm:

Gosh, what a mess. This horse is lucky she hasn't been passed around. Most people aren't that committed.

Other physical issues that might be worth discussing with the vet include the possiblity of uterine infection, supression of her heat cycle (regumate or implant in neck) and a full check of her mouth/teeth.

You might consider reducing the protein in her diet. To test if this might help, you can try supplementing her with B1 (fairly cheap at tack stores and equine supply houses). If too much protein is contributing, then I am told it will show some improvement within a few days. Should this happen, then I'd reduce the grain or switch to a very low protein grain and use a lower protein hay. I'd then finish the supplement, too. I don't thing there is any real science supporting this, but I've heard it helps from a number of different anecdoetal sources.

I tend to believe that a horse's basic nature is to remain at rest if there are not outside influences. I.e. they are basically lazy unless there is good reason to move. Add pain, fear, food, etc. and they may have a reason to move. (What bit is in her mouth? Sometimes lowering it a hole or changing to a milder bit can help them stop running through an irritation in their mouth.)

For some reason, this horse is basically okay at walk and trot: the trot to canter with any rider is the real issue? And, when asked to transition, she "gets neurotic, hopping up and down" - can you elaborate - is this bolting, bucking, crowhops, rearing, not going forward ...

I'm surprised the owner is willing to canter her in an arena but not ride her on the lunge - the lunge environment is safer and with a bucking strap one can hang on. It is especially helpful if it is in the confines of a good sized round pen as this creates a "mental barrier" for the horse.

So, based on what you've told us, I'd 1) have her evaluated by a vet for any physical issue, including full evaluation of teeth, back, hocks, mare related problems, etc., 2) (maybe first) try the B1 as it is cheap and safe and easy, and 3) have a saddler out to check the saddle.

Then, for riding, I would always lunge her in side reins at walk - trot - canter in both directions within the confines of a lunge ring. When suitably settled, I'd add a competent rider whose only job is to stay aboard and have a following seat. I would do this repeatedly until it becomes boring to the mare. At the first sign of tension, I'd back up a little as I would want to push her envelope without putting her over the top. I'd have frequent stretch/rest breaks. I'd try to make the sessions interesting - even feeding a treat now and then when she is very good. Certainly reward with praise and petting. I would try never to make much of a misbehavior - just ride through it as if it didn't happen.

Since she is herd bound, I'd keep her turnout to an individual paddock.

Over time, I'd add large ring work off the lunge. I would never ask for canter unless the other work was quiet and relaxed. If the horse wants to go fast, I would bore her with going slow. Finally, for canter work, I might ask a walk to canter on a 20 m circle, a few strides, come back and praise before it goes to hell. I would do lots and lots of transitions from all gaits to all gaits so as to teach the half-halts. I would first do up and down transitions in the same place, so as to allow the horse to expect it. Since it is a mare, I would try to use the lightest of aids, but keep a contact in the rein and a leg on the side for reassurance/support.

I would also use TTEAM body work and ground exercises. For the ground exercises, I would especially work her in the labyrinth and go back to it every time she was overly excited. I would do TTEAM body work before riding (belly lifts, tail pulls, neck stretch, connected circles front to back, stretch front legs after saddling and pelvic tilt).

I would try, my hardest, to show her what she can do and not what she can't. That may be no cantering for quite some time. And, I'd have a very regular routine for a while that allowed her a transition from loafing time to work time - groom, lunge, ride building to harder work, etc.

I'm sure you know most of this, but maybe my writing it will trigger a thought. And, by the way, I'd keep training diary and calendar on her. It is possible you might notice a propensity to misbehave at certain times in her cycle or while doing certain exercises, etc.

If you are working with a ground person/trainer of your own that you trust, you might have them out for a second opinion. Trying to cure complex problems over the net is really self limiting.

Good luck. You sound like you really care what happens to the pair of them and that is good. Not every instructor is as caring.

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 7, 2000 - 9:36 am:

I have read all of the above: QUESTION?
Does this horse ever get out of training? If her whole life is spent going around in circles in arenas with people who seem to be afraid of her, I would seriously doubt she will ever improve. Nervous horses require riders with absolutely no pre-conceptions as to what will happen when they are mounted. They need riders who can get them through anything without any qualms whatsoever and ACCEPT THE FAILURES WITHOUT A FUSS. Nervousness will never go away, it must be accepted and managed. It is entirely possible that she is simply the wrong horse for the activity required and that she would excel given a task that does not bore her to death with predictablity or carry such high requirements for correctness.(riders tend to get caught up in results and performance and transmit their stress to the horse). As for the transitions to canter, I would simply forget the formal training for awhile and just ride through what ever crap she decided to pull (don't stop and start over) and carry on with a canter when she gets around to one. No right or wrong, no picture perfect rides, no proper leg signals, no nothing. Take away all expectations of performance by horse and rider relax and work on building a new relationship and trust. A lot of this is pretty much what Christine was saying but without all the training stuff. If the rider is being subjected to constant appraisal by an ever present trainer, the problem could be that the correctness of technical riding skills is considered more important then the actual natural ability to ride and relate to a horse and what it is actually thinking and feeling. A nervous horse does not belong in this picture.

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 7, 2000 - 10:08 pm:

Actually, the rider rides only on the weekend and If I can I help her during one 1/2 hr lesson once per week. I primarily train hunters but the owner is interested in dressage. I use basic dressage on all my hunters. She goes on trail rides whenever the ground isn't too muddy or frozen. I don't care exactly how correct she is but this is beyond nervous. She is neurotic. I free longed this horse over fences the other day and roder her over a small fence and she was ok but she still won't trot once you have cantered without a lot of persistence. As a trainer, I only ride her once a week but I can only ask so much because of her fitness level. I agree that she should do something else but the owner is bound and determined to find a solution to her dilemma. It took me 1 and 1/2 year to get the owner to stop being a passenger and ride her horse. She was so tentative and insecure that she would nearly fall off at the slightest spook but she is sitting much better now and can handle the erratic ride that is offered her at this time. It is so hard to describe what the situation is like but I am doing the best I can.
Someone wanted to know what bit she was in, it is a straight flexible rubber bit. She will ride in a halter and lead but you can't show dressage in a hackamore so this was the next best bit we could find that she liked.
Thanks, does this affect your opinion?
Sheryl

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 7, 2000 - 10:11 pm:

PS, we did walk trot most of last year and as soon as we sarted back to canter, the problem came back. I was able to ride through it most of the time but she seems to be getting worse. In addition to the swelling in her jowl, she has big veins, like the veins under a lactating cow but not as big on her neck, could this indicate a circultation problem?
Sheryl

Posted on Thursday, Jun 8, 2000 - 12:03 pm:

Sheryl,

You last comments lead me to believe that the horse isn't getting ridden frequently enough and with a consistent enough method.

I would also dump the rubber straight bit in a moment and switch to something like a French link snaffle. It is too easy for the horse to lean on/pull through the straight bit, plus the rubber doesn't encourage salivation. Horses are clever, too. This one seems to have the rider's number and realizes she can run through the trot request.

Can your client put the horse in full training (5x's a week) with you for a month or two? Then, the transition back to her as a rider can come with very regular hour long lessons.

I think without the commitment to very consistent training every day for some time, your client is doomed to be disappointed with her relationship with this horse.

Cheers.

Posted on Saturday, Jun 10, 2000 - 3:34 pm:

I have tried a french link-she hates it. She doesn't lean or pull-she just is mentally a mess. I really wanted input from anyone who has tried prolixin or if anyone had used any other drugs with any success on a difficult horse. The owner absolutely can't afford to have the horse in full training and I frankly don't think that without a pharmaceutical aid that even everyday work would improve her ride-ability. She doesn't run through the trot, she just stops and hops up and down in a go nowhere canter rather than trot forward. I am almost thinking that the owner is addicted to the challenge or just is too stubborn to give up and sell her. I will follow up when the prolixin comes this week. The vet checked her out this past week and gave her a clean physical bill of health and watched the owner ride and thought that a anti-phsycotic drug may actually work on her. I will let everyone know.
Thanks
Sheryl

Posted on Thursday, Jun 15, 2000 - 1:18 pm:

Pay attention to Christine Mills June 8 comments. All of them are good. However, this advice is only as good as the person in charge of implimenting it.(I don't mean this in an insulting way) The solution to this horse is a different rider. Weekend riders help to create these problems and blame the horse and trainer. This rider will never gain the confidence or the skills needed to ride this horse. This horse requires a high level of rider empathy and relies heavily on the rider to get her through life while the rider seems to need to rely on the horse to do the same and both are failing miserably. This horse simply hasn't got the built in personality needed for this rider. You have made some pretty fair progress with the rider but if you think of the time scale involved, it may be working against the success of this horse, and eventually against the success of the rider as a rider. I also think that your feeling concerning the rider may be correct. I don't think its just the challenge though. It might be more of an easy cover-up for his/her fear of horses in general. I think you might have the feeling as well that this pair is a definite mis-match. There really isn't an easy answer for this rider although I hope he/she appreciates your considerable efforts to find one.
My daughter's mare is very much like this one. She is a great horse, but randomly developes fire crackers under her tail where there were none before. My daughter went from 0 riding skill to very experienced at reading this horses moods and doing damage control just before the fire works. All while constantly falling off (her first lessons were how to fall off safely) and learning to laugh in the face of adversity. She had to ride the horse or lose her. She learned to ride and now we have what amounts to a two person horse. This horse won't allow any one but myself and my daughter to handle her.(she was severely beaten, twitched and hobbled prior to this) She went from being a runaway to no bit pressure at all. She rides on weight signals. Even when the excitement suddenly gets out of control, she will come back down on gentle voice control.(meanwhile hang on) Use the reins and she will rear over backwards. When she is very nervous we must allow her to keep moving forward at a baby trot or she goes straight up (10 feet and she calms down). When you learn these things, you can manage the horse but you may not get the kind of ride you were originally hoping for when you chose your horse. The BUT to this horse is that she absolutely must get out of the barn every day without fail or her anxiety goes through the roof. She kicks the stall walls until they are cement rubble and her shoes fall off. She also needs a constant bit of something to nibble on and very regular worming. I have found over time that this keeps her much calmer than if she has to wait for meal times and listen to the other horse fussing about. Any ways this was just meant as an example for keeping a fruity horse ( it requires fruity people). I wouldn't be willing to give her up and neither would my daughter, but she also doesn't have a line-up of people waiting to buy her and some of the comments are not always flattering.
New Member:
Fabrice

Posted on Sunday, Oct 9, 2005 - 1:21 pm:

HI I'M FRENCH I'IM WRITIG FROM NORMANDY (150 KM FROM PARIS NO)NOBODY IS ABLE TO HELP ME MY MARE IS CRAZY AND AGRESSIVE WE ARE NOT ABLE TO LOOK HER STRAIGHT IN THE EYES IT DRIVES HER MAD SHE BEHAVE LIKE A STALLION SHE IS ALWAYS IN PERIODS I GAVE TO HER REGUMATE BUT SHE STILL CRAZY .WHITHOUT ANY REASON SHE IS ATTACKING EVERY DAY I HEARD FLUPHENAZINE MAY RESOLVE HER PROBLEM HER WEIGHT IS ABOUT 500KG CAN YOU HELP ME TO USE HER GIVE ME THE DOSAGE FOR FLUPHENAZINE THANKS A LOT
Member:
Angel77

Posted on Sunday, Oct 9, 2005 - 9:42 pm:

Bonjour Eyeere,

Comment t'aller vous? Fluphenazine worked like a charm for my 11yr old gelding while he was recovering from surgery. The vet told me Fluphenazine was for schizophrenia in humans. In horses it calms them down a lot.

Dr.O would know the exact amount to administer.

Good Luck,

WTG
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Sunday, Oct 9, 2005 - 11:03 pm:

Hello Eyerre. I just joined the site two weeks ago. You will love how everyone makes you feel welcome and the amount of horse knowledge gained from being a member is amazing. I hope you find a solution for your aggressive mare!

Take care,
Corinne
New Member:
Fabrice

Posted on Monday, Oct 10, 2005 - 1:35 am:

I IT'S ME AGAIN FABRICE .I WANT TO KNOW IF DR O COULD TELL ME THE AMOUNT TO ADMINISTER FOR MY MARE PLEASE ANSWER ME BY THANKS FOR ALL
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Oct 10, 2005 - 8:31 am:

First I would consider the possibility that this mare has a granulosa cell tumor see the article Equine Diseases » Reproductive Diseases » Trouble Settling Mares & Stallion Infertility »
Granulosa Cell Tumors in Mares.

If you rule this out and want to try fluphenazine see Equine Medications and Nutriceuticals » Sedatives & Anesthetics » Fluphenazine (Prolixin) for dosages and adverse reactions.
DrO
PS, 2 suggestions eyerre: You should not write in ALL CAPITAL letters. It is a bit harder to read and sort of equivalent to yelling. Proper caps and punctuation makes your posts easier to read and you get quicker and more responses. Second you should start your own discussions rather than posting at the bottom of other discussions. You will find the start new discussion button at the bottom of the list of discussions underneath each article. Again this will get you quicker and better responses.
New Member:
Fabrice

Posted on Monday, Oct 10, 2005 - 11:24 am:

Hi it's fabrice again.I whant to thank tou for your answer and Ihave to say that my vet looked after something with her ovary,but he did not find anything.When she's in periods she's quiet cool and easy to live with.I just can't ride on it because she always "piss" I'm sorry for my english but I'm french!!!!!!!!!
Since she was a foal she has a behaviour like a stallion and everybody is frightened by her.
You think I have to show her to my vet for her ovary???.
It's so nice to have somebody to talk with about this problem.
thanks for all
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 11, 2005 - 6:29 am:

Yes, the article above explains why simply palpating or even ultrasound visualization may not be enough to diagnose GCT if it is the problem.
DrO
Member:
Jeng

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 12, 2005 - 5:19 am:

Hi All,

I have found this entire discussion thread extremely interesting. I had a very similar experience myself a few years ago.
I bought a 3 yr old unbroken mare who we thought would be a Serious horse (amazing jump loose schooled). She was extremely easy to break, very quite and relaxed.

However when we hit spring and she came into season as a four year old all hell broke loose. She was a big mare anyway 17hh, but she started to bulk out and had an enormous stallion crest and displayed absolutely typical stallion behaviour.
She got progressively worse becoming entirely dangerous. Striking out when you came into the stable, ears constantly pinned back, kicking holes in stable walls etc etc. She was so bad that if she was turned out near any other horse in eye shot (even 2 fields away) she would stand with her back to anything handy and kick and squeal constantly. Under saddle she was constantly going up but striking out aggressively with her front feet.
The stable owner, who produces young horses for a living was completely bewildered, he had never seen anything like it and actually refused to ride her anymore as he was genuinely worried she would do damage.

We had everything done, she was palpated, blood tested, ultra-sound etc etc. we considered having the ovaries removed but the vet put her on regumate. Regumate made some difference but if you have your horse on it, take them off it for a day and you're back to square one. As someone else pointed out, it is extremely expensive for longterm use. Another person advised us to put her in foal to see if it calmed her down.

In the end we gave up and were lucky enough to be able to send her back to the originator (who did a lot of business with the yard). We never got to the bottom of it; I know they say that no horse is bad but this one made me reassess this opinion. As far as I was concerned she should have been put-down in order to ensure that she was never bred.

It put me off horses (which have been my life) for a year and really really put me off mares in general..for a while that is, I have one now.

Jen
New Member:
Fabrice

Posted on Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 - 11:06 am:

Hi everybody I asked to my vet what was done to my mare about GCT .He said to me that he tested her about her hormons and he said that everything was done and ok.regumate is not enough for her because she still on estrus when I jump.maybe to be pregnant is the final solution or removal of her ovaries.I don't know what can I do
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Oct 17, 2005 - 8:39 am:

As the article explains testing for GCT is not always a straight forward process. We would like to know which tests and what the results were and the normal values from your lab. If you are willing to experiment you could try long term sedative medications or have the mares ovaries removed and if that does not fix this, you should consider selling the mare with enough experience to deal with the problem.
DrO
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