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Discussion on Nasty mare
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New Member:
Donia
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 5:51 pm:
Dr O i have this beautiful 20 year old mare that my daughter would like to show. she is dead broke...but can be so nasty to other horses, giving shots, ear clipping, and especially the farrier. she is about 1200 lbs. can i do the oral ace granules and what would the does be. she is a stout mare. she hurts our farrier and kicks and him and other horses..i know some of this is behavioral, but i can give her her vaccines, or even worm her depending on what kind of mood she is in. i would like her "REALLY calm.
my other question is i have a pony that was abused. she is prob around 500 lbs. if she feels threatened she will strike, kick, i cannot spray her worm her, or again....trim her feet. she is very loving, but not trusting at all.. i have tried herbal rememiedies for nervousness ect...(valarian) it didnt help....please help me...
were can i get the ace granules...and what dose for my mare and pony...
thanks "desparate"
donia
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New Member:
Donia
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 5:54 pm:
i want to make it clear...i only want to use the ace for when i need it for farrier, vaccines ect...thanks again
donia
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 7:59 pm:
Hi Donia - Dr.O will obviously have to advise you regarding the Ace, but I was wondering if you have a good trainer in your area. It really sounds like you need to start from the very beginning with the pony especially, and maybe even with the mare, and work a lot on trust and manners, etc. with a lot of work on the ground. A good farrier is hard to find!
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New Member:
Donia
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 8:09 pm:
i have a excellent farrier...and there is no one in this area that will work with ponys but me...i have already broken my collar bone with her...i just want her to be safe and her feet done, and her vaccines wormer given on time ect.....the vet doesnt really want to mess with her...she was rescue case...im only keeping her because i know no one else would
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 8:59 pm:
What kind of training have you done/tried?
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 9:21 pm:
Bless you for taking on the pony. How long have you had her?
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New Member:
Donia
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Posted on Tuesday, Sep 12, 2006 - 9:42 pm:
i have had her for prob close to 5 years. i actually bought her from a sale, she was in the slaughter sale...i didnt need her, i bought her and her baby. the thing is...she is dead broke, she would make a experienced child a awesome barrel pony...but when it comes to trimming, vaccines stuff like that....she wigs...
i really need to get some things done...i am a RN and i work 12 hours...i spend as much time as i can with her..but there are 5 out there..not all need that kind of time. my dad used to help alot...he was a jockey, one of the top ten in the US and CANADA....he passed away from a brain anyuersym about 3 yrs ago...and i do this my self now...i was told by a fellow horse man that for my mare, about a finger tip of ace, im sure the pony is much less...i need to be sure. we dont have experienced horse vet in our area...last year my vet was killed in a motorcycle accident....sigh...
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 11:05 am:
Hi Donia,
Like Sara said, it sounds like to need to start from the very beginning with both horses. Treat them as horses who've never been touched before. Lots and lots of desensitization.
Can you pick up their feet at all without them flipping out?
And IMHO, a horse is NOT "dead broke" if it is so nasty that it breaks your collar bone, or won't let you do routine things around them (vaccines, worming, trims, etc.), no matter how good they are when you are on their back.
Nicole
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 5:55 pm:
cant help you on dosage amounts....
but remember, you may be dulling the CNS so that you can get done what you want to get done, but in no way are you helping the horse... some horses do occasionally improve after they've been drugged, but mostly they are just as bad, and if there comes a time when an emergency happens and you cant get them drugged fast enough, you wont have gotten anywhere...
you may also not be able to drug her enough to be able to safely do her feet if she's as bad as you say...
i'm sure you know that the best course is to restart with these horses, but based on the schedule you've described us you may not have the time to do it right...
do what you think is best for the situation you are in, but remember what the long term effects might be and be careful...
if you know the right people you may not need long at all to get your horses over their problems..
good luck
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Member:
Donia
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Posted on Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 - 7:39 pm:
melissa...you dont know how much i appreciate the kind reply...the 20 yr old has always been nasty and mareish...i have owned her since day one. for what ever reason she is worse with men. i can do just about what ever i want to with her. she is a great western pleasure horse, showmanship ect....but she can just be down right nasty...it has nothing to do with me not working with her....plus she just has this thing for men..
now the pony on the other hand like i said in the previous post...i took her in due to previous abuse, i work with her when i can and she as come along way.
i almost didnt look at this email, wasnt sure what it might read. but i paid for this discussion group so i might as well read the posts any way...
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 8:09 am:
Hi Donia, and welcome to HA. Keep in mind we are an opinionated bunch, especially me, right folks? But everyone truly does try to help each other.
Like Melissa, I am concerned that the ace won't necessarily do what you are hoping it will do. A horse can seem well sedated and then WHAM!
There is some dangerous behavior here, and you have already been injured. Please don't dismiss the retraining issue without careful consideration. We'd hate to lose a new member!
One other thought, if you have no vet available to answer your ace question, how do you go about getting the actual drug? I think it is prescription only.
Be careful, and good luck.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 9:15 am:
Hello Donia,
You do not need to find the granules as the injectable can be placed on the food and horses eat it well. The article gives this recommendation and dosages. Usually the upper end is required for oral dosing but you will have to experiment for optimum dose. We have an article on dealing with aggression in horses, see Training Horses » Behavioral Problems » Aggression in Horses.
DrO
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 10:18 am:
Donia, please don't take our comments as "mean spirited." I, for one, am only telling you what has worked in my experience.
However, I've also had the experience of equines you couldn't handle, like a wild burro we adopted and her foal. There was no way anyone was going to be able to trim, vaccinate, etc. the burro no matter whose training methods they used. I remember our farrier at the time was very critical of me because I couldn't get a halter on her. He'd just been to a John Lyons clinic. He told me to give him the halter and he'd have it on her in 10 mins. He went in the stall with the old burro and had me shut the door behind him but not latch it. He lasted in there about 30 seconds. As he came running through the door he said he understood now why I didn't have her halter broke! We had to give her so much sedative (don't remember which one) that she was down flat. I'd hold her head, my husband would tie her feet, the vet would vaccinate her while the farrier trimmed her feet. All this had to be done in about 10 mins., because that's how long the sedatives would last on her. Hopefully, your pony isn't this bad!!
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Member:
Vickiann
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 9:15 pm:
From what I know about ACE, horses can still kick mightily when give this tranquilizer. I have a gelding who is horrible for sheath cleaning. He was given 4 - 5 doses of Ace and two of Rompon (or was it the other way around?) and could still kick just fine. The next morning he was still groggy but he never quit the kicking. We needed three people to clean his sheath anyway. I don't think Rompon or ACE is good for keeping a horse from kicking. There are some newer tranquilizers that are MUCH better but are to be handled with a lot of care. (same with ROMPON) Your Vet may or may not trust you and your farrier to administer it without him/her being present. Mine sold me a dose of it recently for shoeing a horse with a tender (abscessed) foot. We did not end up needing it, but it was good to know we could accomplish the task by using it if absolutely necessary. (IV was best with the drug, but IM was okay though slower to act) Sara -- enjoyed your description. The equines are all individuals, aren't they?
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Member:
Paul303
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Posted on Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 - 10:33 pm:
Donia: Your farrier might know what to do as far as drugs....he's probably encountered troublesome horses at some time in his career. I can't believe you lost your vet like that!
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New Member:
Ladycfp
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 6:22 am:
It is easy for me to sit here and say, please don't drug your horse. It sounds like they are full of fear and have obvious trust issues that could possibly be solved given time and patience, and you sound like you are spread pretty thin. I do feel comfortable saying if you feel you must medicate a horse in order to work with it, this is not a horse for your daughter, although you don't say how old she is. We can't know what has happened to make this horse act this way, but it has formed ideas and responses based on history and for the behavior to change, you have to demonstrate that you are not trying to hurt it, that you are a trusted leader. This cannot happen overnight and it cannot happen with a syringe, there is really no shortcut to this foundation work. Good luck and stay safe.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 6:44 am:
It is the xylazine that you need to be careful with respect to kicking. Kicking is actually worse with this drug, see the article on xylazine for more on this. Acepromazine will decrease the propensity to kick but you should not ever assume any standing horse can not kick.
I disagree with some of Anne's analysis above. Horses often establish behaviors as described by Donia, not out of fear, but aggressive behaviors initiated out of a desire to control the environment and are rewarded. Horses full of fear are not usually dependable under saddle as described about the horses above. However I do agree with her completely when she says these are not horses for children to be around and while the sedatives will get you through difficult short procedures they are not a good substitute for training and in this case retraining of these horses. Many horses with such aggressive behaviors respond well to having good behavior carefully rewarded to reshape the way a horse thinks about the situation, see Training Horses » Training Your Horse's Mind » Modifying a Horses Behavior: Conditioned Responses.
DrO
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New Member:
Ladycfp
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 10:03 am:
If only they could talk! I only mention the fear aspect because one of our mare's had a history similar to what you describe (without the aggression toward other horses though) and she was also well behaved under saddle. I am theorizing (but aren't we all to some extent?) that it was at least partially worsened by our attitude toward HER on the ground. She scared my daughter and me- and I just think she picked up on that and then it became a dominance game. You know, if she had confidence in us, she wouldn't have to go there, though, or at least she wouldn't KEEP going there, trying to dominate. That's why I just don't think it was more than her fear and lack of trust in us at the beginning (she was new to us) and we mishandled it. It was aggravated by an aggressive farrier who in my opinion handled her roughly, but he would say he was being firm I am sure. I think in the saddle we had more confidence in ourselves (hey- she couldn't kick or bite us once we were on her!) that she also picked up on, again pure speculation. We have really focused on a lot of groundwork, changed farriers, started from scratch with her almost. I won't say we are 100% there- she is a challenge no doubt- but we are making progress. She is displaying more curiosity, less aggressive behavior on the ground (and we have tools now to keep her out of our space when she goes there) and things are improving. We also agreed that until she is safe on the ground, WE are not safe in the saddle. Your mileage may vary, of course.
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Friday, Sep 15, 2006 - 10:38 pm:
I have a QH mare that I have had since April and she was unhandled. I have just recently found a more experienced person to give her a home but I wanted to tell you my experience. I had to get a vet to give her a high dose of some kind of sedative that started with a D I think. Anyway it was strong as heck and we put her in a shute so she couldn't move too much. She still kicked the farrier and caused a lot of havoc. I mean her head was hung and she till kicked. I'm lucky that I found a home for her because she was too much for me that's for sure. Anyway good luck and I don't envy you I know what you are going through.
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Member:
Donia
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Posted on Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 - 12:34 pm:
i have been working so i havent been on in a few days. just wanted to say...the 20 year old mare...i have had her since birth..and she has not always been this nasty...she is not scared...she is just nasty...but..has not always been that way. its easy to give comments when you think i just want to drug her...i have worked with her ect...and she is not the one that broke my collar bone...it was the pony. i lunge this mare every morning she prob gets rode 4 times per week. she is handled on a daily basis she just doesnt like procedures, farrier...ect..this has never changed its nothing new...i was trying to find another way for this not to be so stressful for the both of us. i have had the vet out for other things that could possible cause her behaviour was just looking for suggestions from fellow horseman. i am not new with being around horses....i was probably riding before i learned to walk..
thanks for all of the advice ect..
donia
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Member:
Jockyrdg
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Posted on Monday, Sep 18, 2006 - 8:07 am:
Hello Donia; Sounds like you've looked into all the medical and enviromental factors with an open mind. New things are being discovered and new theories promoted everyday, so keep your search light on. 2 wild - pie in the sky- nothing to lose- ideas. You mentioned the mare was a great barrel racer; does she behave any calmer or worse when off property and someplace new? Might help you zero in on physical, mental, dominance, anger, etc. Second thought - I had a friend who's horse was very sensitive to smells, hated perfumes etc, and many vets mention their smell as being a factor to the horse reacting before they put a hand on them. Have you ever tried putting vicks around her nostrils, or, with todays modern direction, a lavender cream. This is nothing I've read about, I just have experienced some horses being much more upset by smells than we realize, and many old experienced hands have the vicks in the cupboard just for this reason. If you do decide to play, I'd put the "smell" cream around her nose first just to make sure that it doesn't upset her by itself, and just a little, then try it with the vet or farrier. 'Course they have eyes too which brings up another pie-in-the sky idea. Endurance people will hold their hands over the horse's eye to reduce it's heart rate. (yes, it is against the rules) and some of the fire info on horses suggest putting a towel over their eyes as they freak out less not being able to see and only dependant on the handler. I've seen some old time professional haulers load stubborn studs with towels over their eyes, the handlers are very calm and soothing when handling the horse in this situation as well. Some thoughts to consider, but proceed cautiously with safety in mind if any are worth trying.
Men- hmm, take a deli ticket- so many horses have bad associations in their mind, even if we never saw it or interpreted it that same way.
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Member:
Donia
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Posted on Monday, Sep 18, 2006 - 9:48 am:
the pony is the barrel racer...my mare the 20 year old is the pleasure horse. she is dependable under saddle if that makes any sense. i can pick her feet up and work with her ect...but she doesnt like shots, worming ect...the farrier doesnt work well with her either. yesterday i did manage to give her her vaccine, and wormer her, it took me for ever but i did get it done. i am a bit sore. i cannot work with both the mare and pony with my schedule. with the mare i dont think its a smell thing...i think its just she doesnt like the farrier, and puts up a fight the whole way...i will try the fix tho...i plan to try and lunge her for a bit before the farrier this time. he is coming thurs...dont know what else to do. i am sore from wrestling with her. and of course...she stands best when i hold her. im only 4"7' taking after my fathers stature who was a jockey...sigh...i cant give up on her, she is a one owner horse...thanks for your info i will try the aroma therapy....
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