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  Discussion on Is there a point when Bute no longer works?
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New Member:
Razzle

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 10:48 am:

Hello Doctor, our horse is suffering with a bout of laminitis. It seems he is less lame when off the bute than on. Is this possible? He was on 2 grams of bute 2x daily for about three days and was very sore and lame. I discontinued the bute for 24 hours before the first vet came out to look at him, and he was remarkably less lame. That vet said he was not foundering. Actually, he was and still is. To make a very long story short, he went back on the bute with instructions from three other vets and it did not seem to help. I was instructed to try to reduce his bute for obvious reasons, so he had only one gram 24 hours ago, and right now, he is more comfortable than he was previously. What do you think of this?
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 12:01 pm:

Hi Deborah , why did one vet say he was not foundering when he was. Curious
Katrina
New Member:
Razzle

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 1:50 pm:

He is a very tough horse, and the vet told me there was not a strong enough digital pulse and not enough heat in the foot. I know him, because I check his pulses each morning and again in the evening when he comes in. He is a chronic laminitis guy and I knew it was too much for him. Anyway, he has had issues with the application of the NBS shoes and sole pressure and the vet told me to have him reset because he thought that was the problem. I did and the problem remained so I called again and the other vet from that same office came out and told me he was foundering and that having him reshod was the worst thing I could have done to him. He was very angry and rude to me. He left with no instructions other than bute and stall rest. I had to call the following morning because he was worse, and he was rude again and told me to have his shoes put on backward. I did, but decided they didn't want my business because I don't have a barn full of horses or 1500 cows to vaccinate. I searched around for another vet to come out and put him down. When he got here he thought we might be able to save him. But he has sunk and has only 4 millimeters of sole left with no circulation. That is less than 1/16th of an inch. He is on ace to dilate his veins and pads with thick bedding. I am very upset at these other vets. They have been treating my horses for 11 years but I guess they don't really care all that much.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 3:23 pm:

How terrible for you Deborah. And that you have known these vets for such a long time.


My horse also chronically foundered last year. The vet kept telling me it must be an abscess because my horse didn't have heat or an increased digital pulse either.

After months of no abscess I had him x-rayed and he had some rotation. My horse had a very tough time of it and I almost put him down several times - his quality of life seemed so poor sometimes. He was on Bute for a long time and he did have a few weird days of being remarkably better in between being terribly sore and abscessing 3 out of 4 feet - one front foot 4 times.

I did find a farrier that specialized in founder trimming - $50/trim! He was very careful and patient and now my horse is sound.

It may be that the withdrawal of the Bute was coincidental with him having a good day.

My horse didn't have nearly the rotation yours has, but my farrier has a lot of stories of terrible founders that were able to recover.

Best of luck.
New Member:
Randall

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 3:29 pm:

Bute question: I found two bottles of expired bute tabs. One expired 3/98 and the other in 1/01. Are the tabs worthless for med purposes? Less in effectivness (if so does one tab now equal 2, 3, or?) Are they harmful to the horses?
Member:
Canter

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 4:16 pm:

I wouldn't use expired meds, particularly ones as old as yours. Some meds lose effectiveness (probably at different rates, depending on heat, humidity, etc exposure) and some actually become harmful, although I can't say this is true of bute. I wouldn't risk it.
New Member:
Razzle

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 7:14 pm:

Hi Linda, yes this is pretty bad, I just hope I will know if the time comes and not make him suffer more.
I think you may be right about the bute withdrawal, because I had to put him back on it today because he got so bad again.
My guy's quality of life is pretty poor too. He had rotation that corrected itself over the years, but the sinking is different. I wonder if this founder may be coming from a different source since much of the time there is not a lot of heat or pulse. Without a doubt, this is not like anything I have dealt with before. It was 10 years ago that he first foundered and this is the worst. I cannot seem to get it under control. Thank you though for the encouragement.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, Sep 29, 2006 - 7:58 pm:

Welcome Deborah,
Let's cover your direct question first, the difference you saw was part of the up and down nature that sometimes happens with founder. Without the bute the horse would have been worse and when you discontinued and the horse seemed better, he would have been even better if still on the bute. Remember bute is therapeutic not just a pain reliever so should be continued.

For more on treating founders see, Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis but I want you to pay particular attention to the causes, if you can identify the cause and correct it you will be way ahead of the game.
DrO
PS: absolutely no on the very old bute. Its cheap and if you really need to treat something, best do it with something you know is effective.
New Member:
Razzle

Posted on Saturday, Sep 30, 2006 - 10:00 am:

Thanks Doctor. I have not been able to pin point the cause of the problem this time. He has an acre turnout, not much grass, and wears a grazing muzzle at all times when out of his stall. I have been doing some research on the sugar content of weeds and stressed pastures, that may be a factor even with the muzzle.
Also, earlier this year, I had some questions for my vet about his nutritional needs, and both vets told me I should put him on Ultium by Purina. I did so, but didn't feel confident about that because of his condition. I spoke with a Purina Associate, and it was decided that Purina Born to Win would be a better choice for him. It contains all the vitamins needed for a horse that gains weight on air and water like him. Even so, I never gave him more than 1 to 1 1/2 pounds per day. I weigh all his food and his hay is Triple Crown Chopped Forage (chopped timothy) I recently switched to Triple Crown Safe Starch which is low NSC chopped timothy and orchard grass with vitamins and minerals added.
Maybe it was a slow accumulation of the Born to Win in his system. He is not overweight, he is actually a little underweight at this time. He has a cresty neck. I was concerned about cushings and the vet was reluctant to test him because of his laminitis, so we did the blood glucose tests and I collected urine samples but nothing indicated cushings. We had planned to retest in the fall but now this. The current new vet does not think he looks like a cushings horse. I do think the other vets are tired of me. All I want to do is keep my horses healthy and happy and hopefully have them live a long life. I only call them to float teeth or in an emergency when they can't travel to the office. Otherwise, I haul them in.

P.S. I think this discussion is turning from bute to laminitis, should I post elsewhere?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Oct 1, 2006 - 10:41 am:

No I would stay here where we have the background. How old is this horse and how do the feet look radiographically? AS recommended in the above article the horse should be off all concentrates. Often chronic founders have recurrent problems because of the changes of the position of the coffin bone with respect to the wall and the sole. Review some of these ideas in Diseases of Horses » Lameness » Diseases of the Hoof » Founder & Laminitis » Rehabilitation and Derotation of Foundered Horses.
DrO
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Monday, Oct 2, 2006 - 10:35 am:

Hey Deborah,

My farrier is adamant that my horse foundered because of the way he had been trimmed for a long time - a very high heel. And that is why it was a chronic founder - it was a mechanical founder. My horse was normal weight at the time with no signs of Cushings. So I am wondering how your horse is trimmed? Maybe it isn't metabolic?

Can you post photos?

My horse was 18 yrs old at the time. I was very worried about what all the drugs would do to his liver and kidneys, but when they are in so much pain you don't have much choice.

He was on Bute twice a day and I would sometimes have to give him some Banamine too just to make him barely comfortable. He got very muscle sore from standing in weird positions and rocking back on his haunches to relieve the pressure on his front feet. I gave him Robaxin sometimes and a full body massage. That seemed to help a lot for a short time.

I gave myself a time limit and told myself if he didn't improve within that time I would put him down.

He was so sore every time he got trimmed that the farrier finally stopped taking off the toe and just took of heel and balanced the foot. We let his toe break off how and when it wanted to. His feet looked terrible and I got many strange looks. But he was much more sound that way.

Thankfully he did slowly improve and is now a happy, sound horse. The damage in one front foot hasn't quite grown out, but the other one looks almost normal.

Am thinking healing thoughts your way.
Member:
Sjeys

Posted on Monday, Oct 2, 2006 - 11:47 am:

Linda,
Yes, it takes some doing, but by not trimming for a long time, or trimming so poorly, you can cause what they call a mechanical founder. Imagine a very long toe and the pressure put on it when the horse walks. I'm sure there are other ways to cause a mechanical founder as far as incorrect heel height it concerned, etc, but I'm not going to pretend to be a farrier. Ouch! Luckily, I've only seen this on horses who just weren't trimmed for ages. Usually someone will spot it before it happens and tell you the horse is trimmed really poorly. But maybe this one was harder to see...to my limited understanding, the mechanical founder really does take some poor or no trimming over an extended amount of time. Maybe Dr. O will weigh in and educate us.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Monday, Oct 2, 2006 - 2:40 pm:

Well, Susan I did battle with this problem for years with various farriers. My vet came out to conference with the farrier many times and even ended up trimming my horse's front feet himself a few times.

After I retired my horse I did (guilt here) get more complacent about the way he was trimmed. He was trimmed every 5-6 weeks and I always ask the farrier to take off more heel. But even though I didn't like the way he was trimmed I couldn't get another farrier to come to the farm for just one horse.

His feet looked like so many you see posted on HA. A long under-run heel - some flare on the sides. But certainly not a trimming job that you would gasp and think looked neglected and terrible - we had a whole farm full of horses trimmed the same way! And he was sound until he started getting a little sore and stayed that way. He never did get heat in his feet or a pounding digital pulse.

Why did he founder and no one else did when they were all getting trimmed the same? Probably a lot of reasons. His age, his conformation, his tolerance. I don't know.

We do have a mini tease pony whose heels and toe were extremely long and never changed no matter how much I ask the farrier. We have changed farriers for him too and he looks 100% better. After the experience with my horse, I was terribly afraid he would founder as well if we didn't get his feet changed.

Unfortunately, the "good" farrier is expensive and we can't have him do all the horses. He does the show horse, the young horses, and any problem horses. We have the "broodmare" farrier still doing the rest. We just watch him much more closely.
New Member:
Razzle

Posted on Monday, Oct 2, 2006 - 4:50 pm:

Hello Linda and Susan, yes he has had the same issues with the long toes and under run heels. In June 05 I went through the mill with my farrier and vet also who treated me like I just had an "old foundered horse" and there was nothing that could or should be done. I finally gave up on them and took him to the University of Tennessee and their farrier hit the nail on the head almost immediately. He shod him in a natural balance shoe with a "floated" toe. My guy left dancing. It was that dramatic. He had sole pressure and contracted heels from improper shoe placement, long toes and 3 years of equithane. I changed farriers and have been pleased with the new guy. He won't come out to the "Boonies" so that means I have to haul him every six weeks but it has been worth it. I wish so much right now that I had taken him back to UT when he was still able to travel. It sometimes takes a month to get in and I thought this farrier could do the job by resetting him, which the vet told me to have done. It may be mechanical. I plan to take him (and my farrier) either back to UT or Virginia Tech (My new vet suggested Virginia Tech because he knows the doctors there)if and when he gets a little stable. One is 2 1/2 hours away, and the other is four hours away. He cannot stand up for any length of time and I don't want to put him through that. Anyway, like I stated earlier, I was chewed out by the first vet's partner for having him reset in his condition, and told it was the worst thing I could have done to him. He would not even consider that the other vet told me to have it done. I know I keep harping on that, but I cannot believe that by respecting a professional's opinion I could do so much damage to my poor horse.
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Monday, Oct 2, 2006 - 5:06 pm:

Hello Doctor, I tried to respond to you last evening, but was exhausted and fell asleep at the computer!
Radiographically the feet do not have much rotation any more. No more than a few degrees. Less than 5. I was told at one time that he had 9 degrees in both feet. As of last Wednesday, he had sunk straight down and had 4 millimeters of sole remaining. A Venogram was done and he had no circulation except for a little around the coronary band and some in the heel.
He is off all concentrates, I am soaking his chopped forage also in case there is more sugar I can wash out. And that way he gets some extra water in case he can't drag himself to his tub for a drink.
I was giving him all his bute in one dose every 24 hours, and my vet wanted me to divide it into two doses, but when I did he was in constant pain day and night. So he said to go back to the 24 hour dose and he seems a little better today. He gets bad at about the 20 hour mark, but that is better than constant agony in my mind. He also gets 1cc of ace every 8 hours.
I loved the article about derotation. I think I need to take him to a university to get a nice job like that done.
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Monday, Oct 2, 2006 - 5:22 pm:

Dr., I forgot to mention that he is 21 years old and has a strong will and a big, big heart.
Member:
Chance1

Posted on Monday, Oct 2, 2006 - 5:27 pm:

Hi All,

A horse I am caring for is in the same situation as those in this discussion. The vet is coming today to take another set of radiographs to see if there has been any further rotation. My vet has prescribed Viagra to improve the circulation to the feet and it seems to be working. He got 200 mg 2 times a day for the first week, now we're at 100 mg 2 times a day for a week then 100 mg one time a day for one more week. It's not cheap, but if it works, it will be worth every penny! At first I thought my vet was kidding, but it does make sense. Luckily the horse is a gelding and since he doesn't have sex on his mind, the blood is going to the right places..We hope!! This horse's toes are also extremely long and will be corrected. I'll let you know how it goes.
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Monday, Oct 2, 2006 - 8:21 pm:

Hey everyone, thank you all for your posts. They are very comforting. Sounds like we are all in somewhat the same situation. You guys are all sweet. I'm glad I posted my troubles to the Advisor!
He is having a much better day today. Your healing thoughts are working, Linda
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Monday, Oct 2, 2006 - 8:23 pm:

I'm forgetful. I have to go take care of my buddy. But, yes, I can post pictures and will round some up.
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 3, 2006 - 10:00 pm:

Hi Ruth, how did it go with the vet and the horse you are taking care of?
Hope things are looking better for him.
The vet is coming out in the morning to look at our gelding. It does not look promising. His first founder was from grain. But mechanical sounds quite possible. There are a lot of factors and I think we lost this battle.
Member:
Chance1

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 3, 2006 - 11:42 pm:

Hi Deborah,
Things are going well with Legs. He's on his second week of Viagra, 100 mg 2 times per day, plus 2 gms of bute twice a day and we have him on styrofoam pads and he's finally doing better. The vet took a second set of radiographs on Monday, but I haven't heard the results yet. He will be getting shoes on Thursday, weather permitting.

I hope you're wrong about your guy and that's he shows some improvement. Keep us posted and I'll do the same.

We'll be keeping positive thoughts for you both.
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 4, 2006 - 12:15 am:

How much does he weigh? My vets don't want Cimarron to have more that 3grams per day. The first time he foundered he was on 2 grams twice per day. I have usually stuck by that and reduced accordingly. He cannot get very much relief this time.
He is a paso fino and weights about 750, he did weigh more the first time, he was overweight.
Member:
Chance1

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 4, 2006 - 9:57 am:

Hi Deborah,
Legs weighs about 1100 lbs and he's a 24 year old Arab/Saddlebred cross. This is the third time he's foundered. He's not overweight,but his toes, based on the radiographs, are extremely long. There's about 1.5 inches between the toe and the tip of the coffin bone. The previous vet did not show the farrier any xrays, so he had no way of knowing.

Our thoughts are with Cimarron.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 4, 2006 - 10:20 am:

Ruth, other than the long toes how are the heels? A high heel can be as bad as the long toe.

Am thinking my best thoughts for the two of you and your horses. As caretakers we get the joy of companionship and the heart break of making the tough decisions.
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 4, 2006 - 11:07 am:

Hello and thank you all for your kind words and thoughts. Cimarron is in a better place now. I thought I had the mechanical issue licked with the new farrier but now I am not so certain. All is hind site now.
His soles were cracking and the bone was ready to come through. He was strong and brave always, He never lost his will to eat! He was still calling to me every time I opened the front door. So strong it was hard to see how sick he was. I know he's pain free now.
Thanks everyone, I will be praying for your guys.
Member:
Chance1

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 4, 2006 - 11:44 am:

Deborah,
I'm so sorry for your loss, but I'm glad Cimarron is in a painfree place. I know he appreciates all your love and all you did for him. They are truly amazing friends we have.

Linda, Legs heels are just a bit high and the plan is take some of the heel away when he is shod. I'll let you know what they end up deciding on the shoeing.

Again, Deborah, our thoughts are with you.
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 4, 2006 - 11:45 am:

So sorry to hear the sad news, Deborah. You have my deepest sympathy.

Sue
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 4, 2006 - 2:02 pm:

Deborah,
Very sorry for your loss of Cimarron. I'm glad that he is out of pain now. How long had you owned him?
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 4, 2006 - 6:11 pm:

Hi Linda, he has been with us for 18 years. We will miss him terribly. He has been through a lot in his life and he was a fighter. We were buddies. We have one more horse, a mare, and we raised her from the first day. We get attached.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Thursday, Oct 5, 2006 - 8:35 am:

My condolences also Deborah.
DrO
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, Oct 5, 2006 - 9:16 am:

Thinking of you and your family, Deborah. Many of us know the grief of losing a horse we've had for years and years. You are in good company.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Thursday, Oct 5, 2006 - 9:45 am:

Deborah, in this age of horses going "down the road" so frequently, Cimarron was a lucky guy. To have one, loving home for 18 years is a blessed life.
Member:
Lilo

Posted on Thursday, Oct 5, 2006 - 12:27 pm:

My condolences, Deborah. You know you did the best you could for your good friend, including not prolonging his suffering.
Lilo
Member:
Savage

Posted on Thursday, Oct 5, 2006 - 4:24 pm:

Oh Deborah, I am so sorry to hear about your best friend. Go to your mare, she will help you get through this.
Member:
Paul303

Posted on Thursday, Oct 5, 2006 - 11:51 pm:

So very special our horses are to us.....they bring an enhanced richness to the times of our lives. We live with them in a parallel world to which we run when our required time in the "normal" world is done for the day. We "switch worlds" as soon as we breathe in the scent, and our fingers press a stiff brush to a dust covered rump. In contrast to the countless hours we bask in this nurturing, satisfying environment....death is but an eyeblink. It's pain is not deserving of consideration. Our horses are about our joy and the privilege of moving between two worlds. There is no obligation to accept the pain...on the contrary, we owe it to our horses to never allow the sorrow at their passing to mar the astounding experience of sharing their life.
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Friday, Oct 6, 2006 - 9:38 am:

Thank you everyone, Even though I feel so awful, thoughts of him still make me smile.
He was buried facing the east and at the very moment he was lowered, the sun came up over the ridge and it was beautiful. I bet that's when he bolted and ran into the light happy and pain free.
He was the kind of horse lots of people search for and never find. He was mine for 18 years and I have been blessed.
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Friday, Oct 6, 2006 - 10:32 am:

Deborah, your discription of Cimmeron bolting towards the light brought tears to my eyes. I'm sure that's just what he did. I know how much you miss him. Remember him with joy.
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Friday, Oct 6, 2006 - 11:35 am:

Lee, that was beautifully said.
Member:
Green007

Posted on Friday, Oct 6, 2006 - 12:05 pm:

That is so true, Lee! I love and even need the escape that the horse world has to offer.
Member:
Ilona

Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 3:42 pm:

Deborah,
To loose a friend is so hard. I just had to euthenize our one horse, she was 11, chronic lower wringbone and bute was no longer helping. She was alive for me and that was not kind. It was an agonizing decision, but I had to have the courage to make it. I took to "Out of Africa Wild-life Park" We all said goodbye to her and thanked her for the gifts her life had given us. She gently fell, and her last gift was to feed the lions. So now I can go to that park and see those beautiful cats and say hello to Pistania for she is part of their body now. That is how nature works, it is the natural order of things. She will be in our hearts for-ever.
Member:
Djws

Posted on Sunday, Oct 8, 2006 - 8:57 pm:

Deborah,
May your memories be many, and your sorrows be few. My heart goes out to you, and your family. Yes, you have been blessed, and so was Cimarron. He is now running (pain free) in good company!
Member:
Razzle

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 11, 2006 - 8:23 am:

You have all been so helpful to me. Thank you. I miss him so much. He would always look for me and let out a big hearty winnie to let me know he was there. Even to the last day. It's very quiet now. Thank you all.
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