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  Discussion on Irish draught sires
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Member:
Imogen

Posted on Saturday, Dec 16, 2006 - 2:58 pm:

This message is for Catherine McCourt unless anyone else would like to contribute...

Catherine, I know you are a fan of Glenagyle Rebel and that you bred Special K, his most successful offspring in showjumping terms and also that the famous Suma Stud was very keen on Glenagyle blood.

I am just trying to decide what to do with my Cavalier mare next year. She needs RID blood because she's a looper (cos her dam's sire was Campaigner) - so it needs to be a lightish RID sire with good showjumping genes and brilliant temperament. I have a nice Grange Bouncer filly using that theory...

I was dithering between Coille Mor Hill because I'm totally sick of greys and at least I'd get a black or a bay then, or if a grey then Huntingfield Rebel.

But then a neighbour was telling me about Coolcronan Wood (by Seacrest out of Augusta's Vintage, dam's sire Glenagyle Rebel) and he's a lot closer to us than Ballinasloe - have you heard anything about Coolcronan Wood /considered him yourself (unfortunately grey...)?

No performance/offspring track record for Coolcronan Wood, and genetic evaluation in the stallion book is lowish on temperament. Just wondered if you had any thoughts... it doesn't matter if you don't.

Imogen
Member:
Kstud

Posted on Sunday, Dec 17, 2006 - 12:50 pm:

Hi Imogen,
I do not know anything about Coolcronan Wood at all and I would not recommend Huntingfield Rebel either as he is not a patch on his sire. If it helps the Draught sires we use are Glidawn Diamond (fantastic movement and jump, good temperament), Coolcorran Cool Diamond is also fantastic but he may be classified as a sport horse BUT you will get a bay and they are very very athletic but kind. Sir Rivie is a lovely lovely horse too and Powerswood Purple has bred a lot of nice horses with sweet temperaments but they may be grey.
Mind you Coolcronan Wood is well bred and looks a nice type!
Coille Mor Hill is a good horse but he is very strong and rather ugly! He is also supposed to be inbred but I cannot verify that, but I have seen some nice foals by him but my gut feeling would be that with the foreign breeding in your mare that you could end up with something with huge joints and a huger head by him. If this is her first foal I would not cover her with a draught anyway as I have seen mares and foals lost that way. If she is a maiden I would go to a small thoroughbred first and see what that foal is like then you can pick stallions for her based on how much bone she brings. We foal a lot of mares here and I see so many monster foals and damaged mares because foreign and draught blood do not mix with some mares.
Hope that helps, my email is kstud@eircom.net,
love Catherine
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Sunday, Dec 17, 2006 - 6:52 pm:

Thanks Catherine as RID breeding is a minority interest on Horseadvice I'll email you!

All the best

Imogen
Member:
Canderso

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 10:17 am:

Noooo! Please post!!!

Catherine and Imogen, I am very interested... I would also like some advice as I am thinking that it might be a neat idea to get a decent ID mare and bring her back to Canada to try and make some sensible eventers for regular (i.e., not professional) riders.

Some advice on breeding lines would be very appreciated! (Yes, I know to go for King of Diamonds, but these days, that doesn't exactly narrow down the field.) Catherine, if I remember correctly you are near Mullingar. If you know any reputable breeders in the area, towards Cavan, I would appreciate advice too.
Member:
Kstud

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 19, 2006 - 5:17 pm:

Hi Cheryl,
Would be glad to help. Whenever you are looking give me a call with more specific details of what you would like and I will put you in touch with reputable breeders. I like Ben Purple bloodlines, Sea Crest, Glenagyle Rebel, Glidawn Diamond, Sir Rivie, RNE Shore, Ginger Dick, Blue Henry to name a few!
Catherine
Member:
Canderso

Posted on Friday, Dec 22, 2006 - 10:05 pm:

Thanks Catherine. I have heard of/done a bit of research on all those lines except RNE Shore. I keep hearing good things about Glidawn Diamond... but back to the stud and mare books for me, I guess!

I really do appreciate your any help you can give; Imogen, thanks again for your advice to check out Silver Granite babies - I continue to be thrilled with Gregory.

Imogen- have you made any decisions?
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 3:42 am:

Cheryl the big problem is that even not-particularly-special RID filly foals are now commanding very high prices. Check out the adverts at https://www.irishdraught.ie ... which also has a very useful gallery of pictures of RID sires old and new.

I like Grange Bouncer for temperament as you know. Not enough of his offspring are really old enough to tell whether he is throwing jumping ability too or just temperament but William Micklem, BHS Fellow, was recommending him as the "next big thing" at IHB sport horse breeding seminars last year and he was originally recommended to me by Norman Storey of Kildalton Agricultural College which has a fantastic record of RID breeding.

I like most Pride of Shaunlara line animals but not all jump, you really need to spend some time looking through the Stallion book (downloadable from https://www.ihb.ie ) to spot that. eg in the non-jumping corner, Fast Silvers look lovely and don't jump, similarly Red Hackles. I have seen some super Red Hackles for dressage and their temperament is also generally good. Fast Silvers do well at showing.

Welcome Diamond has a good reputation around here. I didn't like him when I went to look at him about 5 years ago but the foals are doing well so don't listen to me! Ditto as emailed separately to Catherine, I do not like Coolcorran Cool Diamond but I am clearly wrong since they are doing well (but of course once a stallion does well, they get good mares, then the performance record improves and so on...).

Sea Crests can be strong in the neck and temperamental though clearly the jumping gene passes well, otherwise I think all Catherine's recommendations are good. When reading the stallion book, I think it is worth bearing in mind that the really successful sires (and these examples are non-RID) like Ballinvella and Cavalier produce lots and lots of amateur level horses with 5-20 jumping points as well as the highly successful offspring. Never forget 90% of the market is riding club/amateur riders not the major showjumping/eventing successes.

Glad to hear Gregory's turned out well for you! I'm turning towards Glidawn Diamond myself but haven't yet heard back from Norman Storey whether he is standing at Kildalton next year or not. Or what the fee will be if he is!

Best wishes

Imogen
Member:
Canderso

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 2:52 pm:

Thanks Imogen. Yes, Gregory has been a dream come true. He really does it all, and happily.

Interesting comment about Cavalier- any Cavalier baby I have seen has been a beautiful mover, wonderful jumper ... and crazy. Boy are they pretty, though! But we have lots of horses over here that fit that profile... so I am not sure a Cavalier line gives me any differentiation. I am thinking temperament is probably the key element.

I have noticed the price jump for mares as well -heavy sigh...

Thanks again!
Cheryl
Member:
Imogen

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 7:08 pm:

Cavalier was a Holsteiner (though actually half Selle Francais...) and they can be completely daft - but the whole idea is to use RID blood to calm down the crazies...

I do think that if you are able to support keeping an RID mare then you should actually breed pure draughts because there aren't enough of them left... Use the RID stallions (many available through AI) for producing the riding club halfbreds but if you do get an RID mare, breed her pure if you can.

All the best

Imogen
Member:
Scooter

Posted on Tuesday, Dec 26, 2006 - 11:03 pm:

Hi, just thought it interesting that we had a Sea Crest son at our boarding barn for awhile. His name was Sea Quest. That horse could jump. To handle he was nothing short of a pig.

We have a few of his offspring there and they too are very quirky horses. Temperamental is being very nice.
Member:
Paardex

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 4:52 am:

Imogen, do you know what father and mothers father of Cavalier were? Just out of curiosity because normally Holsteiners have a very good temperament.
Jos
Member:
Canderso

Posted on Wednesday, Dec 27, 2006 - 7:19 am:

I realize I was a bit strong in my statement about Cavalier horses. My apologies!

I have seen these horses over the years at the auctions at Cavan. At the first auction, after a couple hours I could pick them out at a glance: breathtakingly talented horses with bags of tricks I know I wouldn't be capable of handling. My assessment was that they were definitely suitable for professional and near-professional riders, but waaaaay out of my league!!!

Maybe these horses were at the auction for a reason? (grin)

But it sounds like going 1/4 Cavalier, 3/4 RID is turning out well for you, Imogen. I guess you are keeping the athleticism/brilliance and adding temperament.

I do agree with you about going pure RID and if I had bags of money, there is no doubt that is what I would be doing. Folks over here, however, want to buy jumpers ($$$$) and event horses ($$) - which, I always thought, were typically 1/2 RID or less.

But I am looking for a full RID mare. Question is, would it be better to go for an old style or the newer, lighter boned type of mare? (My gut is to go for the lighter).
Member:
Canderso

Posted on Thursday, Dec 28, 2006 - 11:06 pm:

Me again. I just went through the results of the 2006 ID Auction in November. Any idea of what the big interest in Castana is all about?
Member:
imogen

Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 6:13 pm:

Sorry I didn't reply before. The 2006 Stallion book says Castana is a 1991 chestnut RID. Has in the direct pedigree Diamond Lad, Kildalton Countess, Laughton, King of Diamonds and Mountain View. Which is not bad. In 2006 only 4 progeny had points. So I have no idea, presumably they are nice looking and jump well...

Jos, Cavalier was by Cor de la Bryere out of Ligustra and thus has Liguster and Quenotte in the pedigree as well.

I went and looked at Coolcronan Wood today. Nice animal, good mover, very hearty chest, pretty dapples, short strong canon bones in front, good bone, typical slightly arab-y 18th century looking draught head (ie fine not coarse), very straight, temperament seemed fine but a real heavy Sea Crest type neck. Fairly short coupled in the back which would be good for my mare.

However not enough progeny data yet and they weren't able to tell me any local young stock to look at. I don't think I'm going to go for him yet as against Grange Bouncer who does throw good temperament although I think probably GBs are more hunting/dressage than showjumping from what I have seen to date.

All the best

Imogen
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