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Discussion on Foal color from a palomino mare
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 10:50 am:
We are going to breed our 17 yo palomino mare this spring. She is a retired show horse that has done and won everything. She has a great disposition, as well a pedigree to boot. We would love to get a baby with her brain and conformation. We have a choice of two studs to breed to - a champagne dilution palomino and a liver chestnut with flaxen mane and tail and gold eyes. Both boys have what we want going for them - smart, athletic, good disposition, some cow sense, etc. They, too, have good bloodlines. Any body have any idea what color foal we might get from either of these breedings? This will be our first baby - we've never bred any of our mares before - so all we really want is something healthy. However, it would be interesting to know what we could get. 
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Member:
canyon28
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 11:58 am:
if the champagne is a golden(champagne on sorrel), it would be possible for you to get an ivory champagne(cream on champagne), which would look very much like a double dilute(cremello), but end up with pumpkin skin and amber or brown eyes. this would happen if the mare passes her cream gene and the stud passes the champagne. since both horses are sorrel based(mare is dilute on sorrel, stud is champagne on sorrel)you would only get a few things, either a palomino, a golden champagne, an ivory champagne, or a sorrel.
the other stallion sounds like that color that some shetland ponies are, but which is rare in most horse breeds. It is called silver dapple and I also see that it can be found in TWH, among a few other breeds. It is extremely rare in the AQHA and probably unknown in TB or Arabs. Basically the horse is still a chestnut, but he has this silver dapple gene which has made his mane flaxen, his coat kind of a grayish chestnut, and his eyes that weird shade. I dont know enough about this gene to know if a palomino can display it, or if it can hide under palomino and come out later in a chestnut offspring. coat modifiers must be displayed in the offspring or they were not passed by the parent, the only thing that can possibly cover a modifier gene is black or gray. I have a smoky black mare that looks as black as any black horse, yet she also carries the cream gene, she had a palomino foal by a sorrel stallion last year. All gray horses are born another color, then they slowly turn gray, so it is also possible that a coat modifier can hide under gray. My stallion Cutter was bred to a gray mare, she had a palomino colt that is now starting to turn gray, so in this instance you can see how eventually he will look gray and no one but the owner and breeder will know he was a palomino. So now he has two coat modifiers, he has the cream gene, plus the graying gene, and he also has sorrel, his dam was a sorrel before she went gray.
Anyhow you would either get a palomino of some shade, possibly a deep golden color one like a chocolate palomino, I dont know for sure, a sorrel or chestnut, or another silver dapple if you bred your mare to this horse. Both of the stallions are red based horses, as is your mare. They all have modifiers that make them the shades they are. So they will either pass the red gene or the modifier. If each horse passes only red, you will get a sorrel or chestnut. Its like tossing a coin, you will have a 50% chance of one or the other of the two parents to pass their modifier.
here is an example. I have a very rare mare that is an amber champagne, she is a qh, there are only a couple of lines that have champagne in them. Anyhow her sire is a golden champagne, and her dam was a bay. So my mare is champagne on bay, she also received a hidden red gene from either her dam or sire. When her foal by my stallion Cutter was born, he was champagne on sorrel(golden champagne), so he inherited the red gene from both parents plus the champagne gene from his dam. Most black based horses are heterozygous for black and red(they have one gene of each, which they can pass again like tossing a coin). (these are the only two basic coat colors, all others are made by modifiers)If the horse recieves a black gene from a parent, it will cause the offspring to be black based and the red gene will be hidden, black is always dominate over red. If the horse has a red based coat color, then it does not have a black gene, black cannot hide under red. So all sorrels or chestnuts are homozygous for red, that is why this is the most common coat color. If you bred two red based horses together, you would never get anything but another red based horse. You have to breed a red horse to a horse with a coat color modifier or one that is black based to get something other than basic red. There are a few homozygous black based horses around but they are pretty rare, since both parents would also have to be black based and have each passed black to the offspring. there is a test that can determine if they do not have a red gene.
Sorry this is so long, there are many good websites that go into horse coat color and the modifiers, here is one of them. https://www.equinecolor.com/
lots of things to learn about coat colors! If you really want to get confused, get into the pinto and paint modifiers!Everything I have posted plus different kinds of spots!
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Member:
mitma
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 3:26 pm:
I love these kinds of topics... Christine, you answer was excellent, especially given the complexity of the topic! Michelle, you can also read Dr. Phillip Sponenberg's (of Virginia Tech) book on horse color genetics. I bought it at amazon.com and read it last fall as I was getting back into horses and it still took several days (and I was a bio and chem major in college). Good Luck!
Martha
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 7:37 pm:
Great link, Christine, thank you. I read it end to end but know that I'll never keep it all straight in my head!
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 8:03 pm:
Wow! Thanks for all the info, Christine. I checked out your website - gorgeous QHs!! Martha - I will have to order the book - I was also a bio major, and now teach AP chemistry - so it will be good reading. The final choice will be our aunt's - the mare is technically hers, but we handle much of the care, and all keep our horses together. My personal choice is Bert, the liver chestnut. We own his half-brother and an '05 gelding out of him, and they have the best dispositions!!! Three of his babies have been born chestnut, and one was born last week that looks to be sorrel, but she's an odd color, and we can't really tell. Here's a question for you Christine - Styx (the 05 gelding) was a very dark chestnut as a baby, with 4 white stockings and a big blaze. He was gelded at about 18 months. He will be 2 on March 3. He got VERY sick - had all kinds of problems, they thought he wouldn't live. We didn't own him yet. He stressed very badly, shed out horribly, and is now sorrel! The other gelding we have, his "uncle", is also a sorrel, but was sorrel his whole life. Bert was born chestnut, turned sorrel for a while, and back to chestnut during the spring of his 2nd year. Have you heard of this? We were really hoping Styx would get that chestnut color. It's gorgeous. He has not started to shed out for the spring yet. Should we hold out hope? Joyce (his breeder) thinks he will darken, but Styx is the oldest of Bert's colts, so we don't really know. I would love to know what you think. Also - I don't know that Bert would be considered "dappled". His mane is just lighter than his body, and eyes are golden. He is a great-grandson of the great QH Bert.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 10:29 pm:
It can be tricky to tell the difference between a true chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail and a
silver bay; Silver only affects black pigment, so there is no effect on a chestnut but they can carry the gene and pass it on.
A silver will often have darker face hairs and lighter hair on its pasterns but as the horse ages these change, silvers usually have a darker undertone than chestnut but this is subjective so can be difficult to determine.
This cross has the potential to give quite a variety of colors. If the silver bay stallion has a chestnut parent he could also carry a chestnut gene; assuming this you could get:
Palomino x silver bay:
palomino
buckskin
chestnut
bay
chestnut carrying silver
silver bay
silver buckskin
silver palomino - (since silver doesn't affect chestnut I suspect a palomino wouldn't show the effect of silver but could pass the gene on).
But... typically light brown or gold eyes are a champagne trait not silver. This could be a chestnut champagne.
Champagnes also have pink skin.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 10:53 pm:
Michelle by sorrel do you mean a lighter brighter shade than chestnut?
The coat change is also characteristic of champagne.
I would love to see a picture of the oddly colored filly.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, Feb 25, 2007 - 11:42 pm:
[IMG]https://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k300/Laurieannb/ginnydec11062.jpg[/IMG]
this is a picture of my silver bay at 8 months
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Member:
canyon28
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 11:56 am:
You can go to https://www.ichregistry.com/ to look at all the various shades of champagne. I think you may also be able to find a website showing the silver dapple in the AQHA. It is very rare, and I am sure can be followed back to where it started, just like the Champagne can. In champagne, the mare, Triangle Lady 10, AQHA 0000445 dob 1930 ,registered as a dun, was the first registered qh that carried the champagne gene in her line. Her sire is listed only as a Morgan stallion, and her dam is listed only as 'Burnett riding mare". I do know that many riding horses of that day were gaited, esepcially ladies riding horses, so the champagne could have come from what is now known as the TWH, etc. In the instance of my mare, the champagne line can be followed in a direct line from dam to dam in the tail line all the way back from her sire Cougarand. His dam was Doc's yellow Rose, her dam was Sandy Rock, her dam was Gracie Buck, her dam was Triangle Lady 38, and her dam was Triangle Lady 10. There are also a few champagnes that have come down through Billy Van, he was also a champagne. His sire was Cotton Eyed Joe and his dam was a daughter of Yellow Wolf. I think this is the one that is in the Skipper W line now, it came from Billy Van.
on the part about the chestnut foals going sorrel, this is really common, I have several of them! they were really chestnut looking when born, then when they shedded out as yearlings, they became plain old sorrels. I do not believe that there is such a thing as a chestnut champagne, since champagne on sorrel makes the horse look like a golden palomino. You will be able to see all that on the champagne site. Champagne on black makes for a Classic , and they do look kind of a grulla color, but with more silvery coats. I am attaching a pic of my mare, an amber champagne and her foal, a golden champagne. he was kind of a weird looking red dun color when he was born, and had the brightest blue eyes you can imagine, more intensely sky blue than a cremello has.  
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Member:
canyon28
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 12:00 pm:
now, here he is as a long yearling. notice that he is now a lighter color than he was at birth and looks like a beautiful golden palomino, complete with white mane and tail. He does not have a cream gene, he is champagne on sorrel. His eyes are a med brown now. The beautiful blue eyes at birth are definitive of a champagne, if you know one of the parents is a champagne.
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Member:
canyon28
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 12:03 pm:
the filly standing behind him is a regular golden palominom, sired by Cutter and out of a chestnut mare. the reddish colt behind him is a red dun.
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Member:
canyon28
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 12:08 pm:
https://www.meadowviewfarm.com/champs_guthrie.htm
here is a link to one known line of silver dapple in the AQHA. I emailed than to ask which line in the pedigree this has come down from.
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Member:
canyon28
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 12:08 pm:
https://www.meadowviewfarm.com/champs_guthrie.htm
here is a link to one known line of silver dapple in the AQHA. I emailed than to ask which line in the pedigree this has come down from.
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 1:00 pm:
Well, now I'm going to have to get a picture of Bert for you to look at! I asked Joyce - she has been at this for about 50 years - she said his is a "liver chestnut". His color is different than a regular chestnut. I don't know enough about horse colors to explain it! I don't think he would be considered champagne, but I don't know. He has a very pretty sheen to him, but not silvery at all. Her palomino stud has the champagne dilution, with the pumkin, spotted skin and very striking eyes. Did your sorrels every turn back to chestnuts? His mane is two different colors - some flaxen, some dark, and so is his tail, but his poor body is bright red!! He was as chocolate as a candy bar as a baby. No matter, we love him to death. He is the most gentle 2 yo you've ever seen. He is registered Tardy Bar Doc, but we call him Styx b/c he was so pitiful for so long - bad case of bastard strangles as a weanling, stressed when gelded. He and another filly who developed ulcers we dubbed "Sticks and Twiggy". What a pair they were, in the barn together at Joyce's. It's amazing he's not a holy terror! BTW - thanks so much for chatting with me about this. I LOVE this site - lots of other horse lovers that want to talk about horses, and no one will think we are "strange". LOL
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 1:08 pm:
Lori - Thanks for the pic! That is too cute! We had a friend that came across a grade gelding who looked to be a sorrel, but his mane and tail were pure silver. We'd never seen anything like it, ever! Everyone turned to stare, b/c the two colors looked like they came from two different horses. I will email her this pic - now she will know what that is called. And our Styx doesn't look like that, he looks like a sorrell with dark streaks in his mane and tail.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 2:49 pm:
Michelle, have you thought of blood typing Styx? Silver, Cream, Agouti, can all be blood typed. Would the owner of the stallion consider blood typing?
That is what I did with my mini, she is bay with silver. I can't wait to see what she looks like in her summer coat.
The term silver is misleading because as you can see it does not necessarily make the coat silvery.
Christine thanks for the two beautiful examples of champagne on bay and on chestnut.
Just a clarification, when I said chestnut champagne, that was awkward writing, what I meant was a chestnut with the champagne gene, which is called gold champagne.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 2:59 pm:
Here is a link to a very good 'silver' site.
https://www.horsecolor.com/
They have a lot of great info.
Enjoy
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Monday, Feb 26, 2007 - 3:11 pm:
We probably won't blood type him. We are "recreational" riders, and Styx is gelded, so it won't matter, really. I am just learning about coat colors, and since our aunt will be breeding her palomino to him next month, I have been reading up on what "our" new baby might look like. But, we have 3 other mares at our place - 2 sorrel overos and one black tobiano. I have learned so much this last week that I atleast now know what NOT to breed to! I will try to upload a pic to Styx's coat and tail, as well as of Bert.
Do you show your minis? We live in Central/East Texas, and there are many breeders around here. What amazes me is how many go through the auctions around here for only $50-$100!! It is all I can do to keep from bringing them home by the truckload, they are so cute. They can't eat as much as our dog. (Don't worry - no kill plants, just ordinary people with inexpensive horses)
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 27, 2007 - 9:51 pm:
Lori and Christine -Figured it out - Bert is a Champagne Chestnut. He has very light amber eyes and freckled skin! We have no idea where the champagne dilution came from - he is the only colt out of Joyce's old stud, Im Second to None, by Tardys Tuffy, to every come out this color. She is going to sell her champagne dilution palomino sometime this spring, so we won't be getting any babies from him, but it will be interesting to see what Bert throws.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 28, 2007 - 11:33 am:
Michelle, Thanks for the info. Any chance you could still post his picture?
I would love to see a picture of the odd colored filly you mentioned also.
Thanks
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Member:
cmatexas
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Posted on Saturday, Apr 21, 2007 - 11:16 pm:
Lori and Christine: Baby is on board in Windy!!! We will have our first baby next spring.
Our gelding, Styx, shed off his HORRIBLE orange color, and is chestnut!!!!
Funny colored colt (oops - not a filly) is still funny colored. Looks like a grulla with amber eyes. Sent off pics to AQHA to let them decide. Can't get my pictures to load, but I will email them to you if you are still interested.
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Member:
maggienm
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2007 - 1:00 am:
Hi Michelle, Yes, please do post pictures.
It sounds to me like a champagne factor at work if there are amber eyes.
As far as I know AQHA does not yet have a place for champange their color palette.
Could you also tell me the colors of dam and sire.
Thanks, glad Windy is in the family way.
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Member:
canyon28
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2007 - 12:09 pm:
AQHA registers champagnes as either black(classic champagne)palomino(champagne on sorrel) or buckskin(champagne on bay) a palomino champagne would look like a cremello. it is up to the owner to prove that the champagne line and dilution is correct, and this is noted in the markings area. A champagne that looks palomino like the one I have does not have a cream gene, they are sorrel on champagne. A true palomino champagne would look very much like a cremello, except that their eyes would end up being brown or amber as they got older. they would be a very light washed out cream color. This is because they would get the cream gene, plus a dose of champagne which would wash out the color even further. the black foal with the light eyes could very well be a smoky black, or a smoky black grulla(grulla and cream gene together) they often have the light colored amber or light brown eyes like some buckskins and palominos do. there are only a few lines of champagne in AQHA, two or three I think at most. if you do a search for the champagne registry, it will have examples of these lines.
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