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Discussion on Breeding two year old filly
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Member:
Dhill
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 13, 2002 - 5:02 pm:
We have a very mature (physically) qh filly that we would like to breed. She is extremely well bred and is a great prospect. Ultimately it would be easiest if she carried the foal however we are not against collecting an embryo off her. What are your opinions on breeding 2year olds?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 14, 2002 - 4:20 am:
Dave, how many months old will she be when bred?
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 19, 2002 - 10:59 am:
Dave does not seem to be answering this question but may i butt in..??
i am thinking of breeding my soon to be 2 year old filly as well...
she will be 2 on March 22 '03... am thinking of starting the AI in late April...
a note here, she is a tall filly, already *now* just over 16 hands... ( i predict that she will mature 17+ hands) most likely, + or - , 1,000 lbs.. put together nicely, her knees are 'less' open then 4 months ago...
what do you think of breeding a two year old..??
** picture attached was taken 4 months ago..**
Ann
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 20, 2002 - 8:51 am:
Hmmm 25 months...foaling at 36 months. Should be OK.
DrO
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 20, 2002 - 12:13 pm:
I STRONGLY DISAGREE
I believe no filly should be bred before the age of 4 years old. There are several reasons for this: The nutrients the filly needs to continue growing strong bones etc., will be taken by foal. The majority of filly's I have seen bred that young end up with rupturing, hip dammage, and has stunted their growth and potential. Their foals were either small or so big they dammaged if not killed the mother during birth. Just because a 12 yr old girl starts her reproductive cycle do you think she should have a child at 13 yrs old?
Why can't you let a horse mature before you start breeding it!
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 20, 2002 - 5:28 pm:
Janette, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Your last sentence says it all.
Regardless of how mature a horse might "look", its growth plates - and I'm not refering to just the ones in the legs - will still be those of a 2 year old. The fact that the plates in the legs might have fused is irrelevant. The rest of the growth plates (such as shoulder, pelvis, spine, etc) won't fuse for years to come - and the bigger the horse, the longer it takes.
And what about emotional maturity? It's fair to say that not all horses mature on an emotional level at the same time but I'd like to meet a 2 or 3 year old that isn't a juvenile.
I have a small farm and breed warmbloods so this topic is dear to my heart. Enough said, I'll get off my soapbox now.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 21, 2002 - 7:00 am:
Hello All,
Janette, you may disagree but there are large studies that have not revealed any significant problems for the mare when they are bred very young. In a study of 137 yearling mares bred, no increased dangers to the mare were identified (Mitchell, Allen. Observation on reproductive performance in the yearling mare. J. Repo. Fertil. Suppl. 1975;23:531). Mares this age may be harder to settle and they have a higher incidence of early embryonic loss. Though you can conjure other behavioral and medical scenerios that you think should be harmful, in practice these problems have not been seen.
In Ann's case the foal will not really start pulling on the mare until the mare is 32 months old and that at this time has reached 99% of her height. The foal will not be born till she is 3. I see no reason that with good nutrition and training that the eventual size, health, or emotional status of the mare would be effected, though this will have to be tested to know for sure.
Would I do it personally? No, but I have no evidence this is harmful to the mare. The evidence I have is just the opposite, there appears to be no or little increase in problems with breeding 2 year old mares. I would be interested in any other information to the contrary.
DrO
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 21, 2002 - 7:21 pm:
"Dr O", This is my opinion, not meant to dis-credit you or your scientific studies at all. I just don't live and work in a scientific controlled environment, and I am highly suspicious of any evidence a vet gets since it is usually a drug company or a breeding association doing the study in a controlled envronment. And anything that is not the desired result is thrown out. My statenments were based on my actual experiences and observances which are far less in number than you or your collegues. If this was a grade filly someone just wanted a roper or barrel racer out of that wasn't of good breeding maybe in terms of economics and getting money out of horse quicker. I certainly wouldn't cash in for the money on a well bred filly no matter how fast she was growing. If anything I would start her sooner but most definitely not risk her not getting nutrients she needs before she is at least 4, in order to cash in on breeding. If both die or are damaged for life was it worth it ?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Nov 22, 2002 - 6:08 am:
Hello Janette,
the problem with your question is that if your purpose is to reduce the risk of death to 0 it can prevent you from doing anything. Particularly if you use emotion instead of rational thought to base your decisions on. No one can guarantee that Ann's mare and foal are going to live through the breeding process. No one could guarantee the outcome if she were 8 years old. The question was what did we think about it, which I took to mean is there a significantly increased risk to the mare and foal breeding at this age vs breeding later.
It is not true that most of the information that vets acquire is driven by the drug companies or breed associations. It is true that some is and I agree with you. I find the nature of this sort of inquiry suspicious, as I have stated many times in these pages. However this was a published paper in a respected journal and so was peered reviewed. It is important to note that science does not say, "breeding 25 month old mares is safe", all it says that is this incidence and under these circumstances this is what happened. If you choose to ignore the scientific literature and the experience of others it certainly is your perogative but horses are living decades longer than they did just 30 years ago because of that scientific inquiry. I still believe a well balanced nutritional program will prevent the mare from being in a negative energy balance, or other nutrient imbalance, prior to foaling.
You are right you do not work in a scientifically controlled environment. But science is the best and most accurate way we have to explore and make discoveries about your environment.
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Friday, Nov 22, 2002 - 10:48 am:
this is all very good info.. THANK YOU...
i will make sure i make a decision that will be best for all involved.. ESPECIALLY the filly/mare...
Ann..
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Member:
Westks
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Posted on Friday, Nov 22, 2002 - 10:55 am:
Thank you DrO,
I do agree that we know much more due to studies and scientific environments. The nutrient imbalance is one of my biggest concerns in that in order to supplement the filly and the foal, wouldn't the levels of specific nutrients need to be monitored? What I think usually happens is young horses are over supplemented, like you see in Halter horses that many times end-up un-sound due to over supplementation, and tooo much weight on little feet ,and founder. I have seen over and over a horse owner read the label on a supplement, and double the amount recommended. I also think the companies put the maximum amount that should be used as their recommendation so quick results are acheived. My worry is the supplements caused the foals to be huge and caused so much tearing at birth that mares had to be stitched after breeding for later foals. And were constantly fighting infection due to shelf left from tearing from first foal.
I do agree that there is no guarantee that an 8- 20 yr old mare will not experience problems, but just felt that if they were at least allowed to get close to finishing growth before bred the odds of less problems would be better. I guess I approach it by trying to give the horse every opportunity to achieve their full growth and that includes mental and emotional growth. So there is less possibility of a nutrient problem, bone problem or future breeding problem. Which brings up another concern with mares that aren't good mothers, or are mean/un-manageable after foaling, and the connection with that and breeding at a very young age. Now I have seen this in mares that were much older too, but a greater incidence to mares bred at 2yrs of age. Now I will say that I have bred mares (not young ones under age 4), in order to get a behavioral change I desired. Because it will mature them emotionally, and settle them into trustworthy reliable behavior no matter what you ask of them.
One more point I would like to make if this young horse would be on its way to show ring, what are the statistics on conformation changes from foaling, and getting young horse that has foaled in good enough shape(foaling belly) to be competitive in show ring, say for halter classes.
Also well bred mare's foals are worth 5 times the amount if bred after mare has show points on her record.
I think it is important to include all of these thoughts before breeding any horse not just 2 yr olds.
Thank you for you insight and thoughts on these issues I have, I may not be mainstream but I have never been in it for quick return on money. I do believe in this day and age you have to be far more careful in your choices because of costs of breeding and keeping horses and selling value. Most of us cannot afford to to spend $5000 and and get $500 for horse a few years later.
Thank You again Janette
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Member:
Elsiedar
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Posted on Friday, Nov 22, 2002 - 12:34 pm:
Janette,
I agree with some of your points against breeding a mare too young, but I look at maturitiy level first. I don't breed as a two year old usually but have bred mares with fall foaling dates the following spring putting them about 41 months old at foaling without any problems. They have been well fed and not over supplemented. Your statements "What I think usually happens is young horses are over supplemented" and "I have seen over and over a horse owner read the label on a supplement, and double the amount recommended" suggests that most horse owners are irresponsible in how they care for their horses.
I have been in the horse business for 40 years and have seen every possible senario and overall find that people do a decent job of raising their horses. I have never found very many horse people who would risk feeding "double the amount" for quick results. I have seen the opposite situation on some big farms where the mares are kept thin and the breeders say they breed better than fat mares. I agree that overly fat mares don't breed well and have problems foaling, but thin mares are more likely to have foaling problems and their foals are not as thrifty at birth.
I have Tennessee Walking Horses and have a mare whose show career was forever ended because of abuse by a bad trainer. She was foaled in 1989 and I bought her in foal with her second foal in the spring of 1994. She has a foal every year and has had a total of 10 foals so far. She is a easy breeder and I have attached a picture of her taken this spring. This mare has never had a bad foal and I have a list of buyers for her future foals and have requests for embryo transplants from her if I won't lease her or sell her.
I strongly disagree with you on breeding an unruly or unmanageable mare for behavior modification. Such behavior in a mare before breeding can result in a very dangerous broodmare with a foal. I firmly believe that is the worst reason ever to breed a mare because that type of temperment can be passed on to the foals and why would you want to risk that. I have had sweet and gentle mares that turned into "mares from hell" when they had a foal. They were never bred again and were sold as riding or show horses with an explanation that she was not a broodmare prospect and why that was so. Not every mare belongs in the breeding herd. I also don't breed to mean tempered stallions. My mares and foals are well known for their gentle temperments.
I also have seen show mares take a year off to produce a foal and return to the show ring. The baby belly can be taken care of with exercise to firm up the stomach muscles. Compact mares that are real short backed will show the baby belly more than a longer mare with more space for the foal.
The mare whose picture is attached is 13 years old this year, has had 10 exceptional foals and is fed steam crimped oats and a light supplement. She has never been on an exercise routine and gets trail ridden each fall a maximum of 5 times for about an hour each time.
Elsie
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 23, 2002 - 12:23 pm:
No Janette as long as the quality of the specific food stuffs is good, I do not think micro-managing the diet would be necessary. The first 7 to 9 months of pregnancy the foal makes very little demands on the mares nutritional requirements so by the time the foal begins really growing the mare will be mature with very close to 100 % of her skeletal growth behind her. At that point she would be fed like any pregnant mare, there are no special dietary requirements for horses at this age.
Actually your thoughts on this subject are very main stream. You do not often see the recommendation thatit is OK to breed horses this age. I stated earlier, this would not be a choice of mine. Training is important at this age and the last trimester of gestation would certainly get in the way of that. I too would feel like I was breeding a baby, but this is an emotional response. I cannot find a good health reason not to and the training problems are personal preference.
DrO
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Member:
Zelda
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 27, 2002 - 10:31 pm:
I have been following this discussion and I have a 'stupid question' to ask; How in the scientific studies that evaluate the impact of a factor on growth and development in young horses do they determine what the final height of the horses would have been if not impacted? In other words how do they predict the final height and decide it was not adversely impacted for instance. I too am a strong believer in using good science but I have never understood how they predict size in individuals or even how they could use an average for a group. I have seen so much variation in my horse's growth patterns; some mature to final height quickly, others are still small as three year olds and grow into big strong horses as 6 year olds.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 28, 2002 - 7:59 am:
A most excellent question, lucie, and in this study they did not. I have seen some very large and expensive studies where this was a controlled factor. So we are left with reasoning and as I wrote (hedged) above, "I see no reason that with good nutrition and training that the eventual size, health, or emotional status of the mare would be effected, though this will have to be tested to know for sure."
DrO
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Monday, Feb 3, 2003 - 4:10 pm:
just an FYI , i decided NOT to breed my two year old... she just looks like she has a lot more growning to do..not to mention a lot of manners to learn first...
thanks all..
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New Member:
Deb44
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Posted on Sunday, Apr 16, 2006 - 9:46 pm:
We are thinking of breeding our AQHA buttermilk buckskin 16 hand mare,,she is now three years old as of 2006,do you feel she is old enough for breeding?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Apr 17, 2006 - 7:01 am:
Deb have you carefully read the discussion above, it answers your question and nothing has changed since it was posted.
DrO
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