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  Discussion on Too old for AI at 16?
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Member:
imogen

Posted on Sunday, Apr 15, 2007 - 6:05 pm:

I decided to breed my mare again and unfortunately picked a stallion that is AI only. She has always done fine with live cover before.

She was in season (I thought) three weeks ago. After two weeks she was behaving oddly and because we have had fantastic sunny weather for nearly a month (this is a bit unusual for Ireland at this time of year, in fact totally unheard of...) I took her to the teaser stallion although it was only 14 days since the last heat just in case. She wasn't in season.

I took her again Friday (2 days ago, which was the day I originally thought she would come back into season) and she was - she was scanned as in season with smallish follicles on both sides. The (very experienced) vet said to bring her back today for another scanning - and she was again in season but what he describes as a "slow cooker" - no obvious main follicle, still several small ones on both sides "like a mare in season in February".

He asked me her age - 16 - and is the kind of person who rarely tells you anything directly but never asks a question without a reason.

I am to take her back again Wednesday to the teaser.

So is AI normally more difficult in older mares? I still have time to change my mind and switch back to the previous live cover stallion but I don't want to miss her next season if there is nothing doing on Wednesday...

Imogen
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 3:24 am:

I like AI especially in older mares, if they have to be inseminated more than once the risk on diseases seem less then with live cover.
Apart from that with us the vet care is more extensive with AI because they only inseminate on a good follicle to save semen. Ofcourse the semen must be of good quality and some stallions are better for AI then others but a good vet knows and checks this so you should be allright. I would not choose frozen semen because that can be a bit more difficult but in my experience[ we haven't used live cover for at least 10 years] it works very well with older and problem mares.
Still if the follicle isn't that good I would concentrate on getting it in a better condition[perhaps she too thinks this weather is unheard of and you just have to wait until may?] otherwise we would use hormone treatment before inseminating or live cover to get a good follicle[personally I would prefer to wait though]
It is very rare a mare has problems with AI young old or otherwise still I have heard of a few cases [they reacted not good on the dilution and preserver in the semen? but I never could find out if this was true or just a story perhaps Dr O can enlighten me?]
Just my experiences though and remember I could not choose between live cover or AI. AI was all there was with the stallions I liked.
Jos
PS Sixteen is not old though is it?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 7:46 am:

I agree with jos, 16 is not an age I associate with increase problems settiling whether AI or live cover. Whether live cover or AI you still have to have a good follicle that ovulates before the mare will settle. Yes you hear of mares that will not settle AI but I too have not seen the mare where this was clearly a problem. Those that we have trouble settling AI also have histories of problems with live cover. We do still see semen from some stallions that are dependably of questionable quality. Whether this was the stallion or semen handling is unclear.
DrO
Member:
imogen

Posted on Monday, Apr 16, 2007 - 11:57 am:

Thanks guys, probably just me being paranoid, as I said, this vet rarely allows a word to escape his mouth that does not have significance... so I thought he was trying to tell me she was too old but I think it's just a bit early in the year.

Actually I just wanted her swabbed this season and to go AI on the next, because she was not in foal last year and also because March foals can end up being kept in here due to wet weather. However the guy with the teaser stallion I think gets very busy with foaling in the next few weeks so he probably wanted to get her settled now if possible...

Sometimes it's hard making sure everyone is happy especially the poor mare!

Imogen
Member:
paardex

Posted on Tuesday, Apr 17, 2007 - 8:14 am:

Mine always make sure I do not forget they are poor mistreated animals who do need a lot of extra care, and the occasional extra vet visit to be on the safe side!
I think yours have the same attitude.
Jos
Member:
sureed

Posted on Sunday, Apr 22, 2007 - 9:30 pm:

Imogen,

My 16-year old TB mare was live covered while she was breeding race horses in the US, but she is now approved Oldenburg and I breed her AI. We had a beautiful 2006 colt and another foal on the way for 2007. My understanding is that as long as the mare has been successfully bred and produced previously, no matter by what means, AI at 16 shouldn't be a problem unless she has developed some kind of infection or growth. Perhaps you should have her tested for these possibilities. I did have my TB mare on Regumate during her first pregnancy with me because she had been barren for a year and then lost a foal the following year before she came to me.

Best wishes,

Suzanne
Member:
imogen

Posted on Thursday, Jun 14, 2007 - 11:58 am:

Experienced breeders/Dr O I need your advice...

After scan today, my mare is not in foal after two AI cycles (on the cycle in the middle the vet felt that there wasn't a suitable follicle so we did not order semen). This is an experienced horse vet, the semen has been checked for activity both times, the mare does not have fluid, has been swabbed clean etc. and on both occasions the semen was collected in the morning and the mare inseminated the same day. This sire has settled other mares in the locality this year that I know of via AI.

The mare is 16, and she has on all 3 cycles this year had multiple small follicles that were slow to ripen but she was only inseminated on occasions when she did have follicles of suitable size. She does also have one cyst on one side of the uterus.

In the next 24 hours I need to decide whether to give up, take my mare for live cover with another stallion that she has gone in foal to before twice, or to stick with this AI sire. At this stage I have spent over 500 euros on the first sire and about 400 euros in vet fees. The second stallion would probably cost me a further 500 euros including transport, scanning, keep etc.

I am keen to breed the mare once more because she is Cavalier out of a Campaigner dam which is the same breeding as Ben About Time, the world number 2 eventing breeding ranked horse, and there aren't many of them around.

What would you do? My feeling is go for the live cover because that way if she still doesn't settle I'll know there is a definite fertility problem whereas if I persist with the AI sire and she does not settle I will be wondering is there just some genetic incompatibility causing embryo death before 16 days.

Thanks for any advice.

Imogen
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Jun 14, 2007 - 2:29 pm:

Hi Imogen, I've had a mare with problems getting settled and as she didn't settle after two times we normally choose another stallion by AI. Most stallionowners have more then one stallion for AI and agree with changing if you encounter problems getting your mare settled to one of their other stallions for the same price.
I don't know if this is an option for you and I certainly do not know if there is any scientific reason for doing so but it is a well known solution over here and I had good results with it.
Jos
Member:
kstud

Posted on Thursday, Jun 14, 2007 - 3:07 pm:

Hi Imogen
Sorry to hear that you are having such hassle, I think I would change stallion too at this stage as the priority must be to get her in foal. I know the stallion well and the stud that you are using and we have used the same sire this year too and all are scanned in foal BUT we are only a few miles from him. We too are having problems with semen from other sire being sent a distance and I have been blaming it on the unbelievably hot weather we have been having. The semen has not been keeping well and the mares are not cycling correctly. My personal advice is go for a live cover and try again next year, I am sure that Richard will hold the cover over for you. Best of luck, Catherine
Member:
mrose

Posted on Thursday, Jun 14, 2007 - 5:29 pm:

imo I'd go for the live cover at this stage. I've been down this road and spent a lot of money with cultures, biopsies, etc. with no firm conclusion as to why the mare didn't catch when bred AI. The live worked fine. However, it's also been my experience that some older mares start getting multiple folicles, one will get large enough to bred, then it will just receed. A mare like this, again, imo., is almost impossible to get bred either live or AI.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jun 17, 2007 - 2:19 pm:

Hello Imogen,
I was out of town when you posted, what did you decide?

Reading your history above I am interested if the ovulation was detected or assumed and if detected what it's time relationship to the insemination?
DrO
Member:
imogen

Posted on Saturday, Jul 28, 2007 - 9:51 am:

Hi all

To pick up on what Dr O asked on 17 Jun, yes the ovulation was detected, I seemed to spend the whole summer on the road having her scanned... We were using chilled semen collected same day.

I sent her away for live cover to the stallion she's been in foal to before. She did not settle on the first covering there either so I was not too hopeful but she was covered again 10th and 13th July and she has been scanned in foal today.

I was talking to the breeder of my mare a month or two ago and he told me that her dam was very hard to tell in season although not difficult to get into foal but he always used live cover. My theory is that the mare just wanted her fun with her boyfriend! A few years ago when she was still eventing and that stallion was also on the circuit she knew him so well they would recognise each other and call out if they "met". She's not called "Baggage" for nothing...

Anyway I have a free return for the AI stallion that she did not go in foal to but because we are now very late this year, to use that I would have to send mare and foal up to them and try for the foal heat next year and the journey is really too long. So I'll see if there is any chance they might allow me to wait until the following year on that. You never know...

Main thing is that she's in foal, I hope she hangs on to it!

Thanks all for your help and advice.

Imogen
Member:
sdms

Posted on Saturday, Jul 28, 2007 - 12:30 pm:

Hi, Imogen, that's great news! And, I'm sure if you explain your situation to the owners of the AI stallion they'll work with you for the year after next.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you, your mare and your foal!

~Sara
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Jul 29, 2007 - 4:23 am:

Great news Imogen!
Stupid question perhaps but why don't you go and get the chilled semen and have a mare inseminated at home? Thats what I like about AI so much not having to travel with foals.
Jos
Member:
imogen

Posted on Sunday, Jul 29, 2007 - 4:33 am:

Hi Jos

Because we are about 8 hours travel time for the semen from the AI stud - we were getting it sent down by courier this time and it did not work on 2 occasions although the vet checked the semen and said it was fine.

I think my mare probably is slightly odd in the sense that the vet involved is very experienced, the stud is also a big and well managed one, the mare is fertile, the stallion has bred successfully by AI a neighbour's horse so in theory the delivery time isn't an issue, but something is not working out. I think she needs to be at the stud and being teased each day for it to work out - I don't see any point in trying it the way we did this summer again.

Also at the stud with the live cover stallion where she has settled in foal, they always "cross" them ie cover them twice on the same season, which I think is important for my mare. However to contradict myself, I also think that she ovulates slightly earlier than the scanning is showing because working backwards from the scan dates on previous pregnancies, she always seems to go in foal on the first covering, not the second one ie as she is coming into season.

Who knows! Anyway, we got there in the end and actually I'm really pleased I will have another foal that will be the same breeding as my 2 yo because I am so pleased with her temperament.

All the best

Imogen
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