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Discussion on Vocal Stallion
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New Member:
uhfarm
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 6:36 pm:
Hello,
I am a first time stallion owner. My guy is 6 years old and previous to my purchasing him, he was never ridden or trained. I have had him now for about 4 months. I did my homework and researched a number of discussion boards on training stallions. When I first handled him, he tried to bite me and rear. Now, he is very well-mannered. Even my vet was impressed. I can ride him around other horses without a problem. Since the mare across from his pasture is in season, he has become more vocal. I took him to a show today just to school him and he called more than a few times. I know other horses tend to call at a show but since he is a stallion, he is held to a higher standard than mares and geldings. What are some successful training methods I can use to curb his calling? What is acceptable for a stallion?
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Member:
oscarvv
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 8:29 pm:
It's sounds like you have come a long way with this guy.
If he is being handled or ridden when he calls redirect his thoughts because it means they are not on you 100%. You can back him up a few steps (not harshly), lunge him around you, if under saddle work on turn on the forehand etc... I am sure you know never to hit a horse's penis when he DrOps. But it's amazing how many people do just that. Just redirect his thoughts, get his focus back on you.
I allow my stallion to call while loose in his stall and paddock. But he never calls much, so it's not much of an issue. I do not allow him to call while being led/handled or ridden.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2007 - 10:11 pm:
Like Barbara, I think you've come a long way in a relatively short time. I'm impressed! I also agree with her making him work and getting his mind back on you. At shows, when I'm holding him or on him I can tell when either of my guys are starting to thinking about calling out. I tap them with the end of the lead or reins and say "ut, ut" to remind them I'm there and this isn't the place. This is after they have been worked with for a long time. When they are in their stalls, I don't care that they call out, but not when I'm on them or leading them.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 9:25 am:
I am just putting in my vote for what is alread been stated Tish, you do not want so much to train him not to holler (which requires punishment) but train him to be paying attention to you when in hand and saddle (which allows appropriate rewarding). Refocus as described above to get his attention and the reward can be as simple as relaxing the lead once focused.
DrO
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:28 pm:
Hi Trisha,
Sounds like you have made great progress. He's a lucky stallion.
I allow my stallions to call on their own time, but not on mine. It would be nice if the re-direction worked all the time, but I have found that with some of mine it does not. Rewarding good/acceptable behaviors does not always teach a horse what the unacceptable behaviors are, and you don't have to be cruel to communicate: do not call while you are working. I've found that the way to fix this is in hand. My loudest boy responded well to a firm tap (nothing abusive) on the muzzle and NO. I don't like a shank unless I need it, and never jerk on a bit (you'll damage his bars). If you are 100% consistent, he will become aware that calling is undesirable (they aren't born knowing that), and become easier to correct.
It is a good practice not to punish horses when rewards work. Some ingrained/unconscious behaviors don't resolve that way. To me, calling is a "gateway behavior" for my stallions that needs fixing, and I've found they often aren't really aware they're doing it.
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Member:
maureane
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 12:52 pm:
I have started a number of colts. I agree with the observation that if they are hollering they aren't paying appropriate attention to the handler. In fact, this is true of any horse.
Since I normally work with youngsters I am very cautious not to scare them or, alternatively, provoke a fight. Therefore, when a colt I am handling or riding vocalizes I put him to work. I try to make the work difficult enough to require his attention, but not be punitive. Not only do I usually recapture his attention, but he also learns that if he whinneys he will have to go to work.
I do essentially the same thing when a colt has a erection - I put him into a trot. It is extremely uncomfortable to trot with an erection, yet I am not punishing him.
Good luck!
Maureane
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New Member:
uhfarm
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 3:56 pm:
Thank you everyone for your advice. Today I started to redirect him when he called and had success. He called back about 5 out of 10 times when someone called to him. I will be consistent and hope it will decrease even more with time. I am going to bred him in-hand this week for the first time (his and mine) and have questions about his temperament after he learns about the "birds and the bees." Will his attention wander even more? What changes in temperament should I be aware of? I will have my vet supervise when he covers the mare, she specializes in repro. I have a different halter just for breeding and plan on wearing a yellow hat. Any thoughts or advice? I understand temperament will vary from stallion to stallion but other trainers make it sound like he will become a monster!
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 4:33 pm:
Hi Trisha,
I have heard of stallions that supposedly became unmanageable after learning about their fun jobs. I suspect (but don't know) that they may not have been completely manageable to start with.
Your guy sounds just great to work with. Bearing in mind that breeding is a very powerful biological urge, I would give him the benefit of expecting him to learn how to handle both roles just fine w/o becoming a villain. It's really just more training like you've already done (only more distracting). With experience and your great handling, he should learn when it's time to breed and when it isn't.
A lot of people have half-trained stallions. Yours sounds well handled and good-minded. I'd be surprised if he became a permanent monster in your care. Good luck and tell us what happens.
- elk
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Member:
canter
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 4:38 pm:
Trisha, I'm nothing even close to an expert, having never bred a horse, but I wanted to comment on the trainer who stated the stallion would become a monster. About 8 or 9 years ago, I had the good luck to watch a Friesian stallion live cover a Friesian mare. It was amazing how controlled and civilized the whole thing was. I expected something more wild, and thought the stallion would be crazy. It was so...dignified, for lack of a better word and the stallion was one big puppy when it was all said and done.
So, from that one experience, I don't think every stallion automatically becomes a nut case. Granted, though, it was the first and last time I got to see something like that but I guess with proper handling and training, it doesn't have to be too bad.
BTW, curiosity is killing me...why the yellow hat?
Good luck!
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Member:
dres
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 4:58 pm:
Have you told us what breed he is.. ? I know that can make a difference.. the Friesians ARE very low key, In fact in Holland they don't even geld them regardless if used as a breeding stallion..
Till you really know what you are dealing with I would use a helmet not the yellow hat.. I realize he will associate the special 'breeding' halter and maybe the yellow hat with breeding time outs.. I would lean more on the halter for that , and a helmet for safety.. I have seem some stallions just go crazy / taking many mounts to get the job done.. and well with that are the flaying legs..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
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Member:
mrose
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Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 7:58 pm:
Hi Trisha. I agree that a helmet is a good idea "just in case." Are you handling the stallion or the mare? If you are handling the stallion, who is holding the mare? Or are you just tying her? In my experience it has worked out better for someone to be holding the mare, but they should be standing behind some protection. We use a very solid "dutch door" on the side of our barn. Some people use a half wall or a break-away breeding shute. The mare handler should also be wearing a helmet. Infact, imo it's more dangerous to hold the mare because some stallions reach quite far forward with their front legs. The "dutch door" protects against the mare striking out, helps to keep her from moving around too much, and protects the handler from the stallion to some extent.
I always use a stud chain, and when breeding is the only time I use a stud chain. (I breed Arabians.) When the stallons see the stud chain on the halter, they know what is coming.
Don't expect everything to go perfectly the first time around. I hope the mare you are using is an experienced, easy to breed mare. This will make your life easier. Often the stallion is at first afraid to approach the mare too close as he's often been rebuked by either his handler or a mare for getting close. (This is one reason it's good, imo, not to punish a stallion for acting like a stallion.)
Of course, some stallions are overly enthusiastic their first time or two, and may be so excited they don't mount correctly. Some will try to mount the mare's side instead of the rear. He may mount correctly but ejaculate outside the mare. They might bite the mare's neck or withers. So, be prepared.
Like everything they have to be trained how to breed correctly. Ideally, he should approach from the side and "court" the mare a little, then move to the back. It will take patience on your part and the mare's. If things are really going badly, back the stallion up, go for a walk, put him back in his stall for a little while, let him nibble grass -whatever so everyone, including you, gets a short breather, then try again. Praise him when he's doing the right thing, and get after him if he starts to get rough. As always, try and teach him to listen to you. I haven't looked, but I imagine Dr.O has a good article on breeding on this site.
You might invest in a good bottle of wine or something stronger. After your upcoming experience you might need it!
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New Member:
uhfarm
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Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 9:21 am:
My guy is a Oldenburg cross. I will be handling my stallion. My friend told me a successful local breeder/FEI dressage trainer always wears a yellow hat when she breeds her stallions. I don't know if horses can see yellow better than other colors but since her stallions are well mannered, I thought I should do the same. He is going to be bred this week. I plan on riding him 1/2 hr after the breeding so he starts to understand the difference between working mode and breeding mode (advice from another post). I will start to chill a bottle of wine at let you know how the experience went!
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Member:
morg1
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Posted on Tuesday, May 22, 2007 - 5:23 pm:
I have a 4 year old Morgan stallion that I started breeding with last year. Like you, he is my first stallion and I was warned that his disposition would change and he would become a monster. Well, I am happy to report that there is no change that I can see in his behavior. He is very respectful of me and pays attention when I ask him too. I do have a problem with him hollering, and I will try your suggestions here, but I think a lot of that will go away with maturity and more training. He didn't holler away from home (at the trainers). I think that he hollers here because he considers all the the horses on the farm his. People often ride past my farm, and his pen is right by the road. He never hollers at them, in fact they rarely get more than a curious look.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Wednesday, May 23, 2007 - 7:35 am:
Hello All,
We breed and ride our stallions. This idea of well behaved stallions becoming monsters following the beginning of the breeding season is really not common in my experience and often they were not that great before beginning breeding.
Often after beginning breeding they need a little help refocusing on the handler but the same training that made them manageable before breeding, will bring them back into line following breeding.
DrO
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Member:
uhfarm
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Posted on Saturday, Jun 2, 2007 - 9:44 pm:
Hi everyone!
I bred my stallion this past week. What an experience. The first time it took about an 1 hour before they both figured it out. My stallion took his time, groomed/teased the mare, and waited until she was receptive. The following x 2 only took 5 minutes. I rode him after each breeding trying to get his mind focused on work again. He called out a few times but was really good considering the mare he bred was in the paddock next to the ring. I only had problems when he first gets excited - he squashed me in the stall a few times(didn't care about my whip or the chain over his nose). I finally held up a broom so he wouldn't run over me. I now realize how important good handling/trainging BEFORE breeding. Otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to control him. He is still a very good boy with a gentle disposition (except when he is excited ... I guess that will improve with some more training/experience too). He did not turn into a monster. My vet left me hanging, so I wouldn't have been able to do this successfully without everyones advice. THANK YOU!!!
now does anyone have any advice for showing a stallion??? (this will be my next post)
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Sunday, Jun 3, 2007 - 10:31 am:
Besides riding and breeding, we are also showing our paso fino stallion. In the past we have competed our TB stallion in dressage and it is all the same: behavior in hand, translates to behavior during breeding, and it all translates to behavior during showing.
ROMANTICO was renowned for his post dressage test bellow. He would perform perfectly quietly and great dignity for the test, would come to face the judge and would dependably let out a huge bellow while continuing to stand perfectly still following his evaluation. I think the whole appearance of "great power under control" helped his scores overtime as it gave insight to what is the best personalities I have ever known in any horse.
Note if the chain over the nose is ignored move the chain under the upper lip, it is surprising how much attention that will grab in a distracted horse and with proper use you should be able to graduate back to over the nose and eventually may even eliminate the chain over anything altogether. It does take practice however to maintain a lip chain in place without applying a distracting amount of pressure while he behaves.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 3:35 am:
I suppose a lip chain has a similar effect (release of endorphins) as a twitch - is that correct?
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Monday, Jun 4, 2007 - 8:08 am:
Wow I hear the Twilight Zone theme playing and have odd feelings of daja-vu LL. I just seconds ago addressed this very point in another post, see the extended discussion and some interesting experiences by others on this effect at Treatments and Medications for Horses » Antibiotics and Antimicrobials » Trimethoprim -Sulfa » Injured horse, which drug is better.
DrO
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Member:
frances
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 5, 2007 - 8:31 am:
Spooky! And thanks.
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