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Discussion on How big is too big?
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 6:43 am:
Is there any information about having a small mare inseminated by a big stallion. When does this get dangerous?[birthing problems for instance?] Is it height or 'type'[draft x arab for instance] related?
Anyone having experiences?
Jos
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 6:52 am:
jos,
My first horse, that cost $25.00, was out of a Shetland mare, and a draft mix stallion. Her foals, which she had every year, were taller than her, and very stocky horses. I would think the mare would only produce what she can handle giving birth too. I would trust nature to take care of that.
Just my experiences.
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 7:21 am:
There has been research on this jos and what was found is the mare controls the size of the fetus and therefore an increase in rate of dystocia was not found when small mares where bred with large stallions.
DrO
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 10:18 am:
Thanks so much I was curious if I could use any type of stallion on my arab mare without risk.[well no Percheron or draft no offence meant but my interest goes out to warmbloods]
Jos
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 10:22 am:
Oh Angie, how did they manage that!! I've seen crosses from shetlandmales with the oldfashioned warmbloods the farmers used about 25 years ago[first load of shetlandponies in Holland after that they were considered REAL stallions ] I was thinking of AI!
Jos
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Member:
ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 10:51 am:
Jos,
Very carefully?!
This was before AI was ever used, at least I don't think there was such a thing 35 years ago! The guy kept the little pony mare for company for his stallion. Every year she foaled and he sold the foal for $25.00 to some horse crazy kid. I got one foal, the next year my best friend got one. We both got colts; mine was about 14H, and a stocky little chestnut. My friends was a cream colored colt, and he got a lot bigger both in height and width!
If I remember correctly, the mare was pretty dark colored, like the chocolate type I think. With the dirty white mane and tail. The stallion was a handsome palomino, I am thinking Morgan and I don't know what kind of draft. I do remember we always talked about how strange the pairing was of the 2 horses, and how the foals ended up so different from year to year. There was lots of discussion about the draft part, so that stuck in my mind over the years. Of course, how much draft the stallion was, I don't know. He was BIG though!
Thanks for stirring up memories of my first "porse" or is that "horsny" LOL!!
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 11:51 am:
Somehow it seemed so much more fun then didn't it? The first porse/horsney [ ] I remember was called'Easter'[yes date of birth!] a paint born to a big 'Gelders' mare[type of heavy workinghorse that founded together with the 'Groninger'the KWPN]The talk of the village at that time![some never believed the Shetland was the daddy until he started to be just as stubborn as his father]
But these accidents were always with little dad and big mama so I wondered...
Jos
PS just had my Cocker Spaniel neutered to evade the Dobermann x Cocker cross..
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Member:
kstud
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 12:55 pm:
Hi Jos,
Whilst agreeing that nature tries to ensure that the foal will be born experience has taught me that this is not always the case and especially with warmbloods, though I will elaborate on that. We run a foaling enterprise here in Ireland and until recently rarely saw any real problems. We foal down both Thoroughbreds and Sport horses which were until recently any mixture of TB and Irish Draught and generally the only oversize problems that were seen were if the mares first foal was by a strong boned stallion. I would always recommend that any mare should have her first foal by either a TB or pony as there will be a lower risk of damage to the mare, an easier foaling is a better experience and less tiring for her and so she should let the foal suck and bond with it much quicker and be an experienced hand at it the following year.
However since the popularity of Continental warmbloods here, especially Dutch and German horses of all breeds we have seen an exponential growth in dystocia. I have seen mares die due to absolute oversize of the foal and all the stallions involved were the above warmbloods and the mares involved ranged from TB to traditional sport horses. Discussing this with other vets shows that we are not alone in this and in fact one colleague of mine has installed a block and tackle to hoist mares up to assist in foaling them and he blames the use of warmblood stallions for this.
Sorry to sound a cautionary note but we have a policy on our farm of not using warmblood stallions based on those reasons and that I could not bear to lose any of my mares. Of course plenty of mares foal no problems too but if you are going down that route then I really would advocate that if she is a maiden mare that you would use something else for the first foal, by doing this you will also get an idea if she would tend to breed bigger foals than normal, ie if she breeds an elephant to a pony or TB then it would be foolish to go warmblood!
Best of luck in the breeding lottery
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 2:21 pm:
Hi Catherine and thanks for your insights. I can readily believe the problems you had as we had the same problems with warmblood mares and certain lines of stallions. Mostly they seemed to get 'stuck' on a very brood hind end or even the shoulders[often 'Ramiro' blood involved on the stallions side] Which makes me wonder if it is not only stallion but one mare being prone to problems more than others resulting in real problems with a 'bad' choice of stallion.
Strange thing is with the thoroughbred mares we had less problems then with halfblood mares who also carried the blood of the sires big boned family.[which is why I stated height versus type in my first question]
You ofcourse are perfectly right about the first foal, I would never try an oversized stallion for the first foal even if there is no scientific proof it matters[ I just feel for the poor mare ]. It is interesting to hear about your findings as they underline mine which were usually disregarded.
Luck we all certainly need with horses but with good advice and information I hope not to end up in a 'lottery'
Jos
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Member:
ekaufman
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Posted on Friday, Dec 7, 2007 - 7:23 pm:
Hi Catherine and Jos,
Any changes in feeding during gestation that might help to explain such a dramatic increase in over-size foals?
I would be concerned about the end-product as well as the foaling process. I breed Andalusians, and have been interested in the sport crosses, but noticed that a lot of them (not all) turn out as pieces-parts horses. A lot of couches on toothpicks, to be precise, with short necks and long backs.
So I would be concerned not only about foaling, but about whether the breeds and lines in question have a history of mixing harmoniously.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 8, 2007 - 5:10 am:
No changes in feed as far as I have seen. As far as I can say[NO scientific proof however]mares that tended to have a 'not skinny' foal which I could best explain as fleshy and muscled and stallions of the same type[often with ancestors even bigger or heavily muscled and big boned] got into trouble.
A friend had a 3/4 Thoroughbred KWPN[german TB lines big boned stayers] a big roomy mare inseminated by Ramiro[famous showjumper totally Holstein]first foal gave problems got stuck took to long foal dead. He decided it was because it had been her first foal[and dad and mom were of the same height!] and had her bred to Ramiro again. Next year mom and foal died during delivery. First was a filly second a male foal.
We had a big older Nimmerdor mare[sixth foal] inseminated by Ramiro and left her at the vets to foal after hearing about the friends first foal. Foal was a filly mother had trouble delivering and couldn't get up alone for two days after that everything went well[I do not want to know what would have happened with a male foal or a first foal] Perhaps bad luck but being excessively careful can't hurt with horses.
About sportscrosses I would be very interested in the crosses and their results normally if you have an old type and a totally different 'second party' I think you could call it an outcross and if they both breed fairly steady their own type the biggest chance in my experience is a big resemblance to either mom or dad [next foal could run over to the other side]
If you choose for example one party a warmblood showjumper [which are at the moment mostly very mixed] imo you could indeed get everything in the pedigrees of both.
If you want a long neck and a short back I suppose you are in for a good arab. If you want a long neck and a longer back[possibly Dressage?]some Trakehners are still very solid in their pedigree[some Holsteiners would do the same for you] But you would need a very good example of each race you cross with who has prooved to give his own type to his offspring to reduce the 'gamble' part.
Jos
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Member:
sureed
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 8, 2007 - 9:07 pm:
Hi all,
I posted here last year because I had an Oldenburg colt (Dad was 16.2) out of a TB mare (16.1) that couldn't get up. He had the longest legs (like a giraffe) and could get up sometimes but not always, and then became dependent on us helping him. After five days, we had to bring him and the mare to ICU where they could monitor and assist as needed 24/7 as he had managed to scrape off skin down to the muscle sliding himself around the floor when we couldn't be with him. Before I owned her, this mare had three prior TB foals (though one died).
Catherine responded to my post last year and let me know that this problem of TB/WB cross was not uncommon and that her Stud has special foaling stalls for these foals. My vet also said he sees this problem in about 1 out of 20 TB/WB cross foals (lucky me I got one on the first try). The colt is great now, a real beauty and a lovely mover, so no lasting effects from the initial trauma. However, the expense was great.
I rebred the mare to the Andalusian stallion (16h) we stand for 2007. She gave birth to the most beautiful Iberian colt, no problems whatsoever. She is in foal again to the same stallion for 2008. Then we will breed her for 2009 with our newly approved Oldenburg stallion(16.1) of different lineage from the first WB stallion we bred her to and hope for the best (but be prepared for the worst).
Given her size and the minimal size differentiation between the two stallions to which she was bred in 06 and 07 with highly different outcomes, I tend to agree that there may be some genetic predisposition from the sire that influences the ease of foaling and health/size of the foal at birth.
That being said, I bred my 17.1 Hanoverian mare to Coconut Grove (16h), the only TB in America approved for Hanoverian breeding and everything was fine and dandy. I really wasn't worried about this cross given D'Lady's size.
One thing that will hamper us in making these decisions is that we don't have data, except for the information we pass among ourselves and know from our friends, as to which stallion or lines are associated with these kinds of problems.
That is one of the things that makes this site so important.
I endorse the cautionary route, breed the maiden to a smaller stallion first and take it from there, and then try to gather as much info as possible about foal health/mortality/vitality from future stallions.
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Member:
paardex
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Posted on Sunday, Dec 9, 2007 - 4:56 am:
Hi Suzanne, we bred our only Thoroughbred mare to a series of warmbloods[KWPN and Holstein]she was a big mare[17]but all legs and no body.Though she got very heavy all the foals[8] arrived in no time no problems getting up or whatever. The only time something went wrong was when she carried twins[7 months ]. The stallions were in between 16.5 and even 17.2h and one was a very big son of the above mentioned Ramiro[Ronald]all the foals jumped on national or light international levels.[but I am talking about 15 years ago]
I think perhaps having Thoroughbreds in the US[and Ire] available with a very muscled hindend will get you sooner in trouble. Because of the lack of availability in Holland of TB we made do with cheap hurdle[?] horses or the stayer type from Germany. I could for instance imaginetrouble with QH crosses, I suppose your horses have a well muscled hindend and if you mix that with big boned WB I can imagine trouble.
Usually the WB with SFblood gives lighter foals [because the SF already carries a lot of TB and AA] but if you want a dressage horse this of course won't be of any help.
'Dressage' stallions who to my knowledge gave no trouble with their foals[they often get big later like my Holsteiner family] are KWPN Flemmingh[father of Lingh] and Jazz.[not intended to push these stallions I alas do not own them] Tey already gave a lot of sons and daughters soo.
Interesting though to hear someone elses experiences. How do the Iberian crosses behave?
Jos
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