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  Discussion on Long heat cycle in inseminated mare
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Member:
Jdunton

Posted on Monday, Mar 14, 2005 - 3:56 pm:

My 8 year old mare came into heat Sunday before last and the vet checked her to have a follicle ready to breed on Wednesday. We AI'd her on Wednesday and on Thursday. She was still in heat Friday, Saturday, Sunday and today she teased in heat to my stallion. Is it more than likely that she has still not ovulated or could she have ovulated but still show signs of heat?
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Monday, Mar 14, 2005 - 5:00 pm:

Usually, when inseminating like that, you give them a shot to go out of hear. That usually works, though not every time. Did you have her follicle palpated just before breeding to make sure it was a certain size? This time of year mares will hold a follicle and not ovulate for several days. We had one last year that we quit breeding after 10 days since she was our own and the vet wasn't able to come to see what was going on. She was still in heat when we stopped. She eventually went out. Then, she didn't come back in. Had the vet ultrasound her at about 45 days to see where she was in her cycle and lo and behold, she had a pregnancy in there. She still was producing follicles too. She is 4 days past due date right now, looks like she will foal within the next couple of days. EO
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 14, 2005 - 5:03 pm:

Unless she had two follicles, she had not ovulated by late Saturday. Why this is is explained in the article associated with this forum see the subtopic, Spring and Summer Breeding Patterns. She sounds like she is still transitional to me.
DrO
Member:
Contilli

Posted on Monday, Mar 14, 2005 - 6:04 pm:

If your mare was palpated properly then your vet would know the size of her follicle(s). And he would know whether she is softening. If she is softening/gushy then inseminate and give Ovuplant or HCG. They are "pushers" if she is ready, meaning if her follicle is 30-45cm and softening or gushy she is ready for 'pushers' and to be bred. The ‘pushers’ will help speed her ovulation up. Sounds like your vet should be waiting until she is softening or gushy before breeding. Otherwise other problems will occur. Semen is irritating and can cause fluid or a reaction, so the least amount of semen is best.

My mare will hang on that long also. Sometimes this is a transitional cycle. I breed on it anyway and have always been lucky. It is just a bit trickier to manage.

Good luck,
Denise
www.BryantFarm.com
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Mar 14, 2005 - 8:51 pm:

Whoa guys, the mares do not read the books particularly in March. Running a breeding station I have palpated and managed the ovulation and insemination of thousands of mares, sometimes down to a 6 hour window with frozen semen. Just because it is big and soft is not a guarantee Ovuplant or HCG will cause her to ovulate in 36 hours, particularly in March.

Perhaps lights starting in Dec, a two week course of Regumate, then aggressive HCG would likely cause a reasonable dependable post HCG ovulation but Joy needs to understand this is not automatic or she begins to question herself, her horses health, and her vet. Joy read through our articles on breeding horses paying particular attention to basic reproduction physiology.

Mares do not get pregnant because they are given drugs, they get pregnant because semen and ovulation are properly timed. Sometines drugs help but without a basic understanding of the process, the drugs get in the way, particularly this time of year when it can be hard to put it all together no matter how much you know.
DrO
Member:
Eoeo

Posted on Monday, Mar 14, 2005 - 11:22 pm:

That is why we simply quit breeding that particular mare, Dr. O, it was so early and we didn't give her a shot to go out. We don't AI either, since we are breeding TBs, however I know that some that do AI give them shots to get them to ovulate. In fact, when Basket Weave, one of our stallions was being managed by a sydicate, they insisted that all mares be given a shot to ovulate before they bred them to him since they were only getting one cover. It failed miserably and that is why we have him today. He breeds mares here until they go out and we had 100% conception rate and all but one settled on the first cycle. It's not nice to try and fool Mother Nature sometimes. EO
Member:
Jdunton

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 12:08 pm:

Thankyou everyone for your input. And yes the mare was palpated and ultrasounded. She was checked again right before we AI'd her and her follicle was 42 cm two days before we inseminated her but was still firm. The day of insemination it was larger, soft and seemed perfectly ready. And was given a shot of HCG to help her ovulate. Last year I had the same problem with this mare. I wanted to give it one more shot this year since I had another shipment of semen coming. The vet did cover all bases this spring even treated her earlier for a very low grade infection. Also did a flush. I know that even though everything seems right to breed that it isn't a guarantee. I am just very disappointed that I have spent so much money to get this mare bred that I purchased just for that reason and for the second season in a row she is still not bred. The vet thinks possibly she should be live covered to get things started up again. She had a foal two years ago. Last year on the second go round we did the whole regumate reutine with no luck either. Her health is good, the vet doesn't see any reason why we can't get her in foal. I think it is just a timing thing. Can it be that we need to wait longer than normal on this mare even though her follicle is large enough and soft?
Member:
Jdunton

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 12:25 pm:

Thanks Dr. O. I have printed out all the articles on breeding and am going to take them home tonight and study through them. I am running out of patience with this mare. For the past 2 years my vet AI'd my other mare successfully the first time. Instead of paying for another collection and shipment, I may just live cover her with my stallion and see if I have any luck there. She has been under lights since the middle of November. I agree with what you said that they don't always read the book. I just wish this thing could be cut and dry and I could have a definite answer as to why she won't get pregnant. Thanks, Joy
Member:
Contilli

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 1:37 pm:

Hi Joy-

One of my mares holds on forever! She gets a 45-48/softening and three days later ovulates. It seems as if she never will! The time of year, teasing, lights etc. never change how 'she' ovulates. Patience and $ are the only things that get her pregnant :-)

Live cver sounds like a good thing to try. Just as long as it is a respectful stallion. Live cover can be scary.

Good luck,
Denise
www.BryantFarm.com
Member:
Jdunton

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 2:00 pm:

Hi Denise,

It seems as though this is going to be the case with my mare also. Hundreds of $ later. Did your mare take after waiting 3 days to ovulate?

My stallion is very respectful. He is young and a slow starter and has only covered 2 mares last year for the first time. But if that is what it takes to get her in foal, then I guess I will try with him til she is. I wish my 1st pick stallion was closer, I would just haul her there and leave her til it was done.

Thanks for your input. This is very frustrating and expensive and I don't have an endless supply of money to put into this.

Joy
Member:
Contilli

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 3:18 pm:

Hi Joy-

Yes, my mare does get in foal on that (lasting) cycle. But of course, your mare may be different. (I need to say that as people may think I assume all mares are the same.) My other mare, a TB, did the same thing last summer. We have never bred (with frozen) and missed. I want to say it is a lot of luck. Those statistics are truly amazing! I have been lucky and I know my day is coming….. Every breeder, big or small, has their time of difficulties and their years of blessings. If your horse were mine I would palpate, palpate, palpate. We ultrasound at the beginning of the season to determine if there is any edema, cysts or questionable areas. We draw a quick description and date it. After insemination we ultrasound for pregnancy at D-14, D-26, D-40 and lastly at D-60.

If she has done this before, you can try short cycling her. And strong teasing with your stallion. Is she a TB? I ask because I know how timing is essential for the foal.

If she were mine, I would, at the beginning of the season (March 15 for me) start her on Regumate for 10 days, pull her off and start palpating two days later. Expecting her to be late I would palpate once daily until she softens then when you think she cannot hold any longer I give Deslorelin, HCG or Ovuplant. (palpating every 12 hours) We breed 16 hrs post drugs then if they have not ovulated again at 38 hrs. This our usual practice. I have two mares that are super easy and we never use drugs with them

Ovuplant has a "reputation" to have difficulties with the mare taking longer to come back in season after it has been inserted, so people have been taking the pill back out after ovulation. Generally we use HCG. If you have a stallion available I would use him. Nature has a way of making things to happen and maybe this will help.

I am not a vet and do not do any internal repro work. I do however; do the prep work, thawing, sterilizing etc.

I feel for you, breeding is so unpredictable and very expensive. If you are a person like me, you like things in order. The unknown can be frustrating.

My best,
Denise
www.BryantFarm.com
Member:
Jdunton

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 4:00 pm:

Hi Denise,
My mare is a Paint Mare. The vet on March 7 did an ultrasound and detected a follicle of 42 cm. We ordered semen it arrived on the 9th. At that time he palpated and found the follicle to be very large and very soft and ready to go. So we inseminated. The next day he palpated again and she hadn't ovulated so we insiminated again. When I had found that she was still in heat on Friday I should have ordered another shipment, but didn't. He did use HCG on her, but we have never used the Ovuplant. I have heard that a mare can become unresponsive to HCG if used a lot. Is that true? Sounds like you have a lot of experience with this and have been very fortunate. I don't have much experience at it but with this mare I am learning the unfortunate way.

Thankyou so much for your concern and all your insight. It really helps me. At this point I don't know what to do even though it is early in the season. I just don't want to keep dumping money into her. At some point I need to cut my losses.

Thanks,
Joy
Member:
Contilli

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 5:52 pm:

Hi Again Joy-

Yes, your mare can become unresponsive to drugs in general but especially to HCG – in my opinion. Select Breeders Services told me the same thing.

There are so many considerations to breeding. I’ve used Ovuplant twice and did not have difficulties with return heats. I would rather the Deslorelin as SBS recommended. If you use Ovuplant which is okay also, they recommend it be inserted in the vulva so you can easily pop it back out. I am a little confused at the moment- I’ve used Ovuplant (inserted under the skin) but I remember using Deslorelin (shot), but I think they are one in the same. Or maybe there ate two forms. I’ll check with my vet.

Was this your paints first cycle?

Has she ovulated? If you are unsure your vet can ultrasound and see if there is a CL present which indicates that an ovulation occurred. It is kind of like a crater if you will where the follicle popped so-to-speak.

Are you going to short cycle her?
Have you done a culture on her?
How about a lavage?
Is this your first attempt this year?
Did she get in foal at all last year?
How many babies has she had?
<<<<she>>>> Did she ovulate?

I wouldn’t give up yet. I would try one more cycle if you can afford it. Especially if you can do live cover. You don’t need your vet there to palpate. Do it the old fashion style. We used to cover every other day until she goes out of season (rejects the stallion). Sounds like your stallion will be perfect at least for this year. Things change after they have one foal.

Good info page:
https://www.selectbreeders.com/cold_facts_mare.cfm

Feel free to call anytime if you want to chat…
Denise
www.BryantFarm.com
Member:
Jdunton

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 7:07 pm:

Hi Denise,

You have been SO helpful. I can't tell you enough Thankyou. It is nice to have someone to talk to about this who knows other than the vet. I just don't know if I am going to try again. My funds are limited and I am so upset about it. I really do not know for sure yet whether or not she is bred, but I feel that the chances of it are very slim.

I haven't even checked her today at all to see if she is receptive to my stallion. I just feel, what's the use!? And I don't mind breeding her to him, expect that I really wanted a baby by this other stallion for $ value. My stallion is bred great, but has no proven offspring yet.

This was my first attempt this year. But I spent so much last year I don't want a repeat of that and end up with nothing again. She did not get in foal last year. I bought her last year for breeding, and she had had a foal the previous year.

Thanks for the offer to call you, I just may do that. I checked out your website, the family pictures are great. Nice TB's. I will do some reading on that web page you gave me also when I have some time. I am just getting ready to leave work right now and I won't be back online til morning. Nice chatting with you. I appreciate the support.

Joy
Member:
Contilli

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 15, 2005 - 7:23 pm:

Joy-

You are welcome……

Oh please don't give up. At least use your stallion and finish out this cycle and maybe the next one too.

I'm assuming there has not been a culture done on her? Do you know the people which bred her last? Did she have a retained placenta?

I completely understand the $ thing. It is amazing how it adds up!

I hope you have a nice time at work and PLEASE don’t be down!

Sincerely,
Denise
www.BryantFarm.com
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