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Discussion on Dark bay x Cremello = Dark Buckskin?
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Member:
kaarina
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 5:52 am:
Hi there - quick question -
To get a lighter (non sooty) buckskin, does the base color horse bred to a cremello need to be a lighter bay? Will a dark bay (sire black, dam bay) generally produce a dark buckskin when crossed with a cremello or is the tone of buckskin a bit of a mystery until birth?
Thanks!
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 7:11 am:
Hello tamara, though the understanding of makes the background color of "red" dark and rich or light and pale is not well understood. We do know this color is not a pigment and has to do with the reflective qualities of the molecular make up of the hairs. That said I don't think any geneticist would argue with it you want a lighter background color you breed horses with lighter background colors.
DrO
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 9:16 am:
Hi Tamara! Well, I can't speak to the tones of the coat color but I know you're not necessarily guaranteed a buckskin with that cross, just a color with the dilute gene (buckskin, smokey black, palomino). Do you already have this buckskin foal or is this one you're hoping to get? If you have him/her you're not allowed to talk about him/her without posting pictures! 
You can see my cross (dark bay mare by blue roan sire and bay dam crossed with cremello stallion) in this thread: As you can see her color is still up for debate! And you can see the color of her mom here:
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Member:
kaarina
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 9:42 am:
Sara, what a CUTIE!!
I am in the contemplation stage of breeding our morgan mare, she has had one carbon copy dark bay foal before but I'd love to try for something more exotic this time for kicks if I can find a cross I love. The cremello stallion I am thinking of does not produce smokey black and with my mare ought to be 75% chance of a buckskin, 25% palomino. I don't care as long as the baby is friendly and fun but the investigation of this whole color thing is so interesting. The mare is medium brown with very strong dappling and no white at all. I had read somewhere that dark bay morgans tend to have a gene that leans toward the sooty buckskin and I have been curious ever since what factors go into determining the tone!
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 9:51 am:
That's really interesting! I'd never considered the differences in colors between the breeds since I'm a quarter horse person. Your mare sounds a lot like mine. Her foals have mostly been dark bay like her and her last foal, two years ago, was a carbon copy of herself.
She was by a dun stallion and obviously quite different from this year's filly!
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Member:
lilcrow
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 8:25 pm:
Sara, your filly is beautiful and very interesting. I would love to see what color she is in a couple of years. She is the strangest color I think I've ever seen. VERY interesting!
Tamara, if you haven't already checked out the link's on Sara M's comment that she left you particularly the second link, read the discussions. There's some pretty good info about color and cremello vs. perlino. I was an early breeder of color in Quarter Horses, so I've done a bit of study on this topic. It is very unlikely that you will get a buckskin or buckskin/dun if you breed to a cremello unless you have a homozygous black mare. A cremello is a dilute of sorrel and would most likely produce palominos, red duns and dilutes of the red gene. The strong dappling that you mention, I believe, IS the sooty factor. It causes the dark over-lay on the buckskin. That is very much over simplified as there are many modifiers, but they are related. Equine color genetics is a real quagmire, a lot of science and a little bit of luck. If you want a buckskin or buckskin/dun you need to look for a perlino that is homozygous for the black gene. That way he can not produce a red dilute. Best of luck and happy breeding.
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Member:
dsibley
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Posted on Tuesday, Jun 16, 2009 - 8:51 pm:
I, too, find color genetics fascinating. I bred my sorrel overo (tovero?) mare to a cremello the first time, and she produced a gorgeous gold palomino. Dark gold with the cream mane and tail, just a little star on the face, but no other white. Which was fine, as I bred for performance background, not color alone.
This time, I matched her with a stallion who is homozygous for black. I think the baby is going to be black...or dark bay. No qualifying spots again, but I didn't really expect any. My vet said chances of being able to register her as a full paint were minimal at best. However, she is eligible for AWR. Hers was the pic on Dr. O's homepage last time...the one with the funny ears!}
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Member:
kaarina
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 8:45 am:
Neat! Does that sooty gene affect palomino offspring as well I wonder?
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Member:
lilcrow
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 10:41 am:
Yes, it does. I've seen many dappled palominos and some with a darker "varnish" over their base color. What makes it all so very interesting and difficult to predict is where all of these things fall on the continuum, i.e., how the sooty gene expresses itself. Will it be dapples or a very dark overlay. If you look at the picture of Hollywood Dun It Good, you can an expression of the sooty gene on him in a most magnificent way. I've included this link from all breed pedigree that shows a picture of him https://www.allbreedpedigree.com/hollywood+dunit+good
You can see the sooty affect very well, and of course in this picture you can see it also. What a guy.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 1:09 pm:
Funny you should mention Hollywood Dunit Good, Nancy. He's the grandsire of the filly in the other thread. I initially thought she was going to turn out the same color as he is but, as you can see, there's still some debate over what color she truly is. Guess I'll have to let you guys know next spring after her yearling shed!
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Member:
lilcrow
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 17, 2009 - 8:23 pm:
Actually Sara, I was using him because he is the grandsire and a very good example of the sooty gene. Your foal is totally wild. I'll be very interested to see her pictures next year.
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Member:
sdms
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 2:15 pm:
Nancy, I guess I should have figured that out! I'm having one of those months lately.
Here's a good website on color genetics. Of course, the more you know about the genetics of the two horses you're combining the more details it will give on the possible outcomes.
https://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp
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Member:
kaarina
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 18, 2009 - 6:50 pm:
Amazing - the sooty factor is fascinating... found a few examples of palomino morgans where the sooty came thru as well:
https://colormorgans.tripod.com/springtownchampagne.jpg
https://colormorgans.tripod.com/heathermoorgoldbanner.jpg
https://colormorgans.tripod.com/goldhawk.gif
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