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  Discussion on Jos! And others-- thoughts on breeding a C-line Holsteiner mare
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Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 8:08 pm:

This note is directed particularly to Jos, but also to anyone else who has experience breeding Holsteiners.

My wonderful Cor de la Bryere grand-daughter may be reaching the end of her riding career. 2 years ago, as an insurance policy of sorts, I took her to approvals and she made the main mare book. If I can't keep her consistently sound in steady work this winter, I'm considering breeding her in the spring.

She is by the stallion Churchill out of a good Performance-registry American TB mare. Her faults include-- high/low conformation in the front feet, a slight paddle in the RF, a decent but not remarkable trot. Her topline conformation is hard to assess since she suffered major back trauma as a young horse.

The judges commented that she was outstanding from the withers forward, and from the croup back. She has an intelligent but hot temperament, and a fantastic canter. She has good scope and ability over fences, but (perhaps because of her back injuries) does not collect easily. She has beautiful type and a lovely head.

My goal would be to produce an excellent and typey riding horse-- I don't want to add much height (my mare is 16hh), and I want to improve the collection significantly but retain ability and heart over fences.

I had considered the stallion Contango, with the notion of trying to ensure good breed type but improve the athleticism and temperament of the mare. My vet thinks C-line top and bottom will produce a lunatic. Any suggestions?

Here she is, high as a kite:


And here, showing off her hose skills:
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Nov 12, 2009 - 10:31 pm:

Hi Elizabeth, I have a bit of difficulty finding the 'right' Churchill, could you give me the pedigree? And perhaps the TB lines?
And you know normally with the C line in Holstein you would mean the Capitol line and not Cor as he was a SF import.
With a TB mother and the TB in Contango I would expect that to 'contact' more then the further away double Cor. But inbreeding on Cor has not been very succesfull in Holstein. Difficult mouth could be a problem. In the pics your mare though doesn't seem to show very Cor like type so I think that would be OK she [given the above pics looks like a Holsteiner and not like a SF]
I think you should decide if you want a showjumper or a dressagehorse if you really want to 'exceed the breeding possibilities' And then do you want to breed a 'use horse' or a breedhorse' Also makes the choice clearer.
As you might have noticed I myself am due to the foals I've seen no fan of Contango though the mares obviously had a different pedigree then yours. He did give usually very good characters.
More questions then answers I fear
That's what you get if you put me on my 'hobby horse'
Jos
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 12:53 am:

breeding is a gamble at best.. i have two full siblings completely different.. I would suggest that the market is very slow now that you go buy exactly what you want ..you can get a nice deal now and you can still raise that young horse of your dreams..
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
canter

Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 7:23 am:

Elizabeth, breeding is not my thing at all and I have almost know knowledge of it but thought I'd toss this out...and maybe Jos can elaborate as to whether or not it's a good idea.

As you know, my mare is a Holsteiner, that I completely lucked in to. Very nice confirmation, excellent gaits but most of all, a fabulous temperament. She is as solid of a citizen as any one would ever want. She's not an easy ride as she expects to be asked exactly correctly, but when cued right, she's fabulous. But again, her temperament is laid back, calm and on the rare occassion that she does spook, it's small and she's easily settled right back into work.

She is a grandaughter of Landgraf I with LadyKiller on both top and bottom. I don't know if her temperament is normal from these lines, or an aberation. And I have no idea if there are any stallions from these lines available to breed. But given her nature, I thought I'd toss it out to you since you would like to breed a baby that is a little less hot than her mother.
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 10:14 am:

Hello everyone,

Thanks Jos! Of course you know that I'm hoping you will take a ride on this "hobby horse" of yours.

This Churchill is a 17hh 1987 stallion (Cor de la Bryere x Ellis) 211402 1020 80; Ellis is Magister x Vira.

Her dam is Smart Chick (Solar Salute x Pretty Wise); Solar Salute is Windsor Ruler x Solecco, and Pretty Wise is Esprit de France x Pretty Terry.

I want a riding horse, not breeding stock, and I want a dressage horse (your idea of a jumper is more jump than I need-- my nerve tops out just under 1.5m now, and won't be better in 6 years!). Pretty much any decent Holsteiner can jump well enough to entertain me.

If you think her pedigree is too riding-oriented to breed, I know you will tell me. I have produced several nice Spanish riding horses that I wouldn't want to breed, just based on pedigree and experience (as an aside, the stallion Rociero is a wonderful example of a riding stallion that ought not to be bred, also the much-hyped Indiano XVIII, "lion of Spain" and a very inconsistent producer).
Member:
paardex

Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 1:35 pm:

Fran, that's the kind of line and inbreeding Holstein has done a lot and with great succes. And yes the temperament sounds exactly as I would expect of her breeding. Apart from that loads of stallions[and shipped semen] available from that type of lines![Isn't yours the beautiful grey mare? Think you posted a pic of her?]
Elizabeth, I think she resembles the Magister type more then Cor which obviously doesn't mean that she doesn't have a lot from him[in perhaps elasticity?]
I think you will understand very well that I would prefer using a mare with her background and pedigree for a 'using' horse. It IS a F1! Dressage was what I expected and I agree about the 'funjumping part' ofcourse a sound foal with such a pedigree will help you out there![I think even my QH Tax could help ME out]
Given her pedigree I would look for an inbred stallion or one that really 'throws' himself for reasons of consistency [I do NOT think breeding is gambling, although the element of surprise obviously is there!]
I would want to be sure her soundness issue isn't hereditary but I think you wouldn't breed her if you weren't sure about that.
I seem to remember Studbook Z had a young stallion available this year that was inbred on fabulous Holsteiner lines[I looked into that when I contemplated trying to breed with a TB] he should also do for a dressage horse. Their quality of semen is always impeccable and they ship all over the world. If you want I could look it up.
I could also make a list of other candidates if you would like me too. I personally wouldn't immediately choose Contango, although you could end up there for various reasons[availability of semen fi.] but would take the winter to look at more options.
It is ofcourse also a question if you feel you can use frozen semen on her, if not that would limit you or give very high costs.
Ann no offense meant but some things/horses aren't very available even in this market. Depends often on what you are looking for.
Holsteiners of a good quality stay expensive unless you 'bump into them' like Fran did, and with your own you at least know what you start out with. [apart from the obvious breeders virus that is more or less making these remarks]
Jos
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 3:07 pm:

Hi Jos!

I agree that breeding isn't a crapshoot unless you choose to make it one. The tighter the pedigree, the more predictable the range of results. That doesn't mean the horse grows up and goes on to perform, obviously! Of course, you need tightly bred breeding stock, and I agree that she is not quite that. The Spanish horses don't have named lines, but if you research the breeding histories of the older studs, you find that some of them produced very linebred types (the old Guardiola lines before his heirs diluted everything chasing size/color) and the Limosnero lines from the old de la Vega program (again, before the son wanted to make halter-type horses), and so on. Certain stallions also leave their mark through many generations (Vasallo was one-- you will always see fantastic elastic suspension in the trot from this stallion).

I do agree that if you breed a pretty horse to a pretty horse, you do not often get pretty, but tight breeding programs are very disciplined with great depth in the pedigrees.

Yes, I have the means to use frozen semen, and had planned on doing that. I've noticed with Holsteiners that the difference in stud fees between an "acceptable" stallion and an outstanding one truly isn't very large, so I would aim for an appropriate exceptional cross. For a short while, I toyed with Coconut Grove to produce a mostly TB showjumper, but then remembered that I'm not a GP jumper!

I have plenty of time, and she may yet come and stay sound, but I would like to have a very good plan if she does not. Her unsoundness, by the way, is not anything hereditary except in the most loose sense-- self-destructiveness is certainly a dominant horse trait!

Thank you very much for your help!
Member:
canter

Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 4:12 pm:

Jos, yes, the picture of the grey in my profile is of my only horse who does happen to be a Holsteiner. Wish I had more like her, but alas, unless I hit the lottery, that is not going to happen.

Elizabeth, keep us posted as to what you decide to do. Would love to see what happens. As little as I know about the whole thing, I still find it fascinating.
Member:
marieanh

Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 5:44 pm:

I love this post-its like planning the spring garden in the dead of winter.

Is there an expiration date on frozen sperm?
Member:
erika

Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 6:18 pm:

Man, you guys know your stuff!
Just my two cents worth: I have a friend who hunts a beautiful, typie Holsteiner, calm as the day is long, from the Landgraf/Ladykiller line.
Member:
dres

Posted on Friday, Nov 13, 2009 - 6:42 pm:

gamble can mean more then just getting what you want .. mare has foaling issues , foal is born with crooked legs, disease illness, its a gamble..
There are lot of breeders that use the lines you suggest you can google them .. you can get a foal at 3 months old and know what you are getting...
Don't get me wrong.. I love the process of breeding and hoping to get that horse i ordered , i am just here to say .. i have two full sibs and they are exact opposites .. I LOVE THEM BOTH tho..
have fun..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them spots..
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 10:57 am:

Elizabeth, selfdestructiveness is a more dominant trait in some lines then others! You could start surfing the stallions of the 'Holsteiner Verband' They will show the Verband owned stallions and the privately owned. If you find one you like and can't get hold of the semen it is easier to find a similar one. This way you will start with looking through the best.
Have fun! And please keep us posted.
Jos
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 11:05 am:

Oh and look at 'Studbook Zangersheide's stallions with fi Coriano you would get all the best of Holstein! One of their grey stallions would linebreed a few times on Cor but that probably would get you a showjumper instead of a dressage horse!
You can notice that I get excited!
Jos
Member:
erika

Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 11:09 am:

Uh oh, I see a little of what I m in for in KY at the WEG's, Jos! I am going to get a very good education from you.
Next year I will be able to help y'all shop for sires, too, maybe.
Member:
leslie1

Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 12:08 pm:

woot...Im LOVING this conversation :-)
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Nov 14, 2009 - 12:39 pm:

Oh Erika,until now I haven't outdone your Cleo.
But I was thinking..... We'd better find us a nice mare in KY the stallions I can find 'frozen'!
Jos
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Sunday, Nov 15, 2009 - 10:35 am:

Hi Jos,

Wow that Coriano Z is a fantastic jumper. Do you think that Cor de la Bryere on his topline is a concern for my mare? His pedigree is certainly remarkable, but I was especially impressed by his balance, elasticity and power on course. Terrific!
Member:
paardex

Posted on Sunday, Nov 15, 2009 - 12:08 pm:

I would like to see the result, and wouldn't be scared of Cor two or three times at this distance. In case of a filly it would I think augment the chances of her being a broodmare to.
Don't be fooled by the jumping! Those lines have excellent movers too! And as Zangersheide only buys impeccable health,[or mentions problems if they exist] you don't have to be to scared of fi the OCD part.
If you need help getting semen I've been a member from day one and can help perhaps if you want one of their stallions. The young ones are cheap but of the very best motherlines Holstein has[they exchange and thus manage to get the best motherlines that usually are not for sale or lease.
Jos
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