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  Discussion on Pregnant? New horsey Mama
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New Member:
rubygirl

Posted on Friday, Jul 23, 2010 - 5:24 pm:

I am the worst for doing things wrong. Found other "is she expecting" posts here, so I hope I'm not doing the wrong thing. If so, I apologize?

I grew up riding, wanted my own horse my whole life. Hoped to train my own mustang someday. Finally got a horse, a mustang. She went to one TIP trainer who tied her to horses to drag her because they couldn't get her to lead, tied her to a stall because they couldn't get her in one, and she flipped and nearly hung herself. Another TIP trainer took her, put about 200lbs on her (she was skin and bones from what I was told, I'll post a picture of when I first got her, she was still down quite a bit). She was likely to be put down as "dangerous" if she didn't find an adopter.

I got her in March. She'd had free choice hay and COB. I boarded her at a couple of different places once I got her, and had feeding issues. Her herd had an emergency round up, so she was hungry coming off the range with a nursing foal (I have picture from the pens too) though nicely muscled, and then starved. I thought at the time she just feared starving, but over time I've come to suspect she's expecting.

As I've done more research, I've refined her diet some. Mostly free feed hay (local grass hay, which has me worried a bit) and 2 flakes of alfalfa, plus 2 cups of Strategy Healthy Edge once a day with 1 cup soaked flax (the grain is the only way to get her to eat the flax). I add a half dose of a basic mineral supplement with Selenium since I'm in Western Washington.

I'm just worried. Her body has been through a lot, and I know she's a mustang, I know they're hardy, but I've waited 30 years for her, and I'm.... a little overprotective. I have a vet coming to check her Monday, but they are going to palpate, they said U/S is useless once they're visibly pregnant, but I've read so many people who said "vet came and palpated and said she's open" and two weeks later they have a foal.

I got video last night by chance, that looks awfully suspicious to me. I'm a childbirth educator/doula, and if I saw a pregnant woman of normal weight with a belly shape shifting like that, I'd say she's pregnant. Not to mention her back looks like a slowly slumping suspension bridge. She used to have a nice back up there, now it's all DrOoping down like frosting off a warm cake.

I just would feel better getting some feedback from folks who have an eye for this. I know pregnant humans, but I know nuthin' 'bout birthin' no foals!

Sorry for the long ramble. Youtube and I had a war last night, so I'm frazzled, worried, and very tired.

Thanks for any input. :-)

The pics are : off the range, and when I first got her. Maybe not. I think the only picture that made it is her just off the range.

The video links are once she got to a decent weight, and last night.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVGRI94LZ7Q&feature=channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNppJgYUMLk
Member:
mrose

Posted on Friday, Jul 23, 2010 - 11:30 pm:

Hi Ruby girl. First off, what a great face on your mare! And, in the video of her where she's still thin, she is lovely. How long since she's been off the range? Do you have any idea as to when she could have been bred? Have there been any changes in her udder? Her attitude? Of course, the only way to tell for sure is to have her vet checked. A lot of short backed mares can look pg when they are overweight!

If you'll go to the side-bar on this board and look under "nutrition" and maybe also under reproduction or "pregnancy" you'll find good information on feediing and on foaling. And, if she is pg, there are a lot of folks on HA as well as Dr.O who have had a lot of experience with foals and foaling. And...we ALL love baby pictures!

If that girl isn't pg, you'd better get her on a diet quickly! Let us know. Oh..and welcome to HA.
New Member:
rubygirl

Posted on Saturday, Jul 24, 2010 - 12:51 am:

Hi Sara,

Thanks for the welcome. I'm excited about reading this site... I've got piles of books I'm slowly wading my way through. In my usual idiotic fashion I decided to learn the hard way, so a mustang, a traumatized project no less, seemed like a great place to start! I heard her story, and knew I was hooked... It was me or the meat truck. :-(

That said, she's my love, which is exactly what I was hoping for. We're neither of us ones to bond immediately, but we're deep. It's nice to have a friendship, and a willing partner. I just feel bad sometimes that she has a complete neophyte for an owner. :-)

Her herd was an emergency round up in Nov. 2008. She was in the pens until Aug 18th 2009 because she had a late foal with her when the herd was rounded up, so they held her back until the foal was old enough to wean. I thought that meant I'd be guaranteed not to have a pg. mare, but, I've since learned there was a stud inadvertently in with the mares in the pens, one just delivered a few weeks ago, one is due this week. And those are just the ones I know personally. :-)

Additionally, she was with a TIP trainer from August to mid-December where she could have theoretically been exposed to, since the trainer breeds andalusians.

Udder changes were the first thing I noticed. Or teats, rather. I'd never seen them before on her, she'd nursed a foal, but they were so high, I'd never been able to really see them. They keep DrOpping lower and lower. And wiggling. And waving. And saying "peek-a-boo!".

Yesterday I took this picture (hopefully it uploads): it didn't. Darn....


Not terribly exciting, and the difference in size.... normal? A problem?

I've been taking too many pictures of... girly parts and belly shots and.... I have no idea what I'm looking at. Just met two mares that delivered recently, but comparing mares is about as useful as comparing women. Not much.

She's normally perky and feisty, but in spite of having an abnormally mild Washington summer, she's acting... like a pregnant woman. A few months ago she was napping constantly. She's been turned out round the clock now, so she'll get down to roll, but the ground is too hard, so she won't stay down long enough to nap. She does not.want.to.move but will if our little shetland gets too hyper and needs a reminder who's boss.

She gets really freaked out if she runs out of food (not surprising given the emergency round up and the first trainer.... She's very picky about what she'll eat though, alfalfa seems to be her thing right now (which she didn't really used to like). And she wants the fescue looking stuff outside the fence like crazy. The grass hay I put out with her she's taken to using as bedding..... She no likes.

She's never been cuddly, but she wants to be a pocket pony all of a sudden. She's letting me touch her just about anywhere I like, which is new, she was pretty badly abused before I got her, and didn't like humans much at all, unless they were oh, 30 feet away. Frankly when I was pg I didn't want anyone near me, but who knows. :-)

Mostly she just has this aura of "is this DONE yet?". I've been pregnant in the summer... I so feel for her! No kick up her heels, no snappy playful. Sweet, loving, VERY protective of me... But mostly just wants to seem to nap, or have me pet her, or rest her head on my shoulder. Tinged with "back off, pony girl, I'm napping" (the poor shetland, she's smart enough to know when Ruby is in a mood!).

She does get irritated and kick at her tummy at times, or turn and nip at it. She's eating drinking and pooping well, I can hear her gut sounds about 5 ft away from her. :-)

I dunno. Why don't they come with pop up indicators to tell us they're pregnant? It would save us all a lot of confusion. Except then we'd think the indicator was broken I reckon!

The fescue thing scares me. They didn't used to think that was an issue here, but they've been actually testing pasture and turns out endophyte is an issue in OR/WA.... Or so says Oregon State, but like medical information.... slow to disseminate. Everything they call grass hay here looks like tall fescue to me.

Thanks for the response.... My husband keeps saying "if she has a foal, we'll know". Yeah, right. Because I'm going to suddenly become all laissez-faire about my horse. Good luck with that dear... :-)

He knows me better. I have two speeds when it comes to things like this, obsessed, and really obsessed. It's one of those "endearing" family traits. I'm the mellow one!

Is it Monday yet?
Member:
mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jul 24, 2010 - 10:52 am:

So...when did you say the vet is coming? I missed that, but usually am on the internet when I'm in need of another cup of coffee or a glass of wine, so maybe you said. The only way to tell, of course, is to get her checked if you want to know more than a few days before foaling. If she was removed from the pens in August, if she was bred it had to happen at the trainer's. Her teats "DrOoping" can be caused by excess fat as well as pregnancy, unless they are waxing up. Just to confuse matters further, some mares that have had foals in the past will develop a false pregnancy. So, get the vet to check her so you'll know for sure. You can't always go by a mare not showing in heat either, as some mares are "silent" unless there is a stud around, and some even then. From her looks, she looks pg, but...she could not be also.

I don't know if OR or WA state universities have web sites about the local hays or not. If not, CO state has a great web site with pictures of different plants that grow in the west so you can identify the hay she is getting for sure. Or, ask the local Ag. extension guys; they are usually really up on local feeds, hays, etc.I'd find out not only because of the concern of fescue, but also so you can know the protein content of the hay.

IF she is pregnant and fescue was going to be a problem, I THINK it would have caused an abortion before this point, but am not positive since it isn't a problem here in S. UT.

BTW, what is a TIP trainer?

Oh, and you'll find you aren't the only one that's has COD when it comes to their horses!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jul 25, 2010 - 8:06 am:

Welcome Ruby,
Visually it can be much harder to judge a horse's pregnancy status than you can in humans because of the large abdomen and large bowel response to forage. If she was with stallions following giving birth for more than a few weeks chances are good she is pregnant. Much of what else is being discussed is a bit moot until we see if she is pregnant but two things deserve comment.

Fescue problems don't usually surface until birthing time draws near but for more on this see HorseAdvice.com » Diseases of Horses » Reproductive Diseases » Birthing Problems » Fescue Toxicity and Lactation Failure.

Be sure you watch your mare so that she does not grow too fat, above a 6 on the Henneke condition scale. For more on this see HorseAdvice.com » Horse Care » Routine Horse Care » Estimating Weight, Height, and Body Condition Scoring. I am sure the veterinarian on Monday will be able to help you judge this.
DrO
New Member:
rubygirl

Posted on Sunday, Jul 25, 2010 - 7:05 pm:

Thanks for the feedback. :-)

I keep looking at the BCS info and I think she's a pretty solid 5. There's no crease at all down her back, I can't find any evidence of fat deposits or cellulite anywhere. For a very brief time, her ribs were no longer visible, but slowly I'm able to count more and more of them, even at a distance. They're not obvious like when I first got her, but visible, even in pictures.

Her tail head didn't used to be so prominent either. The rest of her looks pretty good. Her shoulders and withers don't look as well padded to me as other horses I've seen judged to be a 5, but she doesn't look like a 4 to me either. But I'm new at all this. It will be good to have a pro look at her!

A message board I'd posted to suggested a blood test might be more reliable than U/S or palpation? The vet clinic didn't suggest one, but I suppose if we're going to have to sedate her for palpation, drawing blood might be possible at the same time, right? Is that less subjective than palpation? How reliable are blood tests in late pregnancy? For humans, not very much, so I'd assumed the same for horses, but a definitive answer would be a good thing if blood tests can give a more reliable answer.

Sara, a TIP trainer is a contracted trainer with the Mustang Heritage Foundation. They take mustangs that typically would be sale authority, and train them and receive a small payment when the horse is adopted. It's a program to try and get more of the "unadoptable" mustangs adopted.

Glad I'm not alone being a little OTT. :-)

I get ribbed about it by my family, but I was the same way with my kids. Besides, I've waited a lifetime for my own horse. If I could wrap her in bubble wrap and hire armed guards... I probably would. :-)

Poor girl, a lifetime of desire is a lot to live up to. Thankfully she's a spectacular success. I think she's the best horse ever. I'm not biased. No, not at all!

Tomorrow morning is almost here! Yay!
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2010 - 7:29 am:

I think a palpation will be very reliable as long as the clinician is experienced. As to the blood tests it's reliablility will depend on which test is run and at what stage of pregnancy. For more on this subject see HorseAdvice.com » Equine Reproduction » Horse Breeding & Artificial Insemination » Pregnancy Diagnosis.
DrO
New Member:
rubygirl

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2010 - 5:21 pm:

Thanks Dr. Oglesby. I appreciate the feedback. Slowly trying to read and absorb. This is kind of the trial by fire of new horse ownership!

So, darn. Maybe hoping for a definitive answer was a bad idea.

Vet sedated/palpated her. She said she had vaginal discharge that did not look purulent, that she was open, but she had a fluid filled uterus. She said she could not palpate the entire thing, that it was enlarged as far as she was able to feel.

She said she may have been bred and had a low-grade infection, and had... I don't know the term but in a human it would be a missed miscarriage. She said it was likely that she just had an infection because of something like that.

She said there were no signs of infection in the udder, but she couldn't get a good feel, Ruby is EXTREMELY touchy back there, and was pretty freaked out about being sedated, so she kept trying to kick the vet when she got anywhere near her udder (she stood still at least to be palpated, but she wasn't letting her ANYWHERE near her udder!) She said it was rather poochy (it's more even now than it was), but just felt like fat, not hot, or hard, like mastitis or bagging up.

She said however her BCS was a 5, she was perfect, she didn't need to lose or gain, just maintain her diet and adjust as needed to keep her where she's at. The udder thing just went "poof" last week, so if she doesn't want me to let her lose any, would she really have fatty deposits in her udder that just appeared overnight?

She said there was no need for a blood test, since a miscarriage wouldn't show up.

Said we could lavage to clean it out, but we'd have to tease her to get her into season to get the cervix open to do the lavage. She's been around a stud at the barn though the last two weeks (though he just got gelded), and hasn't shown heat except with a different gelding the day she was moved up to the barn early May.

I don't understand, some of these things seem mutually exclusive. I wish I could have just had the blood test done, because from my perspective, if her body thinks she's pregnant enough that she isn't cycling, she might have lingering hormones? Maybe a hormone panel of some sort might show something?

And if she's not pregnant, and she's not over-conditioned, how do we explain the rapid expansion of her gut in a 2-3 week period?

And why would she have vaginal discharge that's not purulent if she has an infection?

I wish I knew enough to better understand, because all I am is more confused, and since she's become rather lethargic, now I'm scared that maybe she has a systemic infection that's low-grade? She's just not her perky self, and she looks dog tired, all the time, when she's on soft bedding, she sleeps a lot, when she's turned out it's a dry lot, so she won't lie down anymore except to roll, but she just hangs her head and looks like she's tired, and doesn't really want to move much.

UGH. I wanted less worry, not more! The vet said that uterine infections aren't dangerous, does anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks....
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jul 26, 2010 - 9:03 pm:

She could not palpate the entire uterus because it was so large though she could not feel the foal? How did she rule out pregnancy as a cause for the enlarged uterus? There are stages of pregnancy where this would be normal for pregnant. See the article on pregnancy diagnosis for more on this.

As to the questions on the uterine discharge what is the nature of the discharge and where is it originating? You may have to use a vaginal speculum and a thorough vaginal exam to answer this.

If a blood test is what you want just follow the recommendations in the article on pregnancy diagnosis.
DrO
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