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Discussion on Looking into lineage
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 11:02 am:
Can someone answer a question for someone who knows absolutely nothing about breeding, bloodlines, or charts?
When looking at the 'family tree' of a horse and you notice that a particular stud was used multiple times, what's considered normal and what's considered inbreeding?
ie. Seventy years back a sire's parents may share the same grandfather.
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Member:
Canyon28
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 1:04 pm:
I am pretty knowledgeable about the AQHA lines, but you didnt say what breed this is. In the early days of the breed, they were breeding for a certain type. When they had a quality stud or mare, they would use this horse on its grand get to 'set' the type they were trying to achieve. Old Sorrel, the founding sire of the King Ranch legacy, was used in this way. he was routinely bred to daughters of his sons, and his sons were bred to other offspring of other sons. Golden Chief, an outcross to most AQHA lines, was also bred in this way, he was bred to daughters of his son, Dexter, or daughters of some of his other sons, like Golden Chief II, etc. When this type of line breeding is done, it is important to have an outcross line every couple of generations. So, Dexter was bred to daughters of Silvertone (an outcross stallion) that were out of daughters of Golden Chief.
we have to remember in those days, horses were used much more than they are now for everyday ranch use, and many ranches had hundreds of horses, so they had a good gene pool to pick and choose the best offspring from, and they did cull anything that wasnt the type they were looking for. Nowadays, there are only a handful of ranches that still raise horses numbering in the hundreds. For the small breeder, with only a few offspring per year, it is pretty hard to do any sucessful line breeding and be able to cull at the same time those that dont fit the type, so we are starting to see some genetic and conformational problems that have shown up from failure to cull and also from breeding the same horse over and over without a large gene pool to cross with.
In the cutting horse industry, this has started to get pretty serious, as most people involved in this want to only breed to the most proven stallions, and they cross them back and forth over and over, hoping to get that big money earner. The problem is that several of the best stallions also have very serious genetic faults that are being passed on unknowingly until the foal is born. The outcross lines are not being utilized to give the horse more vigor, so the breed is suffering, due to inbreeding of certain lines that were faulty to begin with. We must remember that along with the good, comes the bad, so culling is very necessary, but is not being done much anymore.
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 1:51 pm:
There is inbreeding and there is linebreeding. Linebreeding from my perspective is fairly harmless (I have bought warmbloods with the same sires at least 4 generations back and had no trouble) but inbreeding has much more potential to intensify all traits, both good and bad. Some people want a single trait so badly, they will inbreed to try to consolidate that trait regardless of the risks involved. Left in the hands of an extremely experienced breeder, both inbreeding and linebreeding can work out. However, it can backfire quite badly as well so is not for the feint of heart.
Here is a website that explains it in simple terms.
https://www.bbarcquarterhorses.com/Genetics/geneticsshortcourse.html
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 1:53 pm:
The breed is Egyptian Arabian. I've been able to check-out ancestors all the back to the mid-1800's--pretty cool stuff! There weren't any names repeated until around the 1930's when an apparently "very influential" stallion named Nazeer was around.
Thank you for your post. I read it a couple times to get the gist. Other breeding practices couldn't be too different could they? And I guess it would make sense then to have that influential stud show up a few times.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 5:26 pm:
Debbie, I have some great references on Egyptian Arabians if you have a particular question I might be able to help you. Also, The Pyramid Society has a lot of good information.
Nazeer was "very influential" to say the least. He was so influential that very few Egyptian lines today don't have Nazeer in the pedigree, usually several times as in your horse's case.
Your horse wouldn't be considered "inbred" at all. Depending on how much Nazeer is in the pedigree he would be considered "line bred"
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Wednesday, Jun 29, 2005 - 5:33 pm:
CP-if you would like to know more about some of the horses in your horse's pedigree, email me his name and I can look up some stuff for you. I have pictures of a lot of the old Egyptian horses, a lot of old Arabian Stud books, and other reference books. I've also got a lot of information on Arabians in general and Egyptians in particular. I'd be happy to help "educate" you. I think it's a lot of fun to know about some of the history of horses in a pedigree.
Nazeer, by the way, was beautiful. He was a race horse and the head stud at the royal stud farm in Egypt.
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Member:
Cpacer
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Posted on Thursday, Jun 30, 2005 - 11:33 am:
Thanks Sara, that's nice of you. It is very exciting to learn all this stuff! When I set out to get my first horse I wanted an old quarter horse, but I've really enjoyed learning about the Egyptians and am so happy that fate twisted the way it did. I have been able to see a lot of pictures on the sire's side, less on his dam's so maybe I'll email you what I know about her lines. My horse actually still lived in a pasture with his dam when I got him, and I'm bummed I didn't pay more attention to her knowing now how key the dam is (don't know what I was thinking).
Interesting fact about Nazeer too! I have much to learn on this topic.
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Friday, Jul 1, 2005 - 12:11 pm:
Yes Nazeer was very beautiful and very popular.
Hey Sara you wouldn't by chance have seen a picture of Zodiac Matador have you? When I do an online search if bogs my puter down.
A good magazine for arabians I think is Arabian horse world, lots of pics and info on key farms.
I do like egyptian arabians but I am different I prefer the old stockier type with a dish face. I my self have polish arabians which I bought for their size. I am a big girl, can't look like I am riding a toy. Some day I would like to start participating in endurance rides.
Arabians are very adicting. My husband once asked me why I have no bad habits, and I replied I do Arabians!
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Friday, Jul 1, 2005 - 1:50 pm:
Cheryl - I'll look and see if I can find one.
Arabians are addicting! I've been hooked for over 40 yrs.
and...Egyptians aren't all small. Our black stallion is 16h and our gray is 15.3h; good sized for Arabs.
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Member:
Chohler
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Posted on Friday, Jul 1, 2005 - 3:42 pm:
Thanks for looking!
Wow most of the ones in my area are much smaller.
My 4 yr old girl is 15.2 and my zodiac matador granddaughter I am not sure how tall she will get but, you should see the movement on this girl, I was asked to take her to nationals but couldn't afford to. Thats ok I like them for me not others!
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