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  Discussion on Spaying mares
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Member:
Heidim

Posted on Friday, Sep 23, 2005 - 10:54 pm:

Has anyone had any experience with spaying mares? I'm asking because our seven-year-old mare is quite aggressive (almost stallion-like) in the way she wants to control the herd. She's unusually quiet when ridden until the horses around her act in ways she doesn't like. For example, she will crowhop if the horse in front of her gets too far ahead on the trail and really gets bent out of shape when working in the arena with other horses doing their own thing. The last time we went on a trail ride, she was especially surly and we noticed then that she was in heat. I guess my thought is that if stallions become docile when gelded, maybe this mare will become more docile if spayed. Thoughts anyone? She is a grade mare, so nothing is really lost registration wise.
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Saturday, Sep 24, 2005 - 7:32 am:

I feel I need to explain a bit more about this mare's history. We bought her at the age of five for my then nine-year-old daughter. This went against my better judgment, as I thought she was too young for such a young rider, but her trainer/owner assured me she was perfect. Anyway, Lacey acted fine for about a month. Then my daughter started having trouble. From what I can gather, she never reprimanded Lacey when Lacey tested her. I didn't notice until things got out of control. I'm well aware that this all contributes to Lacey's issues. However, she seems inordinately aggressive with and tuned into the other horses around here, even with an experienced rider at the controls. I contacted her previous owner and he blames my hay, which I agree is richer than most grass hays but works fine for our mules. I'd really like to work with this mare, but prefer not to fight nature if spaying will make a difference. Her previous owner did say she would try to dominate the herd, but I had no idea she'd be so aggressive. We haven't ridden Lacey much over the last year, as she has been busy being a mom. (In case you're wondering, we bred her before she started acting up.) Anyway, this pretty much put her out of commission as a riding horse for this past season, which probably doesn't help the situation. I'm also wondering if a beginning rider will ever be able to ride this mare again, seeing as she is now wise to testing everyone who gets on her.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 9:29 am:

I just have a bunch of maybe's. Yes spaying may help Heidi, but like gelding a horse, it is not a cure all and in a small percentage of cases will not change any aspect of the personality. And, yes a beginning rider may be able to ride this horse again, but only after extensive training and perhaps a bit of age.
DrO
Member:
Wgillmor

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 10:09 am:

My daughter's mare was similarly aggressive to what you describe. Her aggression appeared tied to her heat cycle. After spaying, she was much better, although still the dominant mare in her herd. It probably took over six months for the full behavior change to complete. Of course, one instance doesn't prove causation -- she may have just reached the time in her life when she was ready to settle down. She was much older than your mare (Around 18.)
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 1:27 pm:

Thanks for the input. Another question, Dr. O. I understand that mares pretty much go out of heat from, say, November to springtime. Will how she acts then be a good indicator of how she will act once spayed?
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Sep 25, 2005 - 5:43 pm:

I don't know enough about spaying to know how much it would help the aggression in your mare; however, it sounds to me like a lot of what you describe relate to training issues, nor hormonal issues.
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Monday, Sep 26, 2005 - 12:09 am:

I do suspect that training is what's needed here. Does anyone have ideas on what's the best regimen to help a mare like Lacey? Other than her insecurity with the horses around her, she is very well broke.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Sep 26, 2005 - 7:38 am:

Perhaps Heidi, but some of these aggressive mares have hormone secreting tumors that don't always respect the normal seasonality of a mares cycle, for more see Equine Diseases » Reproductive Diseases » Trouble Settling Mares & Stallion Infertility » Granulosa Cell Tumors in Mares.
DrO
Member:
Miamoo

Posted on Monday, Sep 26, 2005 - 1:25 pm:

Is it possible that she sees all of you (people and horses) as members of her band as sees herself as the leader. Horses always fight harder when they see themselves in charge. They are not willing to lose that position. If this is the case spaying will not fix it.

Ella :-)
Member:
Dres

Posted on Monday, Sep 26, 2005 - 1:44 pm:

Is it possible that her dominate behavior is really a scared response.. ?? I had a mare that was awful to ride in a full arena...she would pin her ears, flare her nostrils, bare her teeth, swish her tail when anything came near us.. even lunged at them at times... after a bit I realized she was afraid of the other horses and ''puffed'' up to look big and hopefully scare them away from her before she could get hurt.. .
anyway... it was something I really never could change... I just was very aware and rode her carefully and ready when in a crowd...
in the herd situation she always stayed on the outside of the herd... BUT if anyone came near her she would fight hard and RUN....

just a thought....
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with SPOTS..
Member:
Heidim

Posted on Monday, Sep 26, 2005 - 4:09 pm:

The mare was very well behaved for riding when we got her, but I discovered last week that her previous owner has a reputation for cutting food and feeding very low protein feed to make his animals behave better. It's possible Lacey became her real self after living with us for a while. I've had other dominant mares but she seems, well, different. For example, last week she was surrounded by three of our mules, who were happily grazing (as was she) about ten feet away from her. Not one of these animals changed position and yet, out of the blue, this mare leaped straight up into the air, squealing. She squeals often, even when I'm riding her. It's possible she's more vocal than most, but this is one of the behaviors that makes me thing she's got something hormonal going on. I read the information you suggested, Dr. O., and also called my regular vet. He recommended Regimate for a few weeks to see if it made a difference in her behavior, but that was before your note about possible tumors. Sounds like it should have him check for them as well.
New Member:
Kbarnes

Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 10:54 am:

Not trying to hi-jack this thread, but - protein gets blamed for a lot of things it really shouldn't.

There are MANY excellent articles on feeding that 'bust myths' - not to direct anyone away from this site, but doing a search on the web and finding articles from Kentucky Equine Research, and other such reliable sources (Main Points is another) will tell you protein isn't the 'bad thing' everyone thought it was.

Good hay should be the center of a good diet - and I may be more concerned with her flat out getting more 'calories' than she needs vs blaming sheer protein.

I had an alpha mare that was truly aggressive, all her life. She ruled every horse at our farm - not to the point she ever hurt anyone (horse), but she moved the herd - she controlled newbies to the herd, who socialized with who, and when, etc. Over the years she got a bit less occupied with the task but still remained the same, despite the fact her training DID progress to a good level, and eventually took a place in my lesson program.

I also now own a mare who is WITCHY - not alpha as she does not rule over anyone - but regardless of training (and she is now becoming pretty well trained) she is opinionated about everything, she is mildly skittish at things, and is not 'joy and sunshine'. Personally, I'd like to have some more investagative vet work done (chiro as well) because she has been this way since I met her as an unbroke 3 year old (she is now 13).

Training is a good place to start, next to ruling out medical problems (every thing from soreness from saddle fit to any kind of tumors).

Alpha horses will certainly exploit a novice rider/handler.

A 'timid' horse that gets into self preservation mode will also need a TRUE LEADER.

And with these kinds of horses training will make them better, but beware. It is often a catch 22. The more trained a horse becomes, or shall I say the more 'in tune' a horse becomes to a TRULY SKILLED handler/rider - the more the horse will NOTICE an unskilled handler/rider.

Training can change bad habits, training can make desirable habits - but that doesn't often change their personality at the core - typically they will require a skilled rider/handler (or at least the supervision of one) thru out their life time.

Novice, or should I say inconsistent, handling will revert them quickly.

Children and novice/beginner horse people of all ages deserve to learn from horses that are easy to get along with. Nothing kills the passion of a budding equestrian more than a horse with 'attitude issues'. I have made a living teaching beginner level riders for the past 15 years and I am very passionate about this point.


The horse deserves some kind of investigation and 'intervention' (mostly so it can continue to be in a caring home and not end up on some auction lot) - but the rider, esp the child rider, does not deserve to have to deal with the scope of the problems you mentioned.

I guess you have to ask yourself how far YOU are willing to go to find a solution - and how much effort are you willing to put into maintaining a routine for this horse to not relapse into these behaviors (consistent training, perhaps reoccuring chiro or massage, yearly saddle fittings, etc)- and how 'solid' is this horse ever going to be for your daughter?

I wish you all luck!!!
Member:
Sully

Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2006 - 11:35 pm:

Heidi....I purchased a mare that had a tumor the size of a basket ball taken out of her several years ago before I purchased her. She also lost that ovary. She was always known to just be ill tempered and whitchy. After a year and a half in pasture, she was put back into training. Totally different horse. She is sooooo sweet and quiet now. Her hormones must of been off the chart before and she probably had a lot of pain when being ridden.
I talked with another guy who had a mare with a tumor on her ovary, and they put that horse on regiment. Guess is shrinks the tumor.
Sully
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