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  Discussion on Verifying pregnancy
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Member:
Kami

Posted on Friday, Jun 2, 2006 - 8:48 pm:

I have a mare that I thought was pregnant.

She was palped at 30 days and the vet said yes. She was palped again at 8 mos (because I didn't want to increase feed/supplement if she wasn't still pregnant). Again the vet said yes.

When she hit 4 weeks overdue, I asked the a different vet to come out and check her because he is closer and can come on shorter notice.

He said she is definitely not pregnant. I asked the vet how certain he was and he said "I held her entire uterous in my hand and can say I am 100% certain that she is not pregnant."

Aside from significant obesity, she has no other signs of pregnancy. So I'm hoping I can count on this information because I'm going to start onto a weight loss/exercise program to bring her down to a healthier weight (she's around BS 6-7)

My question is, how likely is it to mis-diagnose pregnancy at 8 mos when palping the mare? The time frame is certain. She was accidentally in the same paddock (so exposed) to a stallion for a period of 6 hours one time only. The vet today said that if she had been pregnant at 8 mos, then she would have had to expel the foal in some way. She has never done anything like this or shown any signs that it might have happened without my finding the fetus.

At the 8 mos check, I asked for blood work, but the vet said that palping her was the only way to be certain because the blood work can be wrong. Is palping normally more accurate than blood work at 8 mos?

I like both vets equally. Both vets have been practicing well over 20 years. The first vet is actually a breeder as well and that is why I used him for this issue. But, now I'm not sure how much confidence I have in him. I can see mis-diagnosing at 30 days... I actually can't understand how you can tell at 30 days without a ultra-sound.

So far, I've told two people that she turned out to just be obese of my own doing. Both know that she was checked at 8 mo and said 'there's no way to get it wrong at 8 mo'. Somehow, I have to think there is, since I have an example of it out there in the barn. My question is how common is it? Since I'm now doomed to have this same conversation over and over again with all the people who've been waiting for this foal to FINALLY arrive.

Kami
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Jun 3, 2006 - 11:15 am:

Are you positive there is no way this mare could have aborted? Is she out in pasture at all, or always in a pen or stall? I know of cases where the mare has been confirmed pg by ultra-sound, but aborted late term. Mares can be very secretive, and if out in pasture it's very possible that dogs or a wild animal ate the remains.

It's my personal opinion that palpation isn't 100%; that there is always room for some error. Infact, even ultrasounds aren't always accurate. But, they are 99% of the time imo.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 9:45 am:

Hello Kami,
Are those who are suggesting "you can't get it wrong" that he intentionally misled you? Either he did or you lost the foal but we cannot make that decision here. We explain the details of palpation and pregnancy diagnosis at Equine Reproduction » Horse Breeding & Artifical Insemination » Pregnancy Diagnosis.

But the way to look at pregnancy diagnosis and in fact any diagnostic procedure is to separate the "objective" findings from the "appraisal" of those findings. There are no objective findings that guarantee a pregnancy so no appraisal is 100% accurate. The interesting question is what was the objective 8 month finding: did he actually feel what he thought was a foal?
DrO
Member:
Kami

Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 11:48 am:

When I had him out, I told him it was specifically because I didn't want to take her into the extra feed and supplements if she wasn't still pregnant (so that was the objective?).

He actually said "yup, I hate to tell you this, but there's still a foal in there". This was an unplanned breeding and he knew I would have prefered her to NOT be in foal. So, I can't speak to his objective findings because we didn't talk on that level. This would have been the first time I had a mare foal, so I had him check my vacine schedule for her and he said it was okay. So there's no way that I mis-understood him.

At this point I'm going with the belief that she is not pregnant. Her feed has been cut and I'm not treating her as past due anymore.

No one thinks this was an intentional mis-leading. I don't think there was any bad intent involved and this is a great vet for lameness issues. Unfortunately, because I think he's a good vet, the horse people all know he's my vet and that he checked her. That is part of why I wanted to be able to say that they get it wrong xx% of the time anyway. For me he's at 50%. Since, most horse people have been pushing me to use a different vet, I guess part of it is that I want to be able to defend using this vet. (He has a difficult personality)

At this point, my standard response is that, I have no idea how they know WHAT they're feeling in there and obviously its not 100%. I have heard of many false negatives in rescue horses who end up having a foal. This is just the first time I've heard of a false positive that late in the game, especially when the breeding date is known.

I really do not think she aborted the foal.
- She has never been off (even for a couple hours) either physically or mentally. I work from home and see them every few hours. First feed is around 6am and last check is after evening news at 11:30pm. I generally see them at mid-morning, noon, mid afternoon and evening feed because I walk around the farm when I take breaks from work. They all come up to me when I'm out and she's never missed.
- She's never DrOpped even a slight bit of weight any where on her body. I watch the top line, ribs, rumps and width more than their stomach.
- She has become more and more "studish/Arabian", so I was watching closer to make sure I didn't need to separate her to protect the less able horses. I was thinking that was from hormones, but now I think it was a combination of increased feed and spring/cycling. Her cycling wasn't a concern before because she has been pregnant before and did seem to go through cycles. I have another mare here who is without a doubt pregnant and she also appeared to be cycling with the rest of the mares. But since she's bagged up and dripping, I have no question that she's pregnant and due any day now.
- Remember, this all stated because she was in the same paddock with the stud. She's not a broodmare, so her cycles weren't known/followed and the stud wasn't seen mounting her. But because he thought she was pregnant at 30 days out, she was treated as pregnant in a 'better safe than sorry' approach.

This mare was never ultra-sounded because she's a breed that is not at high risk for twins, she has never had twins and I have to haul 1 1/2 hours one-way to get an ultra-sound.

Thanks for the responses. I was just wondering how accurate palpation is. I think in the future I will insist on bloodwork, since all I wanted to do was verify if she needed to go into the extra feeds/supplements.

Initially I was a little angry about the excess costs, missed lessons, and dealing with "I told you so" from the local horse people.

All in all, this was an unplanned breeding, so I'm glad there isn't the additional foal to deal with. This mare has a 'following' of people who've been coming over to watch this pregnancy, waiting to see her baby and looking forward to seeing the babies play together. They aren't horse people, so I don't have to defend my vet's name/reputation with that group and they'll have to be content with just one baby.

BTW: Now I know that there's a shot that can prevent pregnancy for an unplanned breeding. I didn't know that then.
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2006 - 11:24 am:

Wow! This must have been very frustrating. I was told once by a vet that it is sometimes hard to palpate accurately when they are from 6-8 mo. because a full bladder can feel like a pregnancy.

Is this true Dr. O?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2006 - 1:15 pm:

Hmmm not at that gestation range, 3 to 6 can sometimes be difficult but the article I reference above explains why. The objective findings was that he "felt the foal". That is a low error finding.
DrO
New Member:
Shiloh

Posted on Tuesday, Oct 24, 2006 - 9:03 pm:

My mare was accidentally let out of her stable in my absence and was bred with a stallion tied out nearby (I was told this had been seen but no one attempted to stop it). I am just trying to wean my mare from her recent foal and definitely did not want her to become pregnant again. I live on a small island in the Caribbean and vets do not visit horses to check on such a thing as a suspected pregnancy. Tell me is there any way I can tell myself whether she is or isn't or do I have to just wait and hope?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 12:08 pm:

Michael ways to diagnose pregnancy, including at home, are found at, Equine Reproduction » Horse Breeding & Artificial Insemination » Pregnancy Diagnosis.
DrO
Member:
Cspanhel

Posted on Wednesday, Oct 25, 2006 - 12:44 pm:

Kami, I really sympathize with your situation as I've had trouble with vets misdiagnosing non-pregnancies this year as well, to wit: Mare #1, in foal at 50 days, not in at 96, but has yet to show heat, does not respond to Lutalyse, and body continues to change in the pregnant direction (IF she is pregnant, she is approaching 170 days with no heat cycle); Mare #2, @ 18 days, vet says too much fluid to be pregnant, but is now 90 days + pregnant; Mare #3, at 14 days, vet says embryo way too small to be viable, but is now 45 days+ pregnant. !!!

I used 3 vets for all of this, all with more than 20 years repro experience each...they have all been wrong in various ways!!!

cynthia
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