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  Discussion on Breeding - culture/cytology for 'safe' live cover
Author Message
New Member:
Kbarnes

Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 10:01 am:

Hello!

I just read someone elses post (Horseman) regarding the idea of a culture result to safe guard a stallion from spreading nasties in the business of live cover.


What is a good policy on this? I try to separate truthful information from 'old wives tale' kind of information - I know MANY people who stand a stallion who believe full out that this piece of paper is protection enough for their stallion (and thus the other 10 mares he may cover in the breeding season). Which is where I find myself (no ticket, no laundry). BUT by reading the article, I am back at square one.

I have not poured thru this entire web site yet (just became a member 2 days ago) so there may be an article that will / can answer my question on this.

Would a 'dirty' mare 'infect' a stallion? Is it different for a stallion given the fact his penis does not offer the same environment as a mares reproductive tract? (thinking of the things you would culture/cytology for)

Right now I have a mare whom I asked the vet to 'culture' to be ready to do AI (chilled semen). The results came back positive for 4 things (one was psudomonis / spelling??? and one was strep and the other two I can't remember of the top of my head) - BUT since I was at the mares head, I am not not entirely sure the vet DID the cytology scrape - because I didn't hear anything back for about 2 weeks (and shouldn't cytology results be had quicker?).

On the other end of the breeding topic....

I owned a stallion for about 2 years that I bred (live cover) to a very small number of mares, then gelded. I plan to purchase another stallion after I acquire a few more good mares - and while standing him public 'live cover' isn't my main objective, I would likely be doing live cover with my own mares and shipping semen to others.

I can't help but think of many medium sized breeding farms where they indeed have a 'herd sire' that runs freely with the herd of mares. In a closed herd, with a medium sized population like that - with economics and time - do they culture/cytology every mare every year? how many do this?


(Bringing up to the farm and culturing 10 - 15 mares?!?! and I only 'say it' like that because on many medium size farms/operations like this often the broodmares are lacking in regular farrier care and I always hear gripes about how time consuming it is to admin deworming)

What is the best PLAN for a small to medium size operation that may do both live cover and AI - for spreading of infection?

I do not breed my mares every year (every other year) so WHEN would be the best time to have the culture/cytology done (and thus clearing out infections) in a mare that is not bred every year on her foal heat or 2nd heat?

Also - what is your opinion on not having culture/cytology done on a maiden mare? Many stallion owners do not require it (of course if they are shipping semen they are not worried about their stallion coming into contact with a mare) - does that mean a maiden mare owner shouldn't do it?
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 11:11 am:

Welcome Kirsten,
The problem is that culture mis-identifies mares as having a problem when frequently they don't. The notion that it might protect stallions from venereal disease has not been well investigated.

However common culture practices do not identify the serious venereal pathogens like CEM or veneral warts very well. But these are not the lion's share of the problems with "dirty" mares. Their problem is that common contaminants and opportunist like strep, ecoli, and to a lesser degree pseudomonas are not cleared well like most mares do. The problem appears to be not the organism so much as it is the mare's immune response in most cases. Some argue the response is too weak others have said perhaps too strong.

In general on a small breeding operation like you describe with no history of problems I would recommend you do cytology on your mares just prior to breeding and culture those that are positive. In all fairness I should point out that one study identified a small population of mares which may have had an infection problem but negative cytology. Ship semen with a wide spectrum antibiotic containing extender. Testing maiden mares is a bit like doing pregnancy checks on those that have never been bred.
DrO
Member:
Kbarnes

Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 1:54 pm:

Thank you for the answer and conversation on the topic.

Your last comment - about testing maiden mares. Is there not any way a maiden mare 'could' be contaminated, considering even external conformation like a recessed anus? (just asking, wanted to be sure this was not some kind of 'wives tale'). Is this because they have a hymen? (which can break in human women with out having intercourse). And then of course if you are a stallion owner how do you KNOW the person is being truthful about the status of the mare? Would it be bad business practice to want ALL mares coming to your stallion (esp for live cover) to be 'examined'?


So if a mare gets bred with out cytology/culture (think the large scale pasture breeding situation) - what are some of the 'problems' that may crop up if the mare was not 'clean' (problems with the foal, abortion etc).

One could say (on the level of heart break or sheer economics) not getting a mare pregnant by the 3rd, 5th, 7th attempt because you didn't do pre-breeding cytology is aggrivating - losing a foal late in the pregnancy or even after birth because you didn't do cytology and bred her 'dirty' is sheer waste and a pity.

I'm trying to be educated and as economical and practical as possible. I am not breeding coveted, stylish/current trend bloodlines. I've not got a hot show barn. What I am breeding for is usable conformation based on a breed (and its association) that I feel offers a lot to its owners, and the sale of my offspring will include partial training until rideable (part of my marketing scheme). My business plan has my breeding program geared for the family type owner who wants a good general purpose, registered horse who can/will spend money on the general disposition and soundness but not spend the kind of money 'fame of the trainer' or stallions buys. (if that makes sense)

In other words, money IS an issue for me - as I am not selling $10K weanlings or Olympic quality 6 year olds. :-) I need to make educated decisions and weigh risks VS potential consequences.

Gathering intelligence to do whats right by the horses, economical for the IRS (believe me horse business must defend their 'business status' every step of the way!), and produce a marketable offspring that has appeal to buyers (with out becoming upside down financially).

So if you were standing a stallion AND offering LIVE COVER - you'd request a CYTOLOGY report from the mare owner and not (just) a culture report? (if you were doing AI you'd ask this just to defend your stallion's fertility reputation, assuming he is indeed fertile, right?).

In cleaning up a mare after the results come back -

I once did a biopsy/culture on a mare in the fall to evaluate her for breeding in the spring. Ended up she was not a good candidate (poor uterine score, full of infections which got worse after the biopsy) - but that brought up the question of how soon should you do this investigative work and how much time between the 'good' results and breeding.


My current mare in question (I'm not sure if the vet did cytology, she called aprox 2 weeks after she examined the mare to tell me she had 4 nasties and we'd infuse her 3 days in a row) - my son is taking her to a week long horse show in June. I had every intention to breed the mare sooner but this show is important for the mares career (for her offspring) and I didn't want to risk moving her about like that so soon after AI. THe birth date of the foal is not that big of a concern to me.

BUT - my understanding is I should not infuse her to attempt to clean her up until AFTER we get home from the show and are very close to breeding her? (my vet did not offer to infuse her now, have is go to the show the end of the month and the resume the process of getting her AI'd)
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Sunday, Jun 4, 2006 - 4:07 pm:

One reason we require mares to have a pre-breeding exam and culture it is extremely annoying and a big waste of time, money, and effort, to repeatedly tease and breed a mare (and on the owner's part to be paying board for the mare) only to find out later that the mare does have either an infection, scaring, or some other problem that prevents her from getting pregnant.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jun 5, 2006 - 7:59 am:

As stated above, horses with a history of problems, do not fit in the recommendation of a minimal workup. This is whether she is maiden or not.

Breeding mares with infections will lead mainly to lower conception rates but CEM or EVA represents special problems. Late term abortions and foal losses are not known to be a problem of the more common prebreeding uterine infections. We have articles that explains both of these and the more common type of uterine infections you will find them on the menu, Equine Diseases » Reproductive Diseases ».

If the mare is known to have a uterine infection you should not wait to clean it up.
DrO
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