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  Discussion on How safe is pasture breeding for the stallion?
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Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2001 - 10:44 am:

I have recently purchased a stallion and 9 mares. The stallion is in training to be shown this summer. I plan to bring him home in March to breed the mares. I have had no experience breeding with a stallion. I have three options.
1. The least expensive is to put him out in pasture with the mare I want bred. I am concerned about how dangerous it is for him. I'd rather not have him hurt.
2.Another option is to get a local breeding farm to handle him for me. It will be a hassle hauling mares back and forth and cost quite a bit.The upside is that they are experienced and successful breeders.
3.A neighbor has offered to handle him for me as she has experience at a standardbred farm hand breeding mares.

Looking for suggestions here!

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2001 - 12:07 pm:

Hi Linda,

I've pasture bred my bunch for the last decade, and am a huge fan of it. My stallion has never in all that time suffered anything worse than an occasional surface bite mark; nothing that has come close to scarring. One year I actually showed him at the same time he was in the pasture with his mares---I'd go catch him in the wee hours, we'd go to the show, and I'd turn him back in in the evening. He earned at least a dozen grand championships at halter that year. I obviously can't say that there's no risk at all, but I know several other people who pasture breed and none of them have ever had a severe injury, that I know of. You kind of have to look at the whole picture--your other horses, your fences, how much space you have etc, to know if it would be the best choice for you. I think it's always the best choice for the horses, if the circumstances allow.

There are other some things that you need to consider in order to make pasture breeding safe and successful. Has your horse ever bred any mares before? Stallions that have been hand-bred often have a harder time of it in the pasture, because the breeding style that is considered "efficient" at many breeding farms, especially at stallion stations where a large number may be collected artificially and time *is* a factor, is often one that emphasizes speed above manners. In a natural setting, there is a whole courtship that is acted out at breeding time, and the actual mating is the culmination of this process. In hand-breeding, the courtship is normally dispensed with, and as a result a stallion who has always been hand-bred may think it's acceptable to jump on the first female rump he encounters, without so much as a "howdy"---which will probably get him kicked into next week! Some experienced, in season mares can help him learn how to be considerate. I wouldn't turn him in with a maiden mare right off.

Pasture breeding is certainly better psychologically for all equines involved. The stallions I've managed this way have all been very calm around other horses and have been very easy to take out in public with strange horses. I'm also not sure it isn't a benefit for the foals, to have their sire present. They have the advantage of seeing how he courts and interacts with their dams, which may be a benefit if any of them are to be breeding stallions. Plus, they seem to like hanging out with their Dad. :-)

Just my thoughts; hope this is helpful to you in making your decision.

~Amy

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2001 - 6:00 pm:

Can't add any to Amy's reply except that should your stallion get off your property and cause injury to persons or other stock you would probably be held liable. In my situation, people ride on a road adjacent to part of my property and I would not feel safe having a stallion so close to them no matter how good my fence. That said, if pasture breeding doesn't appear fesiable, I'd elect to go for your third choise and then the second. In a couple of years you will probably be able to handle the matter yourself.

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2001 - 7:37 pm:

My neighbors - who breed Clydesdale/Thoroughbred crosses - always bred their Thoroughbred stallion live because he was unpleasant to load on a trailer and they didn't have the time to seriously work him through his problem. All of their other stallions bred via AI at a wonderful local reproduction center.
This past breeding season, one "pasture-breed" mare socked this poor guy but good right in his "particulars", and he was out of commission for a good long time. Luckily, it didn't cause any permanent damage, but these folks have now trained him to the trailer and unless someone needs a Jockey Club reg. foal (which insist on live-cover only), they will do AI only with their stallions.
I agree completely with this. Although I just have mares, I have heard unbelievable horror stories due to injury and infection with pasture and natural cover breeding. Unless absolutely necessary (or your COMPLETE assurance on the sterile cleanliness and competence of the stallion handlers), I believe AI is the new and only way to go!

Posted on Thursday, Jan 4, 2001 - 11:12 pm:

I agree with Amy, 100%.
We also pasture breed as it is the way horses were meant to be. If your stallion is not used to this he will learn soon enough how to behave and act like a gentleman around your mares.
In most cases, no serious injuries take place.

Sounds like you have taken on alot...be careful.

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 7:12 am:

Linda,
I think the success of pasture breeding a stallion is partially dependent on the stallions experience. Stallions that have been raised in isolation of other horses will be at far greater risk of a faux pas that will get him kicked. The kick can range from the insignificant to the life threatening, who can predict?
DrO

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 10:14 am:

My stallion is 2 1/2 years old and has not been bred to any mares. My fence is 4 strand electric and I have 6 different pastures ranging from 4 acres to 20 acres. If I choose to put him in pasture with the mares should I limit the number of mares he is in with at one time? Should I rotate day and night and keep it limited to 4 or 5 mares at a time? Or would he be happier with one cohesive unit of girlfriends? I would guess possibility for injury is greater with 9 mares to keep track of than just 4 or 5.Any thoughts?

Thanks
Linda

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 10:56 am:

Hi again, Linda,

Okay, a couple of things :-)

Others might disagree but I would strongly encourage you to wait another couple of years before using this colt as a breeding stallion. This is a longterm investment. At 2 1/2, he is still about as close to foalhood as he is to adulthood...in the wild, if the dams didn't produce a foal in the intervening year, some 2yos are still suckling. If this sounds loony, let me paste a convenient quote from Dr. Deb Bennett, which I'm stealing from another discussion:

Dr. Bennett:

"Now, the other "maturity" question I always get is this: "so how come if my colt is not skeletally mature at age 2 he can be used at stud and sire a foal?" My answer to that is this:
sure, sweetie, if that's how you want to
define maturity, then every 14 year old boy is mature. In other words, the ability to achieve an erection, penetrate a mare, and ejaculate some semen containing live sperm cells occurs before skeletal maturity, both in our species and in
the horse. However, even if you only looked at sperm counts or other standard measures of sexual maturity that are used for livestock, you would know that considering a 2 year old a "stallion" is foolish. Male horses do not achieve the
testicular width or weight, quality or quantity of
total ejaculate, or high sperm counts until they're six. Period. And people used to know this; that's why it's incorrect to refer to any male horse younger than 4 as a "stallion," whether he's in service or not.
Peoples' confusion on this question is also why we have such things as the Stallion Rehabilitation Program at Colorado State University or the behavior-modification clinic at
Cornell - because a two year old colt is no
more able to "take command" on a mental or psychological level of the whole process of mating - which involves everything from "properly" being able to ask the mare's
permission, to actually knowing which end of her to jump on, to being able to do this while some excited and usually frightened humans are banging him on the nose with a chain - than is a 14
year old boy."

I agree strongly with Dr. Bennett's comments on this; I think if you are able to wait, you will be more pleased in the long run with the results. I can sure empathize with the frustration of waiting, though, as I waited with my current stallion, and I have a very nice 3yo son of my stallion that I'd love to breed this year, but I'm going to wait until next year. He's living with a small group of geldings at the moment.

Regarding the setup... It sounds like you've got a perfect amount of acreage for a small breeding farm, but you definitely don't want electric fence for a *perimeter* fence with a breeding herd. Depending on where you live, there may even be local laws that require a certain type of fencing for stallions. I have little experience with electric fences for dividing pens inside the property, so I can't really comment.

As far as the numbers, another argument against waiting for a couple of years comes into play here, and that is that 9 mares is really too many for a 2yo to handle. When he's older, it'll be no problem---I've had as many as 10 in with my stallion, but that wasn't in his first few years breeding (started at four, with two mares). In the wild, I believe the median number is around 5 mares per harem.

When you do get your herd set-up, you'll find it's much less disruptive to turn the mares in and leave them, rather than continually shifting between bands and removing members. The herd tends to become an entity, and after a while a stallion may even refuse additional mares because the herd for that season has already been established. Whew, you know, Linda, this is really a big topic... are you into reading? :-)

Best thing you might do at this time is to do some research; there are some great books on the subject. Lucy Rees' THE HORSE'S MIND is one of the best, as are Dr. Marthe Kiley-Worthington's THE BEHAVIOR OF HORSES and EQUINE WELFARE. Online, Dr. Sue McDonnell has some good articles on pasture breeding---I'll find the URLs and send them.

Hope this post doesn't feel like a huge stack of boxes falling on you.

~Amy

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 1:20 pm:

The only comments I'd add are:

How do you know a stallion so young is appropriate to use as a foundation sire? There are lots of average or worse horses in the world - I would think you'd want to gather a performance record, halter championship or breed testing before using him as a stud.

I'd discuss with my vet if there are any VD-like diseases that could be transmitted between the mares that you may want to test for.

And, do you plan to have him breed outside mares? They I'd require the testing before introducing the outside mares, and I'd be more inclined to keep the stallion in a "sub-herd" of mares that are in season and rotate them in and out of the herd as they come in and out. (Otherwise, it would be very hard on an "outsider" to integrate in a herd of 9 plus stallion effectively for breeding.) I'd leave him his favorite 1 or 2 mares if in a rotation.

Posted on Friday, Jan 5, 2001 - 2:22 pm:

Oh Boy. I agree. Such a young stallion among 9 mares is a disaster waiting to happen. It is strongly recommended that you restrict the number of mares the first couple of years.
We used a two year old last year on two of our mares and then took him out of that pasture and returned him to his gelding buddies...all of whom are more dominant than he is at this time.
It is SO important to keep a handle on your stallion and proceed with care. Most people like to saddle train their young studs before they ever know anything about breeding. It keeps them tactable and mannerly.
Linda, it is so good that you are asking the right questions ahead of time.

Posted on Saturday, Jan 6, 2001 - 8:04 am:

Linda,
There are many good points made above worthy of consideration. But to address your specific question: it will depend on the personality of the horses and how they react to each other. For instance if the stallion is aggressive and a nuisance, perhaps the more the better. If the herd decides they really do not like him and decide to do something about it fewer at first will be best. I suggest you start with a number that you can manage and if you can, introduce everyone over a sturdy wooden fence for a few days.

Posted on Sunday, Jan 7, 2001 - 8:48 pm:

Thanks for all the information. I have been to dozens of breeding farms over the last 10 years and this is the first I have heard of waiting until a stallion is 4, 5 or 6 to breed. Too bad I wasn't able to take that into consideration in making my purchase. Although this stallion is so nice I doubt it would have changed my mind about buying him. I have seen hundreds of Paso Fino's and my boy has EVERYTHING I am looking for.He is going to be shown this summer and is currently being trained under saddle. I will only have him home for 4 to 6 weeks so I doubt all my mares will get bred. Regardless of which way I go with breeding. I am rather too committed at this point in time to totally withdraw him from a breeding program. I am gathering all the information I can. Thanks everyone !

DrO
Do you suggest I supervise and have the horses on leads and sniff noses etc over the fence? I also have the option of allowing the mares in to a pasture that ajoins his wooden turnout paddock that is a 3 rail wood fence. They could do the nose thing there. I have two strands of electric inside it also. Another breeder had a problem with the horses breeding through a fence. At this point he has alot of respect for fences and I would hesitate to tempt him to push it!

Thanks

Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2001 - 6:26 am:

Hello Linda,
You bring up just several of the myriad of factors that might affect your decision on how to go about this. Since I do not have access to all these factors you will have to make this decison yourself. I too would be concerned if the fence was not sturdy enough to keep the horses apart: perhaps the fence could be improved? Perhaps you could start a little further apart than just a single fence? Introducing this way would be preferable to just holding him: safer for you and unless you plan to hold for very long time it would be difficult to really make much difference.
DrO

Posted on Monday, Jan 8, 2001 - 2:04 pm:

They had been sniffing noses over a high wood wall/windbreak that is one side of his paddock. It adjoins their pasture but is a solid wall. The fence is in very good shape. The posts are 8' apart 6X6 3 rails of 2X6 its all wolmanized wood. If my fence doesn't hold him in I am in big trouble! :)

Thanks, letting them in the pasture next to his will be a nice transition to letting him be turned loose.

I am so thrilled to discover this site. I am telling my Equine Ladies about it at our next meeting. Thank You DrO
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