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  Discussion on What is the chance of a buckskin from a bay
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Member:
Kparks

Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 4:40 pm:

We have just purchased a sorrel mare who is in foal to a black stud. What are the chances of getting a buckskin form this combo? I would guess not very good from the previous posts here, but they deal with bay and buckskin. I know the sorrel mare should have a good chance of throwing other colors, I just do not know about the buckskin angle. Thank you.
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Monday, Jan 12, 2004 - 5:16 pm:

your chances of getting a buckskin from a sorrel to a black are ZERO unless the stallion is a smoky black and not a regular true black horse. A smoky black is a black buckskin, which can only be gotten from breeding to a horse with a cream gene, like a palomino, cremello, buckskin, perlino, or another smoky black. One of the parents would also have to have a black gene expessed to get a smoky black from a dilute. Ihave one from a sorrel mare and a dark buckskin stallion. Go to www.doubledilutes.com and I think they have some pics of smoky blacks. The black stallion in your case would have to have one parent that is a dilute in order for there to be any chance that he is a smoky black and not a true back. It is most likely he is either a true black or a fading black, both are black.
A sorrel mare usually throws what she is bred to, since red is recessive until bred to another red. If you bred your sorrel to a buckskin, you might get a smoky black like I did, or a palomino, or a buckskin, or a bay, a true black, a brown , or a sorrel. Ihave been lucky, I have never gotten a non dilute when I have bred one of my sorrels to a dilute. But it is supposed to be a 50% chance every time that the dilute will pass the dilute gene. Cutter, my senior stallion is a palomino. He has about 170 foals. about 65 of them are palominos, and 15 or so are buckskins or smoky blacks, which makes him a 50% color producer. If someone tries to tell you their palomino or other dilute color stud is more than a 50% color producer then they are lying or else the horse has had so few foals that the law of averages has not caught up yet. If you breed a palomino to a sorrel you will get one or the other half the time. Either a sorrel or a palomino, 50% of the time. A palomino is a dilute sorrel, nothing more, so all they have is a cream gene and a red gene, which they will pass half the time. the sorrel mare has only red, so she passes red, Cutter in this case, can pass either red or cream, so you will get a palomino half the time when bred to sorrel.
the red gene is normally hidden in a black based horse , like a bay, brown or black, Only a test for black (or lots of foals) will show that a horse is either heterozygous or homozygous for black. If the black stud you bred to is homozygous, then he is black/black, and has no red gene, so he will pass black every time and your foal will be a black based horse, but will have a hidden red gene, which will make it heterozygous for black. If he is not homozygous, then he also has a red gene, so you could get a sorrel or chestnut foal, which will only be red/red if that happens, a red horse cannot have a hidden black gene, from what I have learned. Black overrides red, so if it has a black gene, it will have a black base, and be either brown, black, bay , or buckskin ( only from one dilute parent). A buckskin is a bay with a cream gene. Even though you may think of a bay as having a red gene, they may not. It is another gene that causes the body to be a reddish color. It is entirely possible for a bay to be homozygous for black. to make it simple. If a horse has a black mane and tail, black points, then it is a black based horse. Of course if you bred your sorrel mare to a perlino, you could get a 50% chance of getting a buckskin, since a perlino is a double dilute with the black gene. They are not usually homozygous for black , though, but they are homozygous for cream. Every foal will be a dilute. A cremello is also a homozygous creme dilute, but they are red based and so if bred to a sorrel or chestnut, you would get a palomino every time. Now that I have totally confused you, I think your mare will have a black foal with a hidden red gene. Chris www.canyonrimranch.net
Member:
Presario

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 9:10 am:

Christine pretty much said it, except "A smoky black is a black buckskin" isn't quite accurate. A smokey black is a black horse with a single dilute/creme gene. Most of the time you cannot physically tell it's a smokey black (and as an aside, a black with double dilute is a smokey creme and really cool looking).

Do you know the colors of the parents of the black stallion? That could help determine a little more accurately your chances of various colors. But simply put, you'll get either a black, a bay (if the mare carries the bay modifier) or a chestnut (if the stallion carries a red gene).
Member:
Kparks

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 12:13 pm:

No, I know nothing about the stallion, but am supposed to be getting a copy of his papers. We just bought this mare back and she is in foal to a black QH. The stud is now deceased. She is a homebred from our Morgan farm and was sold as a 2 year old. I hope to have more info soon. Thank you so much for replying to my question. We bred this mare's mom to a buckskin (mare is liver chestnut) and got a strawberry blond palomino filly who is now turning into a dappled palamino something or other, ha. Her mane and tail are getting black hairs and her legs are getting dark. We have no idea what she will end up being. She is coming 2. Thanks again.
Member:
Sporty

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 7:45 pm:

Hey guys,
I should know the answer to this question, but it has been a while since Genetics. I have a sorrel overo mare that I bred to a sorrel tovero stud this year. The mare was by a black overo stud. Do I have any chance for any color other than sorrel?
Member:
Canyon28

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 9:41 pm:

you will get a sorrel, although I dont know that much about how paint genes are passed, the base color will be sorrel only. I hope you have had your mare tested for OLWS and she is negative or that the stud has been tested negative. You could get a lethal white foal from this combination if both horses are carriers. that would be a real heartbreak.
Member:
Presario

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 13, 2004 - 9:41 pm:

Bridgett - nope, you WILL get a red (sorrel) foal. Sorrel/chestnut is homozygous for the red gene, so there is nothing to pass on except red. Ok, the bay modifier can be passed on, but since that doesn't affect red hairs, only black, it's a moot point.

Just an aside - have the mare and/or stallion been tested for Lethal White as they are both overo?
Member:
Sporty

Posted on Sunday, Jan 18, 2004 - 9:40 am:

NO neither mare or stud have been tested for lethal white. YES, I know the risk. I am hoping and praying that it doesn't come out white. I was willing to take the risk because this was the last time they were breeding this stud and I have a gelding by him that is sensational. I talked to lots of paint people who breed overo to overo a great deal and take the risk. But I know with my luck, this is my first and probably only foal ever and it would happen to me. Wish me luck and pray it's not white! Since the stud is tovero, would that lessen my chances for a lethal white?
Member:
Presario

Posted on Sunday, Jan 18, 2004 - 11:26 am:

The chances are not any less with a tovero since that is just both a tobiano and an overo.

I know you do what you have to do, but the $60-ish cost of the test for OLWS would seem to outweigh the risk of losing not only all breeding fees and vet fees, etc, but the life of the foal. It just seems so senseless to take the risk when you could easily know for sure. JMHO
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