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  Discussion on To breed or not to breed...
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Posted on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 9:41 am:

Last year 77,000 horses were slaughtered in the United States. These were not just old, sick or injured with no hope of recovery. Of those, a great many were perfectly nice horses who had fallen on hard times. Many, many were registered.
If you just want to raise and train a foal, what about adopting a Premarin foal. They are available in all types and colors and are much less expensive than breeding and maintaining a mare.
If you really, really want to breed that mare, ask yourself two important questions. Is the resulting foal going to be so special or unique in some way that they are likely to be guaranteed a home for life or if not, are you willing to provide them a home for life? Or, if the answers to these questions is no, one last question, is it important enough to you to breed that it justifies the possibility of this baby ending up in a slaughterhouse yard 10 or 15 years down the road?

Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 5:44 pm:

Hi Pamela

Good point.

There is a place not far from where I live that is essentially a feed lot for horses. The fellow that runs it goes around to the local auctions, buys mostly yearlings or even weanlings, feeds them up to a certain weight then sells them off for slaughter. He does occasionally even end up with registered stock. A lot of these babies are PMU foals but, a fair percentage of them come from people who just had to have a baby, trouble is babies grow up.

Now as you all recoil in horror I must say in all fairness that these horses are well cared for during their stay on this farm and he does make every effort to resell to people who will make riding horses of them. I know a few people who have gotten good sound serviceable horses through this fellow.

It's not always old horses that end up at the slaughter house.

D.

Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 6:18 pm:

No horse should end up this way..Old or young. Of course the man takes care of them, the fatter they are , the more they are worth..Anyone that knows horses, also knows how intuitive they are, and realize those horses being loaded on trucks know exactly what their destiny is. That fear they must endure alone is cruelty at its best. I don't have the answer to this horrible problem, except for educating against NOT breeding and enlightening those who are unaware of the responsiblity involved in owning an animal that will wind up trusting you leaving its fate in your hands.. Maybe this makes it a moral issue, a matter of conscience , a maatter of the heart..Where best can people be reached?

Posted on Thursday, May 24, 2001 - 7:59 pm:

What do you do? I was thinking about the breeding process? I have second thoughts. Your post adds to the list of why I shouldn't. It makes for some very heavy thinking since I wanted to sell for profit. Which is the reason why everyone breeds. Does that make me a bad person? I read your post and the answer would be yes. But what about the many others out there who breed. Yearly. Some good. Some not. What do you say to them?

Years ago, I did break up with a boyfriend over the breeding of our dog. I DID NOT want to breed her. SAME reasons. Too many dogs and cats in this world. The Euthanasia for them is in the millions. Needless to say, he bred her. The litter wasn't all that great since I took 2 of them and know what the others must be like. Both are chronically ill with problems of the breed. By taking 2 am I paying penance? Sometimes I think so. Don't get me wrong, I love them and will always care for them, but they shouldn't have been bred because of the ego of the boyfriend.

Also, though, until you breed will you find out if you have the diamond everyone is searching for. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if I had the next Secretariat? Mr. Prospector, Unbridled?? make a million bucks.

It's terrible but we are gambling with lives. even if its not a human life.

You posted a very heady thread. And it made me think in a non-selfish way.
Member:
estrella

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 6, 2007 - 5:20 pm:

Thank you Dr. O for your article and other members for your follow up post. I had a post entitled 27 year old mare in big trouble. I lost her. It was indeed a heartbreak. So my bestest pal shipped her champion mare here to help fill the void. She said I could breed her and keep the foal. (good friend huh!). So We have picked the stallion, a very nice stallion. The mare is a proven broodmare. She is actually related to the mare I lost. So I though I should begin reading. Found Dr. 0's article. I have raised a foal before, actually the mare I lost. It was fun. But then again it was 27 years ago. Then I started thinking, what if I don't get the foal I hoped for? What if I had to sell it? I couldn't really guarantee a home for life with someone else.

Then I realized the mare I had was the way she was because of the circumstances and events during that time. That's what made us who we were together. Kinda of separating the emotion from it. Faced with the reality. So for me I think producing a foal with expectations may not be the best thing for us.

Although cloning is an option! I heard it's about $10,000.00 for a cat. I also heard cloned animals don't live very long. But then again I could have been the first to post a question about a cloned horse!

So wish me luck in finding not a replacement, but a horse that is just as special. Thank you again. Oh yea and my friends mare...She is sure an easy keeper...a little pudgy since her visit here..good thing it's blanket season! Gotta fix that, who knew? I was hoping it was just long hair.
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 7, 2007 - 7:36 am:

Congratulations estrella in taking a very emotional feeling and reasoning out a very logical response that I think will in the long run will make you happier. There are thousands of potential trusty friends out there that would love to come live with you.
DrO
Member:
lhenning

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 7, 2007 - 12:40 pm:

Sorry to hear about your mare. My condolences to you. 27 years is a very long time to get to know someone and to spend loving them. Even if you had a foal exactly like your mare, it would take that long to get to the place you were with her. You just can't replace lost loved ones. Enjoy your memories of her and give yourself time to grieve.

Take things slow and you will find your answer. Many members here have been down the same road as you. Many find new horses and now have wonderful stories to tell about their new friends. It is not the end of pain you seek, but a new beginning with someone completely different. Whether that is with a new foal or a grown horse depends on how much training time you want to devote to the project. Only you can answer that question.

Good luck,
Linda
Member:
paardex

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 7, 2007 - 1:15 pm:

Hi Estrella,I think you make a wise decision. Breeding a horse is also a thing you must do with your whole heart[and as much knowledge and responsability as you can find]. People like you are the owners people like me are looking for[and my mares because believe me there are some that love to be a mommy from time to time]
Very wise to look not for the same of more because imo [even with cloning] you wouldn't do justice to your new companion if he just has to replace another.
Apart from that another real friend might give you more then just a replacement.
Good luck
Jos
Member:
imogen

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2007 - 3:25 am:

Also, Estrella, you mentioned yourself the 27 years age difference between when you raised the previous foal and now. Like kids, you really need to be physically able for looking after young horses. Good decision.

Imogen
Member:
paardex

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2007 - 9:24 am:

Imogen don't put me in a 'prenatal depression' does age really matter?
Thought that was for the horses
Jos
Member:
ekaufman

Posted on Thursday, Nov 8, 2007 - 9:42 am:

Well done Estrella,

I'll join the others saying that I admire your thought process. Any decision that came out of that analysis would definitely have my respect. I wish I could bottle your perspective and pass it around the neighborhood!

- Elizabeth
Member:
imogen

Posted on Friday, Nov 9, 2007 - 9:33 am:

Jos, I actually think that looking after young horses well so that they turn into reasonably trained animals that will have a nice life/good owners if you are not around to look after them, takes a lot of physical energy and determination... but maybe it's just me that should be depressed! Maybe it just says I am finding it harder work than I would have years ago...

All the best

Imogen
Member:
paardex

Posted on Saturday, Nov 10, 2007 - 4:20 am:

I know you are right Imogen, I was just kidding.
I sent my gelding away to being trained wednesday[much to my dismay because I miss him] but these big horses are getting to much for me to ride in the beginning. Can't take the risk who will clean and feed if I can't do it?
But with adaption [like letting others do the parts I can't do alone anymore] I manage because I really LOVE having young horses growing up around me.
Another option I found was: Akacja the Arab she is so much easier to handle then my big showjumpers [1.47m against1.70m] even though my own horses are easy to handle the little one makes life easier on me.
Sorry Estrelle I seem to have taken over your post, but I think this discussion underlines that somewhere there will be an exceptionel new buddy for you, and there are breeders who do their very best to do it responsably and just because they love it just as much as you have loved having your horse.
Jos
Member:
estrella

Posted on Saturday, Nov 10, 2007 - 11:42 am:

Good Morning!

Thank you for replying to my post, Yea I agree 27 years have passed since I raised a foal..but I got her when I was 10. (tee hee), OK a tad older. But the one thing that has changed in the 27 years, is now thank goodness, it's easier to afford a good trainer. Then another reality moment. My trainer I had for my hunter has retired, my horse shoer, my vet is holding on by a string. My trainer is still my good friend, well more like family. I tried to convince her to do it one more time for me. But she no longer has any cartilage in her knees. She can't even step up a curb. I'm thinking Bute! I am still deciding on a breed. Estrella thought she was a hunter, she was brought up in a hunter barn, although she was an Arab she never knew it. Her build was different also. So I checked into her lines, long gone. No one believed she was full Arab. Now for my Hunter, a TB, he is 17 now, I retired him from the shows about 6 years ago. He was always on the road. We were offered big bucks for him, I turned it down. I knew I could never afford to buy another like him. I figured he had a racing career, even won once, then a hunter career. That was enough. He loves the ring work, loves to jump and also loves the trails. He's a trail blazer, he's quiet and kind. He has never refused a jump. When he goes on the trail, if he see's something that makes him a little uncomfortable, he's very sensible. Just stops and looks. He is a Private Account son, and I got him from my friend. She retired him from racing because she he didn't like it. My other friend said there is no way I will ever find another like him, not in a TB. That I was very lucky. Naw, it was something about him I loved from the moment I met him. She said out of all animals she has ever met, that he should be the one that is cloned. I have a chest full of silver and ribbons he has won over the years. He is perfectly sound. Another friend who's a QH trainer, used to take him out when he was boarded at her place while we were moving. She said she has never met a TB like him. She just loves him also. Oh yea and he is very pretty...OK so maybe very lucky. So what say you? Are there other TB's like him out there? I got my hubby a QH. I purchased him when I retired Estrella. It was pretty hard to convince him Estrella needed to be retired. Only until he heard the vet say it did he believe it. My husband just loves him. I did good on that one, a perfect match and best buddies! I have done alot of reading about the different WB's but it's hard to tell. You know looking back, at the training barn, she had 98% TB's. They were all pretty quiet. So I don't know if it was her ability or the horses. I know I mention cloning, but I am only kidding, too freaky for me. Although maybe I can clone the trainer, vet, shoer and horse!
Member:
estrella

Posted on Saturday, Nov 10, 2007 - 11:52 am:

Oh yea and just to have to add this little article about him. Gives me goose bumps. The header is Today's "Ready to Fire" horses. "Is ready to run big for O'Hara off a very strong gate work with the likes of Sir Hutch. Couldn't beat that fast son-of-a-gun but held his own and is very liable to be tough to beat on the DrOp" "He caught our clocker's eye the other day working with the classy Sir Hutch." I gotta go out and hug him now. OK perhaps a tad off topic...enough of the "I love my horse"
Member:
sureed

Posted on Sunday, Nov 11, 2007 - 10:44 pm:

After so much discourse, I weigh in here cautiously to say, when I was younger (I am turning 60 in Feb 08), I rode TBs. When I went back to riding four years ago after 20 years off, I naturally bought some OTT TBs because that is what I used to train and ride. But they are so different now. As Warmbloods have increasingly taken over in equestrian competition, the TBs are bred only to race without regard to temperament or long term soundness. Once I became aware (through direct experience with some OTT TBs including a little time in the OR) I transitioned to rescuing OTT TBs but riding and breeding Warmbloods. My goal is for American competitors to ride American bred horses in International competition. At the same time, because of my devotion to TBs, I keep them heavily represented in my lines. One of my broodmares is an OTT TB that I presented for Oldenburg approval and she was accepted. She throws exceptional foals with great dispositions. I bred my Hanoverian mare to the TB Grand Prix jumper Coconut Grove (South American bred but now standing in the US). He is the only TB in American approved for Hanoverian breeding. The colt from that breeding is exquisite and a competitive jumper prospect.

Meanwhile, because of my rescue efforts, a very successful trainer here in CA gave me a TB stud, imported from England, who bowed a tendon when he was 5 after winning over $130,000 on the track. I am now planning to stand him as a TB sire to TBs and Paints, QH and Appy race horses. I am also presenting him for approval to the American Warmblood Registry so he can stand as a sporthorse sire. Being English bred, where they still care about temperament, I believe he can contribute a lot to sporthorse and racehorse breeding in America.

All of this is to say, we need to be very careful about the bloodlines we are bringing forward. It is not every horse's destiny to procreate. We must breed the best to the best, or we will be producing even more horses that are destined for slaughter. The horse we breed must have desirable characteristics that are important to carry on. I am devoted to TBs and will always incorporate them in my lines for refinement of the heavier Warmblood lines and for the athleticism they contribute. But not all bloodlines are suitable to be carried forward. As breeders, we need to know which are suitable and which are not.

Increasingly, the majority of amateur riders in the horse market are older women (like me). We need to breed horses that are marketable and meet market demand as well as withstand the demands of their disciplines over the long haul.

Suzanne
Member:
paardex

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 4:18 am:

Couldn't agree more Suzanne,though I saw the change[being 51] the other way around. The warmbloods changing direction TB.
Just one addition I would like to make, let's put as much energy in educating riders as we do in educating our young horses. In Holland and in France it is [imo] necessary!
Jos
Member:
imogen

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 7:26 am:

[off topic]
I am begininng to think there is a business here for for someone in adapting to the ageing riding population... DrOp-down stirrups, handling aids for bales, breeding quiet horses, boots you can get on over arthritic ankles, etc etc.

Anyone else for "Geriquestrians"?

Imogen
Member:
dres

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 9:57 am:

Well written Suzanne! Send me a photo of your new guy when you can..

As far as the middle age woman market you are very correct .. And.. what is being bred more and more crossing the drafts and Friesians to WB's and TB's .. not to mention the 1/4 horse market is being out crossed as well.. Some of these 'mixes' can be lovely.. some can be , well unique and not very athletic in my HUMBLE opinion..
The market now is soft and selling NICE horses is difficult at best...

Best of luck on your quest.. I threw in the towel..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
estrella

Posted on Monday, Nov 12, 2007 - 12:38 pm:

OMG! I think I am in the realm of, "the good ole days" and "they don’t make ‘em like they used to"
Suzanne, I think you just summed it up. My TB’s dam was a French Mare. Typical, I never thought about the mare. And my friend that said I was very lucky, that I will never find another, her TB is 6.
In my quest to find a replacement Arabian mare, after research and looking at Stallions, (I know it may not be true for all, just my limited realm of Arabian pals) I explained what I wanted. My husband and like to show horses and dogs, they get a career, then retire. We then proudly display the pictures and ribbons. Tell the stories of victory. They retire get a “normal” life. Tack up and impress children at the local arena. Go on trail rides in a perfect frame. It’s a beautiful thing. I hear as we pass, "that’s the Claiborne Farm horse." I was told by 3 Arabian breeders, that the stallions would produce a nice show horse, I said, but after the show career how would they be to live with? The answer was the same. Well the horse will be really "hot". Rut Oh. Read Dr. O’s article, Abandon, Abandon!

My TB being 17, my thoughts then turned to do I want an Arabian? Probably start thinking about starting another hunter, a young one. The timing should work out perfectly. My TB in my mind stuck at the age of 13, it worked for me, then my husband said, he’s been 13 for a while. It couldn’t be true! It is. Dang those Jockey Papers. I have hidden my birth certificate.
I noticed in the QH’s they say "Foundation Bred", must be the same thing there.

I helped in a TB rescue where I live. A fake rescue guy. Starving horses. Ahh, but Imogen, with age I have found I am much craftier. Summoned with ease the media. Lights, camera, action! Got ‘em banned from the track, and he had a fun and exciting investigation by the TB racing commission. With this I met a wonderful gal with a very nice TB rescue. I received Kudos from her, she said she uses the media as a last resort, I skipped the negotiations with the owner, why talk about it? I felt he could explain it to everyone. I may be on a hit list now.
I like DrOp down stirrups. They just don’t make tall enough mounting blocks now. When I was 10 (tee hee), I used to ride anything, bucking was fun! Falling off, jumped back on. Now it seems like it’s kinda of like a sack of potatoes landing in the dirt. Rechecking my Accidental death and dismemberment insurance. Riding with friends, asking what was that? Oh a fly.
I wonder why we ever searched elsewhere for the perfect TB’s? We had them here, Secretariat, Man of War, Buckpasser to name a few. If you look at Man of War’s conformation, it made sense why he did so well. If they have a great mind and are correct, everything else falls into place. I am determined to find a TB or TB Cross like the horse I have. We shall see where it takes me. I even went to the Claiborne Farm web site. How do you ask for a TB that’s slow from there? Should I ask who is your slowest race horse? Did he go in and come out of gate with ease. During the exercise, did you see ‘em trot? Did it appear he could extend? Do you need a stud chain? Is he good for the farrier? I may need an alias.
Suzanne, you may be the answer to my dreams. I appreciate your thought process and your breeding programs.
Member:
sureed

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 14, 2007 - 2:09 pm:

Here, here everyone, "gerequestrians," I love it Imogen. I was so excited to see those zip back boots, when I started riding again. Even when I was younger I would get Charley Horses getting my boots on and off (and my poor Mother got booted across the room more than once trying to help me), remember thoses days?

Estrella99 - my first thought when my OTT TB slammed me to ground (with a very artful and athletic buck, buck, twist, twist) was "Dang, I don't remember the ground being this hard." About the third time this happened my trainer knelt down beside me while I was checking to see if I had broken my shoulder (I hadn't) and said, "Don't you think it's about time we moved this horse along and got you something more manageable?" Timing is everything, and I agreed.

OMG jos, I think about this all the time and talk to my fellow warmblood breeders about it -- how do we get these young horses started? We have no system in the US to bring them along, so people just fly to Europe to pick up a well made five year old who has been through their system. Wouldn't it be great to have a centralized facility (or ideally, East, West, Midwest, where our horses could go to be trained systematically and also offered for sale so buyers could visit several horses at once instead of going place to place to see one at a time)?

No one wants the young ones. The established trainers are getting older and don't want to mess with starting babies either. And frankly, I'm too old to do the backing myself. Thank goodness we have some young riders around who are willing to climb on board a green horse. Of courses, ours are well started on the ground first, but that's no guarantee you won't be enduring some good bucks starting out. (jos, I think the horses keep us young and the years just make us smarter!)

Ann, I'll send you a picture of Helms Deep offline. He and his 07 filly should be here at the end of the month so you must come visit and also see Peabody again. Then you can meet Pea's half brother, Cabo. I bred him to be my geriatric horse and pack me around for the rest of my life. He is half TB/half Andalusian (therefore and Iberian Warmblood) and a real lovebug. As you say these crosses are becoming popular because of quieter temperaments and more rideable gaits. And properly bred, they can be exceptional} performance horses. I figure if I can just get out of Maiden next year (never made it as a junior) I'll quit jumping and try to learn dressage (which I think is much harder, but at least it is on the flat). And you are right, the market is terrible. I just sold Libby (and I use the term "sold" lightly as I practically gave her away). Libby is by Landkonig, the sire of the second ranked jumper in the world, Lantinus. Did that make a bit of difference in her marketability? No. But she now has a good, purportedly forever home, and at least a light show career in her future. Since my breeding horses are boarded, I have to weigh my future costs against the sale price. Also, I have no foals coming in 2008. I can't breed more than I can provide for until they have good homes.

I suppose the last thing the horseworld needs is another breeder, but I am trying very hard to produce and raise lovely foals that will take care of their riders and be pleasures to own and secure their futures for themselves. However, I'm not naive. I think it is so great that everyone of us is also committed to rescue and that will certainly always be a part of my program.

Thank you all for allowing me to express myself. This has been a great thread.

Suzanne
Member:
dres

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 14, 2007 - 2:59 pm:

I don't board but still would only breed what I COULD feed comfortably!~ I have kept 4 of my babies and have now sold my brood mares!~ I would not give them away and knew that they would be good riding horses if not just for me.. ! So far it is who ever's lost and my gain as they are all nice moving horses with great temperments.. Well maybe Danni, my rehab filly could use a little mellowing <smirk> My last one Tom, I just go out and stare at him as he is maturing incredibly beyond what my expectations were when he was born.. It just goes to show that the bloodlines can if bred correctly shine thru..

Love your idea on several central training facilities.. and then sales.. but you know that won't happen as the cost would be out of controll..



On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots.
Member:
imogen

Posted on Thursday, Nov 15, 2007 - 9:51 am:

Suzanne and others, I already plugged this book in a separate thread but I will do so again unashamedly here - "Making the Young Horse the Rational Way" by Elwyn Hartley-Edwards. Covers exactly the issues we have been discussing from the perspective of a lifetime's experience and funny and educational too! Anyone who is interested in this thread, get someone to buy it for you for Christmas.

https://www.amazon.com/Making-Young-Horse-Rational-Way/dp/0851319114/ref=sr_1_1?i e=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195138203&sr=8-1

Imogen
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