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Discussion on World's Easiest Breeding Question
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Member:
Sjeys
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Posted on Monday, Oct 16, 2006 - 5:43 pm:
I have a dumb breeding question. There are horses that are "broodmares" who seem to be horses that are good with foals, who have been successfully bred before. So, my question is this...aren't the mare's genes important too? I just don't get that you'd spend all this money on a stallion (and I know some have to approve who you breed to) and then throw the other half of the gene pool in there from a mare who may not have but average conformation or average talent. I imagine at the highest levels that you would take eggs from a top rate mare and pair them with semen from a top rate stallion, but I'm not getting this "Broodmare" thing...
I know that people say that the mare "throws all the characteristics" of a successful stallion...is that really possible? For the mare to "ignore" a lot of her own genes (in a sense) and seem to pass along the stallions?
Of course, my two babies are from a whole lot of nothing (breeding wise) but I love them...of course, I'd love it better if people stopped breeding a whole lot of nothing! 
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 6:57 am:
Mares contributes half of the genes to the foals so it is not true that the mare has a significantly smaller effect on the foal's phenotype when compared with that of the the stallion. It is true that there will be some extra influence of the stallion on the male foal due to the always expressed Y genes but the significance of this in equine performance sports in unknown and questions still remain about the interaction of the alleles across the paired XY chromosome.
DrO
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 8:00 am:
Susan, a couple of years ago, when I was looking for a horse, I met a perfect example of the mare's genetic influence on the offspring. We found a young mare, out of the stallion Ideal, who is a spectacular gray warmblood (now I can't remember, but I think he's an Oldenberg)...absolutely stunning stallion and I was extremely excited to see his daughter. Well, we got to the barn where this young mare was and we were shocked. Frankly, the mare was the ugliest horse I've ever seen (and I'm hard pressed to call ANY horse "ugly"). She had OK confirmation, but her head looked like a caricature of a horses head and though sound, she was very un-athletic and stiff. It was only politeness that prevented me from turning tail and running for the door the moment I saw this unfortunate horse.
The mother was not on the premises but we had been told she was an approved TB. Didn't really matter as it was an unfortunate combination of genes, but I studied pictures of Ideal prior to checking the prospect and his daughter most definitely did not resemble him in the least!
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Member:
Heidih
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 8:21 am:
I agree, the mother has as much impact as the sire.
Just in defense of broodmares, many older broodmares, especially at the well respected breeding farms, were spectacular horses in their youth. Whether they were shown or not, they were great representatives of their breed. A friend of mine used to work full time at a QH breeding farm. We'd walk through the broodmare bands and look at all the long maned, big bellied, slightly sway backed, out of shape old broodmares and she'd point out the former WC roping mare and the high pointed working cow, reined cow horse mare. The full sister to the highest earning reining horse of all time, who had been injured as a foal and who produced on of the top working cow horse futurity babies.
I was truly amazed at what those mediocre looking broodmares could produce and what they had done. This breeder had almost every foal (around 20 a year) sold before it hit the ground and other than the ones he intentionally kept, the rest were sold by the time they were yearlings, for great money. For this respected breeder the quality of the mares was at least equal to that of the stallions and in a few cases the mare's quality was higher. But he also only retained the mares that were good mothers, that were fairly easy breeders and took good care of their foals. He didn't like keeping the troubled mares. He had a few exceptional mares that had acquired some breeding issues as they got older, but were proven in every other sense of the word.
Now days I take the word Broodmare Quality with a grain of salt. There seems to be alot people out there breeding low quality, poorly bred mares, who's being bred because she has a uterus and the owner has a home grown stallion. The quality of their foals will be reflected in the prices and saleability of those foals. Some of those are the ones at the sales you see going for $50 - $150 as weanlings.
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Member:
Eoeo
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 10:36 am:
Not to be picky or anything guys, goodness knows lots of people do it, however, the proper terms are BY such and such stallion and OUT of such and such mare. Just a reminder so we don't steer any newbies wrong. EO
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Moderator:
DrO
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 11:04 am:
Not to mention the pain it would be for the stallion to have a foal come out it.
 DrO
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 1:02 pm:
Ha! I re-read my post and you're right...does sound kind of funny (...out of the stallion...). Guess that's why I leave breeding to those that have a clue!!
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Member:
Qh4me
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 1:48 pm:
Any mare that has a working repro system can be a broodmare, but if you speak to most breeders, the mares are the backbone of their breeding programs.
As Heidi said, a lot are champions, or have Champion parents, or have been injured as a youngster so never showed. These are the sought after broodmares that everyone wants as part of their breeding program.
Lets face it, things happen, and some crosses work and some crosses don't, but your highest chance of a successful cross is to breed a great stallion to a great mare. If your mare has many faults, your chances are pretty low that the stallion will throw all his good traits and you end up with a champion foal. Some of those faults from the mare will show up, guaranteed.
When getting into breeding, I talked to many breeders around, and they said your foundation is your mare. She can have some faults, but you have to be honest in your evaluation of her, and you want to breed to a stallion that is strong where she is weak.
I remember looking at this AQHA stallion, and I thought he was absolutely beautiful, but when researching his offspring, I noticed that many of them didn't have a great head. So I had mentioned that to a fellow breeder, and he said, of course not, you should see that sires dam. She has had a poor head, and that sire is throwing back to her. Now, this sire had the most beautiful head, but many of his babies weren't so fortunate.
So as the other posts say, the mares definitely have an impact on their offspring..and their offsprings offspring...etc. 
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Member:
Dres
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 2:08 pm:
May I add to Shawna's advice, As a breeder myself, I Look at the pedigree and really study the grandsire and granddam... I truly feel they play sometimes a greater roll in my breeding program...
On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
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Member:
Sureed
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Posted on Tuesday, Oct 17, 2006 - 2:38 pm:
Susan,
I too want to speak in defense of broodmares. First, "broodmare" is not a pejorative term. It simply means that having babies is this particular mare's job now, and as Heidi has pointed out, many of them have retired from outstanding performance careers. Some people do start breeding mares early without ever putting them under saddle in order to carry on certain lines. There is nothing preventing such a horse from being trained and taken on to a pleasure or performance career after having one more foals. In fact, some retired mares go back to work in their late teens or early 20's after their broodmare days are over. Also, if it is anticipated that a performance horse (who can have a career well into her teens) will become a broodmare in later life, she may be given some time off to have a baby (advisedly before she is 9 years old), and then put back in training.
When I see the word "broodmare" or "broodmare prospect" in an ad, I take it to mean that the horse is not currently ridden because she is retired, lame or not backed, and/or that she has excellent bloodlines to contribute to a breeding program, and that she is reproductively sound. If it says "proven broodmare" I expect her to have produced a healthy, good quality foal without serious complications. It is up to me to verify (including by vet check) her quality. Even if she is gorgeous in every other respect, if she is a broodmare because her temperament is wretched, then I don't want anything to do with her. If she is lame, I want to know why so I can rule out any congenital weakness in her conformation.
As I breed European Warmbloods, our mares (and stallions) must be approved for breeding in order to register the foals, which means they have passed certain standards of conformation, temperament and movement and, for some categories of approval, performance.
My broodmares are the foundation of my breeding program. My breeding program revolves around them. Since no horse is perfect, I select stallions to breed to based on what they can bring to improve or complement the mare. For example, my Hanoverian mare is of the heavier type, so I am breeding to a more refined stallion to produce a more refined foal but still carry on her very excellent qualities. She had EPM as a foal and suffers some mild ataxia so has never been ridden. But her bloodlines are impeccable and she is a beautiful mare in all respects (in addition to being 17.1 hands). Her father was an international dressage champion and her half brother (on the dam side) is a Grand Prix jumper. Thus far she has produced a stallion prospect and an Elite Mare Candidate. Her 2006 filly is exquisite and received high praise at her foal inspection. I would not trade this broodmare for anything.
One final note. Being a good mom is an important quality for a broodmare as she is the foal's teacher. A mare who enjoys the company of people is likely to teach her baby to enjoy people as well. In addition, it is up to the mare to teach the foal manners and respect.
I too share everyone's concern for backyard breeding programs of little objective that produce poor quality foals destined for an unfortunate life. Even if you have a lovely individual, the plain fact is, that without knowing a horse's progenitors, you have no idea what is going to pop up from the gene pool.
The registries are supposed to encourage breeding the best to the best within their purview, however, my observation is that even within the registries, some are breeding for one quality (like speed or muscle mass), rather than attending to all of the characteristics that make a good, healthy horse including temperament, conformation, and movement.
One needs only to visit a rescue station or an auction lot to see the horrors that result from bad breeding.
Suzanne
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