This is an archived Horseadvice.com Discussion. The parent article and menus are available on the navigation menu below:
HorseAdvice.com » Training, Behavior, & Conditioning Horses » Basic Riding Skills » Basic Riding Skill topics not covered by the above »
  Discussion on Need some dressage advice / Moral support!
Author Message
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 7:33 am:

I'm going to resurrect this thread since I've got this going around in my head with my new girl Rose. My trainer is het up about getting her and keeping her on the bit and in a nice frame. She's a coming 7 yo TB and has really only been in formal training for 9 months or so. I'm reading about the "taking years" to truly be "on the bit" and truly collected, which I know is 2nd and 3rd level. She is doing well engaging her hind and has a nice balanced trot. I can see she gets tired, she starts to toss her head, as if to say "let me out of here, it's too much" . Am I being to nice? I feel she really needs to slowly build up those muscles, she's well muscled in the hind and has great impulsion, nice strides. Can the hind be engaged even if the horse is not "on the bit" is that correct or incorrect?

She will go on the bit for a few strides then she gets tired.

I do intend to do dressage with her, unfortunately my instructor is not a dressage person. Rose was previously out to pasture for 2 years, so is really just starting. She's very supple and light, very responsive.

Also about the TB attention span thing, she is a bit "gotta know what's going on" but hey she's got feelings. Every time we go by the door, she sees her friends, "Oh, hi guys it's me Rose, they are making me work, oh there's the hay truck, oh what's that over there", but she is not bad about it and pays attention quite well. Good overall attitude.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks
Member:
hwood

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 8:20 am:

Adria, congrats, again, on getting such a lovely mare.
I believe your gut is correct in this. Any conditioning program is done SLOWLY . . . with increased work added in increments. How long can any of us "forward-looking" people walk or jog around looking at our belly buttons before our necks get sore? If Rose can trot the arena three times around "on the bit" for the first month, then on the fourth week, ask for 1/2 the arena more . . . or an extra round . . . and do that for a week, and then add more . . . always being sensitive to what your horse is telling you . . . while being confident about your request. You will recognize little sorenesses and avoidances and gives and successes for a long while as you two are getting to know one another and begin a working partnership.
I believe a horse can be engaged behind without being on the bit . . . but I don't believe a horse can be "on the bit" without being engaged behind . . . It may be a matter of semantics of the different riding styles and training methods on that question.

Little squeezes on the reins and "askings" to say, "Hey, Rose, don't forget I'm right here . . . we can talk to your friends later," will be helpful, but I think you are already doing that. You are building a new regimen for her and getting her muscles and mind into new patterns . . . and it will take lots of love, time . . . and a good sense of humor.
Will love to see a pic of you up on top if your trainer can take one for us.
Member:
kthorse

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 9:40 am:

I agree with Holly 100%. Thats what I would do.
I just read a dressage book that said the opposite. It said to keep the horse in a frame and on the bit right from the start. She also said to keep a firmer rein on a young horse untill that they eventually get softer in your hands. The author said that lunge work first to get the horse muscled then always keep them on the bit except for stretching. There are so many different oppinions on this it gets confusing. I dont agree with keeping them on the bit , but I guess it works for some. I prefer Hollys method personally.
Member:
cspanhel

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 9:46 am:

I wish I was a dressage expert, but alas, it appears to takes a lifetime...but it does sound to me like the trainer is into 'cram and jam' to get the frame/headset, which is most definitely NOT how you want to proceed. You do definitely need to allow time to build the muscles required to move up the levels. A good trainer can tell by the muscle development in the horse whether the horse has been worked/trained correctly.


I can recommend a good beginning book which I have used and like a lot: 'Lessons with Lendon: 25 Progressive Dressage Lessons to Take you from "Whoa and go"....' (By Lendon Gray)...I used this book to work both on my riding and to train my horse...

cynthia
Member:
amara

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 10:37 am:

did you really mean "just a few strides" when you wrote that Adria?, or more like "for a few minutes"...
if she can only hold it for a "few strides" as you say, then you are either asking her for way more collection then she is physically capable of handling (which i dont think is the case based on what you've written in the past), or she is just playing with you...
gettin a horse "collected" is as much a mental mindset for the horse as it is physical conditioning... at 9 months of regular training she should be fit enough to work for quite awhile "on the bit" (i'm not talking hours, but a 10-15 minutes at a time should be about right)..(done several times in a lesson).. because you describe her as sometimes getting distracted at the arena openings it sounds like she is playing you a bit... sometimes you need to push thru the head tossing to get the mind right.. then whenn the horse is seriously working you can more accurate gauge if the horse is tired or not..

having said this, i do agree that the whole process takes a long time, tho i dont think you need to go nearly as slowly as you think... the best way to gain conditioning is to push "a little farther" around every 5-7 days.. it should also be done in "sets", not just one session per day...

if your trainer is truly into "cram and jam" as Cynthia mentioned that you need to get another trainer right away... but sometimes you need to push thru the mental resistance a a little more strongly than you think, especially if the horse has had a long time off or has been incorrectly ridden...

good luck!
Member:
anta

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 11:55 am:

Hi Adria,

I do so agree on the replies you have had to your questions, I have seen so many willing horses have there temperaments put into question by trainers that have a boot them up and into the bridle attitude. Have a look at your basic dressage test if that is where you are starting from. What does the test require from a horse at that level of training? Basic tests definitely do not insist that the horse is completely on the bit and engaged behind but is actively going forward and balanced first. Most riders train slightly above that at home, if appropriate and start to introduce slowly moves that would then allow them to move on to the level above. All horses are different, just like athletes as to how quickly they progress on certain training aspects. I do so feel that you and your trainer should have a lesson away from the horse and discuss what it is you are wanting to achieve and can they take you their. Sounds to me like you are doing ok with a nice balanced trot and engaging behind after 9 months. I most certainly would get copies of tests for your level and work to thats where you should be aiming at before moving on.

Good luck

Anita
Member:
adriaa

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 14, 2007 - 1:10 pm:

I just talked to my other trainer who is a bit more laid back in general, she says that when she has ridden her she's been on the bit 80% of the time and her general concensus was that I was way too nice, and my hands a little too delicate, not firm enough. Fine line there. She also said that when she rode her it took a lot of forward, driving to get her to to bring herself under and onto the bit. So, I think it's a lot of me... I need to really be a bit more insistent and she is playing with me.

She also said it's not imperative but at this stage in her training she should be able to go on the bit and engage.

Melissa: I'm not asking too much of her probably the opposite, lol. Like you said she playing and I need to get her to pay attention and I need to work on my seat, drive a little stronger.

I have "Lessons with Lendon", and a lot of her beginning work is just relaxed, balanced work. It's a great book. That and Sally Swift's "Centered Riding"

I wouldn't say "cram and jam", it's different when she rides her, she really works her, really drives her on the bit, when I ride her I'm still getting to know her, and my self as well.

She's quite light on the forehand in general, when she is on the bit and engaged she's lovely.

Oh, man I can't wait 'till Spring!!!! It's been so cold, I'm stiff just from the cold!

thanks
Member:
maggienm

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 20, 2007 - 3:20 pm:

This thread is right where i am. Is it me or the mare? Is she ready for more or does she need more conditioning?
I, too, choose to take the long road amid many who choose artificial aids.
I have wondered about Lessons with Lendon, I have read articles by him and liked him but I am nervous about buying yet another book.
Maybe someone could do a review? I guess my specific question would be how does he lay out the lesson and does he indicate how you how to know when to move on?
Thanks
Home Page | Top of Page | Join Us!
Horseadvice.com is a BBB Accredited Business. Click for the BBB Business Review of this Horse Training in Stokesdale NC