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  Discussion on Head tossing--sore or crabby?
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Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2002 - 7:56 am:

My previously fit, 13-yr old novice dressage TB in December suddenly started head-tossing when ridden, apparently out of discomfort--or possibly attitude?? I will be moving overseas in 5 or 6 months and will have to sell him before then, and I'm concerned about what to do given this short amount of time--I want him to be healthy and happy when he goes to a new home. I've read the "sore back" article on a hunch and it has left me confused; if a vet can't tell anything by only palpating the back, but many healthy horses show "abnormal" spinal x-rays, then how can any assessment be made? Should I even call the vet, or just turn the horse out for a month? Or keep riding and see? I really wanted him to be fit when it came time to sell, for his own sake, so I'm concerned about giving him a month off entirely.

Details: This horse has always been sensitive to being saddled (pins ears, bites air, turns and gives dirty looks), needs a lot of warmup and "long&low" stretching time, is prone to stiffness, starts out hollow with head in the air, often gives a little buck with ears pinned when first asked to canter (especially on left), and when first cantering sometimes trips or brushes behind, startling himself back into trot. (Sounds delightful, no?) Some days there is more of this than others. However, once the kinks are out he is capable of nice, relaxed, free movement, on the bit. I don't ask for this until he's loose enough to give it. I ride 5 or 6 days a week, alternating arena work with low-key trail rides. He had been going really well, and then began the head tossing all of a sudden one day, when I asked him to come onto the bit after warming up in the arena. He will flip his head repeatedly, and then stretch down--he's happy to trot or canter around with his nose to the ground, with a rein contact. If I ask nicely for him to bring his head up, he can do so maybe for a few strides but then starts the tossing--I'm seeing the front of his face. I rode him for about a week just stretching at the trot or walking out on trails, then over the holidays he had several weeks of no rider, just lungeing 3x per week, then another week of quiet trail rides. On the trail, he would come onto the bit trotting on the flat or uphill, with minimal if any head-tossing, though the time spent trotting was brief. Back in the arena--one day he only head-tosses at the (rising)trot, another day he seems equally uncomfortable at the canter. I have been told he head-tossed on the lunge while I was away, but tomorrow I will see for myself whether he does this without rider/saddle. I'm not a perfect rider but I think I have tactful hands and haven't changed anything suddenly. What would you do??

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2002 - 11:22 am:

Hm, from your detailed description I'm wondering if he's being fussy in the bridle because he's not really engaged behind. What happens if you pick (and maintain) a rein length, keep your arms soft and maintain a neutral contact, keep him straight, and use more leg to get him moving forward and get his hind end really active?

Mine's quite fussy in the bridle until I get him really engaged, then he settles right in. The moment he gets fussy, I know to give him more leg. He also tries the "long low stretch on rein contact" thing, but it's actually an evasion -- he offers it as an appeasement to me to get me not to make him really engage his hind end. I used to fall for it, or maybe my riding encouraged him to believe that's what I wanted, but have since learned he's really on his forehand when he does that (so he isn't getting any benefit when we work that way). (Note, this "long and low" is different from a horse that's truly engaged and on the bit doing a little lower work to stretch during "breaks" and at the end of the workout, a good thing.)

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2002 - 12:49 pm:

Melissa, he will start to engage in response to my usual requests but then starts tossing the head to avoid doing so, or he will engage for a few strides and then hollow and toss, toss, toss and ignore me. However, it's been so distressing that I have been losing focus and probably backing off, so tomorrow I'll concentrate on driving him forward at that moment in the way you describe. When I let him stretch down at the trot, though, he feels like he's really pushing from behind rather than falling on the forehand.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2002 - 3:08 pm:

Spider, I know what you mean, feeling like he's engaged when his nose is on the ground and he's stretching, and maybe he's going forward when he does it. But when you let him do this, you're letting him off the hook. You want him to be learning self-carriage and engaging with contact, for longer and longer work periods.

I used to back off too, it's hard not to when your horse "rewards you" for it by stopping his fussing. If this is what he's doing (big assumption, since I don't know you/your horse!) then more leg should help you. These days, I take my horse's early fussing at the start of our workout as a sign I'm actually making the right demands, and just continue asking for more engagement, and it took patience and waiting him out, but it really works. We tend to feel we have to fix it from the front -- but I keep learning that if I fix the hind end, the front end will (with patience) fix itself. This is where it really helps to have a good coach, someone on the ground to help you.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2002 - 5:18 pm:

I always start with basics.

1) are you really, really sure his teeth are a-ok?

2) are you really, really sure his saddle is comfortable?

He could have hooks on his back molars that are starting to bug him that a vet/equine dentist would need to get with a speculum, perhaps doping, etc. This is something that could be fine and then develop over time as the teeth are always wearing down.

As far as the saddle, how does he move on a lunge line without a saddle. If he lunges nicely, and free moving, add the saddle, girthing up a few holes at a time. If still free, try being lunged on him ... it is possible his discomfort is not until there is weight on the saddle. Then I would suspect that the flocking needs adjustment or the tree checked if it is an English saddle. If it is western, I'd look on the underside for a nail that has loosened and is poking him.

Perhaps a friend has a saddle that you can try instead and see if he comes out more willing. If you have an instructor, they should be able to advise you re general fit and placement of the saddle far enough back so as to not interfere with the shoulder. Perhaps they know of a fitter that can check the fit and make any needed adjustments.

Good luck with your sleuthing.

Posted on Wednesday, Jan 30, 2002 - 8:54 pm:

Great points, Christine!

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2002 - 6:18 am:

Spider,
To handle the diagnostic dilemma you present you need to understand the point of the statements. It is not to say that back pain cannot be diagnosed easily in many cases: some horses are plainly backsore from a combination of the history and the physical exam. However, I see lots of folks, vets and others, who diagnose back problems in sound horses from the response to pressure. In the same vein, you see horses with vague signs of decreased performance who have pain diagnosed off radiographic lesions alone. This too often leads to erroneous conclusions, high tech but still frequently wrong.

Yes your first step is to get the vet out for a general physical exam. Including examining the horse without tack and under saddle. As others have pointed out there may be other causes and it is important to id these if present.
DrO
PS We have articles and forum posts on both head shaking and tossing in the Training: Behavior Problems section of The Advisor.

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2002 - 9:39 am:

Thanks--Christine, no I'm NOT sure about his teeth and saddle fit! I was trying to guess the best place to start my investigation. Today we lunged the horse (without saddle and then with saddle, but not with rider) and he showed no head flipping whatsoever, not even once. He seemed to my eye to be moving freely but while observing him I wondered if I'm experienced enough to really see if there's something slightly off--this excercise made me think it isn't foolish to call the vet, which I have now done. Where I ride, people generally think horses act up only because the rider has "let them get away with it," or "he's just lazy," and the local vets seem to have a little bit of that attitude also, so I was worried about my vet not taking a behavior problem seriously. But I'll certainly ask her to check the horse's teeth and do a general exam, (and try riding more forward when that head goes up!) and will post the findings.

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2002 - 11:20 am:

Hi Spider,

I'm tending to agree with Christine about checking the teeth. It's not to say that there is NOT a behavioral component to your problem but a bad back molar could exacerbate the problem. My horse has worked through similar difficulties as you describe with your horse and we're not out of the woods yet....but pretty darn close. At his last teeth float (2 weeks ago) the vet noticed a back molar had overgrown quite a bit. He used a tranq. and a gag and really got at it. I've noticed a change in his willingness to move into the bit since that. Which tells me that nothing is ever simple when it comes to horses. To correct his behavior I've changed instructors( a Walter Zettl student), changed saddles (stubben dressage), changed bits (french link loose ring snaffle ), changed riding habits (too many to mention) and now teeth floated. *sigh*

Teresa

PS I have had his teeth done every year. The vet said that this tooth would probably need to be done every 2-3 years.

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2002 - 12:18 pm:

Don't feel bad, my older mare has been teaching me stuff for the last 15 years.

But, guess what, she has been a great instructor - she forced me to become a "student of the horse."

And, long ago, I learned that the more I learned the less I really know.

Try to consider things from 1) the horse's perspective, 2) apply a scientific approach (log of lessons, training, health, observances), 3) provide consistent, fair, predictable communications - break the work in small chunks that the horse understands and, 4) don't be afraid to learn "other" techniques/disciplines, etc. You might pluck one pearl out that unlocks the door of a whole set of problems.

Let us know if the vet has any observations. Cheers.

Posted on Thursday, Jan 31, 2002 - 12:25 pm:

Don't feel bad, my older mare has been teaching me stuff for the last 15 years.

But, guess what, she has been a great instructor - she forced me to become a "student of the horse."

And, long ago, I learned that the more I learned the less I really know.

Try to consider things from 1) the horse's perspective, 2) apply a scientific approach (log of lessons, training, health, observances), 3) provide consistent, fair, predictable communications - break the work in small chunks that the horse understands and, 4) don't be afraid to learn "other" techniques/disciplines, etc. You might pluck one pearl out that unlocks the door of a whole set of problems.

Let us know if the vet has any observations. Cheers.

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2002 - 7:22 am:

Christine, I wish more people used your thinking approach. Last week I watched a friend ride his horse into a quivering lather because he'd been "disobedient"; the horse turns out to have a wolf tooth...Anyway, the vet visited us today and I now have renewed faith in her, although no conclusions have yet been drawn. Today she examined my horse's back & eyes, tapped his sinuses, checked inside ears, tranq'd him and examined his teeth (the tranq was necessary because he was also due for a sheath wash, and he kicks madly otherwise.)

Back showed some possible problems--flinching on palpation of spine behind the wither; muscle spasms when left side under saddle area palpated--but teeth etc were fine. Vet mentioned the possibility of "headshaking," the somewhat mysterious possibly neurological disorder which usually has a sudden onset as my horse's symptoms have. But she'll watch me ride on Monday, so she can observe the behaviour. I've been reading up on headshaking and it does sound like it could be what we're dealing with, but I'll wait until after the ridden exam to obsess TOO much about it.

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2002 - 12:06 pm:

Spider,

I've make mistakes all the time and have been known to be frustrated and blame the horse or give them a jerk. Sadly, no one is perfect - but I'm much better behaved than I used to be.

My mare has taught me patience over the years, but I'm not foolproof, LOL.

And, of course, my horse isn't perfect, either.

When I take a breath and think when I have problems, I usually can find something to do that improves things. That is my job as the thinking member of the pair.

Just Wed. I was frustrated because I couldn't quite get things feeling as nice as I had over the weekend rides. The horse just was giving me about 70-80%. So, we worked for some time at assorted things that might encourage her to let go of the right rein (she loves hanging on the right and hallowing on the left) and at some point I said, well this may be all I'm gonna get tonight.

So we worked on some other things, even some flexions from the ground. The horse improved, some, but well, it wasn't one of our better nights. Perhaps she was tired, a bit creaky, whatever ... most of the time I can count on her.

In the end, so what? The moon was big and orange, the night was very mild and pleasant. So what if she wasn't perfect?

There is always tomorrow, and in the grand cosmic scheme of things, it is a small irritation.

Love your horses. Treat them fairly. They don't get to choose their rider, their pasture mates or their discipline. Most are generous and forgiving to a fault.

Cheers.

Posted on Friday, Feb 1, 2002 - 8:27 pm:

And along this line of conversation, I couldn't more highly recommend "Considering the Horse" by Mark Rashid.

Posted on Saturday, Feb 2, 2002 - 2:41 pm:

Patience is probably on of the most important things my horse taught me.

Along Chris' line of thought, when my ride is not going as well as I hoped or we seem to be working toward a conflict I come to a halt (or walk), take a deep breath and think "Ok, what am I trying to accomplish and what is going wrong?". Then I take another deep breath, pick up the reins and go at it from a different angle.

Another technique I've developed is to not respond even if my horse seems to be looking for a fight. My horse has a very sensitive back. He's not sore but he really reacts to tension in my legs and pelvic region. unfortunately it took me a long time to learn how to relax through our canter transitions. As a result they were pretty ugly for a while. Now, on occassion, we will get an ok transition but my horse will sometimes react like I"m going to bug him by tensing. All I do is open my seat even wider and sit nice and gently on his back and wait for him to come back to me. I'll even say "I'm not going to fight you I'm not going to fight you" over and over. Works like a charm.


Teresa

Posted on Sunday, Feb 3, 2002 - 4:11 am:

Isn't it Mark Rashid who says anytime you're willing to fight with a horse he'll be willing to fight you right back? An important point to remember. Mark Todd has a video--I think he's doing flatwork in it--in which he says never ride out of anger or when you're frustrated, "rather hop off and have a cup of tea." Isn't that a great idea?

Teresa, I like your idea of actually saying "I'm not going to fight you" through the transition, because I know how easy it is to think "he's going to fight me when I ask for the transition," and of course the body tenses up involuntarily, and there goes your nice transition. I also find it hard to stay relaxed when my horse acts up because he's fresh, even though I know he'll relax more readily if I do, too. It becomes a matter of chanting "relax, relax!" to myself (instead of "oh no, he's going to buck me off"), and it does take a long time for the body to get the hang of what the mind already knows. I was fortunate to have weekly lunge lessons on another horse for a while and was amazed at how they helped with body awareness--is my back soft or tense, am I really sitting down in the saddle--and how this awareness really extended to riding my own horse. I mean, I still tense up but at least I feel it happening now!

Posted on Monday, Feb 4, 2002 - 11:46 am:

Well, after observing the horse under saddle the vet concluded his back is not showing signs of soreness. However, of course he did no head tossing, so she couldn't really observe the problem...He did flatten his ears and buck, rush, and fall in at the canter, but she thought this was "exuberance" compounded by rider tension at said exuberance. (Can a horse be "exuberant" with ears back?) The head tossing could still be the beginnings of "headshaking," but the vet can't say so unless she sees it. Not the definitive answer I was hoping for, but I feel better about my horse's back, anyway. Thanks for all your suggestions and I'll post if there are further developments.
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