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  Discussion on Arabian Rushing, Spooking, and Tossing Head
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New Member:
Menick

Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 8:51 pm:

My Arabian Gelding is 6 years old. He has a wonderful temperment most of the time. However, he tends to want to run and will often buck when he spooks or when I want to keep him from cantering. If I havent ridden in a few days, I try will lunge him or keep him at a slow pace for 20 min. in a small arena. When on the trail, i try to stay behind someone else. I've been told to keep him out of situations that make him buck and if he does anyway, to circle him tightly. However, he still will buck anytime the wind blows, or a deer jumps out. Does anyone have a suggestions other than go slow, circle, etc.? Is it just something he has to grow out of?
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 10:02 pm:

Hi, Susan,

What does your horse do with his head when he "bucks?" Is it a true buck with him putting his head between his knees and hunching his back and hopping off of all four legs? Is he just kicking up? Does he give any warning signs that you are aware of? Does he get you off? How long have you had this gelding, and how long have you been riding horses? If you ride him in an arena, does he show this behavior? What is your reaction to his spook/buck? What is his attitude/behavior following the occurance?
I know it's a lot of questions . . . . but the answers will help me to picture you and your horse and formulate a better answer for you.
Thanks,
Holly
Member:
Socaldug

Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 10:50 pm:

whew! and i thought i was the only one with a giddy arab :-)

for what its worth (from an untrained and inexperienced horse person), i'll tell you about my arab:

the first 3 months i had my 9 y/o arab he crow-hopped twice and bolted/bucked once. we are in month 4 now and i hope i've learned to handle it better. my wife says i'm riding like im expecting to take another flying lesson (well heck yeah i am! bruises and pain are not conducive to enjoyable riding). this horse is fully trained and i'm not. he went without much riding for 3+ years then i entered his life (i can still see the evil grin on the horses face). he 99% of the time is a total lover and honestly cares about people. he never crowds, stomps on us, bites, kicks, etc. but when he decides that its time for me to depart his back, he normally wins!

we are working him (read: WORKING ON US) a lot on ground manuvers as well as basic backyard arena stuff. we see improvement daily! we ride him on the trails as well as take him on walks around the neighborhood. if we cant ride on a given day and other people are, they sometimes tack him up and pony him along for the trip. the things he spooked on before, he could care less about now. it just appears to take time and effort! it is definately working!

on the trail if my arab leads, he's in 5th gear. if i put him in the middle of the group or in the rear, he's fine... just follows along calmly (but with the highest and most alert head in the group!) he LOVES to be with other horses. when he's alone, he has nothing to do but fear the clouds, moon, trees, and dirt :-) he also KNOWS when we are heading home and kicks into overdrive (doesnt want to slow down).

he was a little barnsour, so we NEVER go directly home. we normally end our ride at a different house each time and untack there. this way he doesn associate home with getting that darn rider off him and getting some food. sometimes we intentionally pass our house for an extra block and loop back. (aha! the horse thinks he's so smart ... i'll get him! :-) )

we also are cutting back on proteins and replaced half the daily alfalfa with timothy hay. we'll see what happends in a week or so after his motabolism stablizes.

i had his saddle and pad checked and it definatly was hitting his withers and lacked a little spine clearance. we went to a much higher quality pad, more built up and had the saddle worked/fleeced/stuffed/tweaked.

the moral is... with this horse, i really feel we are making progress... you might try some of these ideas over a few weeks and see what happends. it is slowly working for me.

keep us posted!!! and i'll do the same
doug

Member:
Parfait

Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 12:54 am:

Susan,
He sounds like he has a lot of energy. I like to make sure that my mares can be let loose to play in an arena or some safe area every 2 weeks or so. I do this when they are somewhat fit and chase them around a bit (with a whip--make it fun.) It seems to really help them get with the program, mentally. I don't scare them, they know this is play time and they love it!

Sometimes when a horse is really looking around they are telling you that they would like a leader. Doug sounds like he is doing some leadership exercises. Sometimes a horse bolts from pain. High strung horses often bolt from pain so make sure you know that your saddle is OK. I have a horse that spooks when she is uncomfortable. I have one mare who is a bit alpha and I just need a blunt spur on her or she will spook at almost everything. Sometimes the horse is just not exposed to enough stimuli to remain composed in new surroundings. All these will types respond better if you can be the calm one.

The bucking when he wants to run sounds more like a a bit of declaration on his part. I would be really careful how much rein I gave him. If he is able to get a full buck, he has too much. He will give you warnings, although with Arabs, it's usually not much. Think back to what he does. His back will tense, he stiffens? He should have some routine moves that you do with him like some flexions or laterals that are so ingrained that they will immediately make him concentrate and focus. Those ought to be schooled in the arena and then used in moments of duress on the trail. Those can be used when he gets squirrely and refocus him on you.

I keep them busy. A busy Arab is a happy Arab. If I think the horse is starting to look around or tense up I ask them to do something--any little exercise like flexions away from the scary things (just turn his head away and press him forward and use that outside leg) and move him on! Flex right, flex left, traverse down the trail two and three steps. Make sure that you can be the leader on the ground all the time. It will transfer to the saddle. There are many books and videos out on this subject.

If you are an accomplished rider, one way I like to get a horse to rely on me is to take it out alone in the trails. It helps get the horse to see you as the boss. When it's frightened, it turns to you and is a kind of quick solution. I do this with horses that are herd bound too.

I have also found that tying the horses (once home)in their stalls with the saddle on but loosened helps horses who are barnsour. I do this for just a little bit before I give them the full "spa treatment". I couldn't for the longest time,understand why my girls were racing back from our rides when I was rubbing their faces and massaging their backs and giving those carrots and...you get the idea. The alpha mare has also had 15-20 minute tie periods in the middle of the ride to help her compose herself. I don't untack except for the bit. I tie her normally ie) not short! This is something you might try is your horse ties well. If not then you need to back up in training.

That's all I can think of right now. Sorry for the stream of consciousness-type notes!
Kerry

Member:
Socaldug

Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 2:09 am:

great ideas kerry!!!

i have also noticed that arabs, however smart and quick thinking, are very distractable.

when i must pass the dreaded house with the ever flying horse-eating-american-flag out front (yeah, my arab hates that flag), we play "lets sidestep down the trail" then "now lets back up about 10 paces" then "lets practice turning on a dime" then sometimes "how far back can you turn that head to have a peice of carrot" (he's bitless so i do pack a few carrots for distractions and breaktime). before we know it, we are past that giant flag! he glances at it, has fear in his eyes, but gets past it now.

keep him active and having fun! i guess its just something about them arabs :-)

i'm still considering a full football uniform and pads for riding though. someday i hope to get over it.

Member:
Alden

Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 12:24 pm:

Here is a training suggestion for all you airhead owners :-)(just kidding, I don’t own one but I’ve help train and have ridden’ a few and this works for all horses)

While riding; when the horse spooks, circle to control them if you have too. Otherwise press on as if nothing happened, but the most important thing is DON’T hold your breath. Take a deep breath and let all out. Especially the airheads, a horse knows if you hold your breath and most of us new riders will when a horse spooks.

Now, there is ground training that helps so much. You’ll need a round pen or small arena, rope halter, 25-30’ of rope (or a lounge line but I like a lighter rope) and a short whip (or I prefer a 4’ piece of ½ or ¾ PVC pipe) with a plastic grocery bag attached (punch the bottom out of the bag so it doesn’t billow)

Number one rule is, DON’T trap the horse! Let them run away, that’s why it is done in a round pen. Put the horse in the round pen and take the plastic bag and wave it back and forth in front of you. At first horses will head for the hills (I’ve had a couple try to eat it J but they had been exposed to it as foals) Let them go until they find a distance that they can accept the flag. Encourage them to face you by applying press on the rope and stepping backwards, don’t stop waving the flag until they turn and face. When the horse faces you reward by DrOpping the flag to the ground and let them relax a little. Work until the horse will stand still and face with the flag being waved. Once achieved wave the flag, walk backwards and ask the horse to take a step forward by pulling the rope. One step gets rewarded, DrOp the flag to the ground, once they will take one step start working the horse closer by walking backwards waving the flag and encouraging the horse to follow. It won’t be long and the horse will walk right up to a waving flag. After the horse will approach a flag while it is moving you can reward with a rub and DrOpping the flag. Keep upping the pressure until the horse will tolerate the flag touching them all over their body without flinching or bolting. The flag on the head and ears is usually last to be accepted.

Above all the most important thing here is, at any point in the process, if the horse panics and needs to bolt away let them!!! Just work them back to up to where you were. They learn quickly that spooky things don’t hurt. None of them never spook, but this makes most spooks a lock-down type and a light forwards cue gets things back under way. These posts get long too quick :-). Good luck

Alden
Member:
Penner

Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 6:18 pm:

Hi,
All I can tell you is my experience with our straight Egyptian Arab. He was a top halter stallion here in the SW several years ago & then used for breeding for about 5 years. He was gelded because he was (to be blunt) very vicious to people. We obtained him (long story) 1 yr after he was gelded, but he was still mean.

He tore the skin off the top of my friend's entire hand, bit our dog, nearly gave my husband a mastectomy. He paced & head tossed in the paddock, head tossed when riding him, he'd try to turn his very flexible neck around to bite your leg, would not go forward when riding but just bucked, etc etc etc. We tried to round pen him - but he had so much endurance he never got tired, 70 times around at a canter in the round pen & his heart rate was 46. A nightmare. So, we left him alone for about 6 months to just chill out around here.

Finally when we resumed trying to ride him, 1 thing we noticed is he was very interested in our roping steers. When you'd point him at the steer, he went after it like he wanted to eat it. So we thought maybe his job in life is something to do with cows. We team rope, so we (over a 1.5 year period) trained him to be a heel horse.

Voila! He loves it. The head toss mostly stopped even on trail (but we use a standing martingale anyway for roping), he now goes forward beautifully, the biting stopped.

The only time he head tosses now is when he is upset with something (like during feeding time & he is in the paddock waiting to be brought in).

The martingale helps a lot too.

I also do equine massage (so I see a lot of different types of horses), & I have noticed it seems to me the Arabs that I have seen, all head toss to 1 extent or another & they are all fiesty.

The moral of the long story :-) is:

1. He may always do the head toss thing (especially when things aren't to his liking)
2. Use a standing martingale adjusted so his head cannot get above the angle of control.
3. They need a job (hopefully that they love).

Hope this helped.
Member:
Penner

Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 3:08 am:

PS: take a look at the pic in my profile for this Arab...

Some of you might know him as Shezaad. The picture was taken at The Egyptian Event in Lexington, Kentucky.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 5:36 am:

Gosh . . . . he's textbook beautiful! .. . . I wonder if it's okay to ask about his bloodlines in this conversation? . . . Any other white on him? . . . Do you know the personalities of his get?
He really is amazing . . . . Many folks would have given up on him, you know . . . . and issued him a death sentence as penalty for his vicious behavior . . . . Good for you for your "sticktoitiveness." He's one lucky horse.
Holly
Member:
Penner

Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:09 pm:

Hi Holly,

THanks for the compliment! I think hes kinda pretty too <BIG GRIN>

His bloodlines are:
Ibn Morafic+++ X Flaby Bint Sharaf.

Ibn Morafic by *Morafic by Nazeer.
Flaby Bint Sharaf by Moniet El Sharaf by *Ibn Moniet El Nefous.

The shows he won are:
1993 Futurity Champion Stallion, Egyptian Event West, Reno NV
1997 Champion Stallion, Carousel Show, Scottsdale AZ
1993 Reserve Champion Stallion, VSAHA Spring Show, Scottsdale AZ
1997 First Place - Senior Stallion, Flagstaff Show, Flagstaff AZ
1994 First Place - Stallions of 1990, AAHA Fall Show, Scottsdale AZ
1998 Top Ten - Stallion Halter class, Egyptian Event, Lexington Kentucky
1998 Reserve Champion Stallion, Class A show in Flagstaff AZ

I don't know much about Arab lines (other than I know these are considered "good"). I am a Foundation Quarter horse person mostly & my other horses are Foundation Quarter horses with roping lines (Driftwood & Lucky Blanton still on the papers).

He doesn't have any other white on him. My understanding is that his get have pretty nice personalities.

He has turned out to be a good horse that we love (& actually is a better heel horse than a lot of Quarter horses around here - he runs, rates, & stops with all his heart), but I think he will always remain a very intense individual.
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 10:29 pm:

Penner,

I don't know ANYTHING about bloodlines on any breed, really, but those certainly sound important. :-) . . . . He has an amazing story, and he must be some kind of amazing horse . . . and you folks must be some kind of amazing yourselves to not have given up on him when he was acting like he wanted to kill you . . . .
Do you have a picture of him doing his "cow" thing?
Holly
Member:
Socaldug

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 12:29 am:

i often wonder while riding (i'm still a nervous wreck after getting tossed on my keester 3 times) if a little bute would work...

maybe one for the horse and TWO for me :-)

naaa. guess not
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 1:00 am:

Doug,
You don't need bute, you need a seat belt! I'm convinced by reading your posts that you are a perfect match for that horse and just quirky enough to be an Arab owner.

My QH friend wrote that some trainers were busted for using Prolixin and/or Reserpine on Quarter horses, shoot. I went to a show once with my friend and we put her horse in the stall after his class, went had lunch, walked around, had a couple of beers, bought some stuff, came back hours later and Her Horse Was Standing In The Same Spot!!! Who needs drugs?! LOL

I just took my horse to ride around a new arena and she was snorting her lungs out before I got on her and the H/J People DrOlly said "It's the Black Stallion" and I sheepishly said "er, uh it's the Black Mare..."

But you know, I like a horse that interacts with it's environment!
Member:
Parfait

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 1:14 am:

Penner,

His bloodlines are more in the "great" range because he has some wonderful, prized blood so close up but what a shame he was so damaged before you got him. I know of a lady right now who also has a halter stallion ( or x-halter stallion) who is having such a hard time getting his head together. He also reaches around to bite the rider. She is taking her time and will eventually get him going, I think.

You have done such a wonderful job with a beautiful animal. I hope some day, true horsemen will be halter showmen. Then we won't have tragedies like your poor horse, or my friend's horse to try to recondition or destroy. Bless you for your work with him.

Kerry
Member:
Socaldug

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 1:53 am:

a seat belt... YES! that sounds great!

quirky? HAHAHAHA (yup, thats me)

all kidding aside, i would never drug a him... if he was drugged up i wont know when he (and i) are cured/trained/mellowed-out/happy/trusting/etc.

i'll just wear butt pad, knee and elbow pads, up my insurance, and KEEP ON READING :-)

Member:
Penner

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 4:18 pm:

The pic didn't upload, it too big. I will try again.
Member:
Penner

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 4:59 pm:

Hi Holly,
I don't have a pic of Shezaad roping, in fact this is the only pic I have of us roping (my brother in law took it). I don't have a camera that takes good action shots (but I am working on getting one!).
Phil is heading (he now heels tho), & I am "hazing" the steer to keep it running straight, away from the fence on the right. The position I am in however, is where a heeler normally is.
Team Roping
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 6:42 pm:

Thanks, Penner . . . .

I can see his wonderful croup and tail :-) . . . and his feet are flying.

I expect you have ridden quite a few horses . . . would you call Shezaad pretty speedy when compared to the rest?

Thanks,
Holly
Member:
Penner

Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 2:02 pm:

Hi Holly, sorry for the less than great pic :-( .
Anyway, our arena is 360' long, so in that distance, Shezaad is just as fast, & takes off just as fast as a Quarter horse. But theres more than speed to roping.
The biggest reason people don't use Arabs for roping is their smaller size. You want a more muscular horse to take the jerk on the rope (when you rope the steer & dally on the horn, its a 400# or more jerk the horse has to take, then keep the rope taut & tow to the left at a run, if you are a header). As a heeler, the short legs & big HQ of a quarter horse, helps them "sit down" to slow the steer from behind. At the level of competition roping we do (I guess it would be the equivalent of a B or C show), it really doesn't matter if Shezaad sits down as deep. In upper levels it would tho, as people win these big ropings by just 100ths of a second.

The steer in that pic is around 400#. We measured Shezaads wgt 2 ways (formula (HG**2 * L)/330):
Shezaad HG = 66 L = 68 Wgt By Formula = 898 Wgt by tape = 769

then my head horse...

Ramrod Wgt by Formula = HG = 76 Length = 77

Wgt = 1347 (formula I read, is more accurate in wide chested horses).

The steer almost weighs 50% of Shezaad & would knock him over if we headed on him, he still gets a "jerk" when the hind legs are roped, but its not as bad & he doesn't have to tow. We also use a very lightweight saddle on him, a Wintec 15#er. My head horse is carrying a roping saddle that weighs 45# (the tree is heavy - rawhide covered wood so it doesn't break, or the horn doesn't tear off from roping. The Wintec is the lightweight Ralide tree & its a cloth saddle).

What (I think) is separating Shezaad from some other Qtr horses at this level of competition - is that he is trying harder - the horse has heart. Not all horses want to do this (just like some don't like to jump etc).

Hope this was informative :-)

PS Kerry: thank you for your kind words. I hope you friend has a happy ending too with her Arabian.

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