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Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2002 - 5:46 pm:

After working with a 5 year old guilding for about one and a half hours in the round pen I then tried mounting, he is ok with me mounting but then he starts to lay down front feet first. He is ok with taking the bit, the saddle and the workout. Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Cooley
TX

Posted on Monday, Feb 11, 2002 - 10:19 pm:

May I ask you some questions in order to offer more pointed and applicable advice?
1) What breed is the horse?
2) How was the horse broke?
3) How long have you been working with the horse?

Secondly, I would suggest that you not attempt to mount him until you have a plan of action in place. If he keeps laying down when mounted, he will always view that action as an option. Don't let him get any more success against you.

Finally, we have had very good experience with Equine Chiropractors. You should find a good one, look for references from others you know or trust. Have him examine and adjust your horse. (I'm presuming you have ruled out other lameness problems. And generally other lameness problems would be obvious when doing the round pen work.) It is possible that the problem is related to the added weight on the back.

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2002 - 7:32 am:

Hello Tim,
I agree with Dennis, that you need to start with ruling out pain as a problem but suggest you first start with the veterinarian. It would help if we knew you equine experience and your profile is a great place to put that. It is just a plain fact that plans need to be tailored not only to the horse but also the trainer.

You will have two basic choices:
1) Negatively reward the undesired behavior. This is usually done with a crop and may require a second person there. Be prepared for some other resistance like possibly bucking.

2) Ignore the bad behavior but do not allow it to bring the training to an end. What if you dismount and lunge the horse another few minutes and then tried again and did this until he stood?

Both of these choices can make things worse if not applied properly. Consider if this might be better done by a professional trainer.
DrO

Posted on Tuesday, Feb 12, 2002 - 11:29 am:

Thanks for the two replies. This is the first time to work with this horse, he is a quarter horse standing at 15 and 1/2 hands wieghing in at about 1100 lbs, the traing history for this horse I do not know, other than pasture for the last year. The horse is very gentle and docile. After the horse first tried this I came out of the saddle before the horse could lay down, I then checked both of the horse's front legs for heat and sensitivity and niether were present. I then tried mounting the horse again, same response wanted to lay down, out of the saddle again and another 15 minutes or so of circles and whoa's with saddle and tack still on, tried mounting again same thing wanted to lay down. I realized at this point I needed some pointers before I either re-enforced a bad habit or possibly needed a more complete checkup to rule out medical. I am not a professional horse trainer by all means, I have worked with horses in western pleasure and 4H off and on during my 42 year adventure here on earth and the time that I have been able to spend with horses has been some of the best, especially when I spent it teaching my now 13 year old boy to love horses also(I think that he now loves them as much or more than I do).

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2002 - 7:14 am:

Hi Tim
I was just curious what you are doing for the hour and a 1/2 in the round pen before you get on him?

~Barbara

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2002 - 11:43 am:

The hour and a 1/2 in the round pen was spent doing the following: cirles with a lunging line, working on whoa's voice and hand communication, and trying to "join up" so to say. Diamond got to a point of wanting to follow me like a puppy would and rub his head on me (allways like that part). Basically just really getting to know Diamond and let Diamond get to know me. I was also using a lunging whip but not actually hitting him with it, just more for reinforcement when needed. If any of the above is incorrect, please offer some corrective advice. Thanks again for the help ya'll. Tim

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 13, 2002 - 2:54 pm:

I've been curiously following this post. At this point I am wondering; would an option be to ask the horse for forward motion and be foucsed on keeping the head up before it decides to lay down?

I have had new horses try to buck or dance around in the round pen while going through the mounting exercise, but never lay down. When I get an undesired response I send them away (we use free longing round penning techniques).

Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2002 - 12:00 am:

Tim,

We mispoke when we forgot to say use your vet first. (Our apologies Dr. O!). The point though is you need to rule out medical/physical problems.

Good luck, we are rooting for you!

Dennis & Beth

Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2002 - 5:40 pm:

Hi, Tim,

I just read your post for the first time this evening. I'm inclined to agree with Tara.

In one of Mark Rashid's books, he describes a Mustang who was so sensitive to moving away from pressure that he interpreted the pressure on his back as meaning to lay down. If this were a horse I was working with, I would shorten up on my left rein so that the horse's head was brought to the side as I mounted. I would keep the horse's head to the side and then ask for forward motion as soon as I felt or saw the horse give any indication of going down.

My guess is that the horse is doing what he thinks you want him to do. Whatever you use as your verbal move signal can be given as soon as you settle into the saddle. Most of the time, we are working to help horses know that they should stay still after they are mounted until they are asked to move. In effect, your horse is moving downward without your permission, but he may not know that, so I would ask him for forward motion instead.

Holly

Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2002 - 7:21 pm:

I don't have experience with a horse lying down, so forgive if this isn't going to help! but: if it's sensitivity to pressure, then would it make sense to put say a grain sack over the saddle, then walk the horse around, then increase the weight and repeat? That might get the horse used to the notion of carrying weight, before it has to deal with the live person up there.

Also, an hour and a half seems like a very long time for a training session (mentally tiring).

Posted on Thursday, Feb 14, 2002 - 10:18 pm:

Melissa,
That sounds like a practical suggestion to see if the pressure really is cueing the horse to lay down.
Holly

Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2002 - 10:35 pm:

Not to be a kill-joy, but the grain sack won't work well. The grain will sift to one side or the other and how ever you have it affixed it won't stay centered on the saddle. You might even risk injury if the horse gets scared and starts running away from the dead weight sack of grain that is tied to him not to mention the potential of the girth slipping and the saddle going to the side. (At a parade I witnessed once a young girl who undid the western saddle front-cinch first and the horse spooked, the saddle turned under, the horse panicked more and in its romp it injured several people including an infant).

Mrs. Dennisaj

Posted on Friday, Feb 15, 2002 - 11:04 pm:

Ok, not a grain sack then. But some well-secured, non-shifting pounds that accustom the horse to additional weight. Do you think the idea of adding some weight without a rider will help Tim?

Posted on Saturday, Feb 16, 2002 - 2:08 pm:

Tim & Melissa:

Yes I do think it would be great to try some weight. But it is difficult if not impossible to duplicate a rider where all the weight is around the pelvic fork. Dr. O seemed to suggest a two person job with rider and ground person. Maybe a young (teenage) cowboy, who is a (very) good rider (maybe a bull rider), not too heavy, and not afraid of getting bucked.

My wife tends to believe that a horse who lays down when mounted is a very smart horse. And the habit must be broke if the horse is to have any value other than pasture decoration.

But FIRST rule out any physical causes. If there is a back problem or some such, then any weight will add to the pain and perhaps worsen the situation.

Tim, keep us psoted on your progress. We want to here the "rest of the story".

Dennis & Beth

Posted on Saturday, Feb 16, 2002 - 2:29 pm:

Dennis, I agree on the physical causes being the first thing to check out. My saddlefitter says he's seen horses that literally crumpled when girthed up with a saddle that fit poorly, that might be another thing to look at in addition to any back pain. Also agree re using 2 people, one on the ground -- I misread the post and thought Tim had already tried that!
Melissa

Posted on Monday, Feb 18, 2002 - 6:18 am:

Melissa's post makes me wonder about possible seizure as a medical cause. The message from her farrier reminds me that narcoleptic like fits are common in horses on cross ties or when being tacked. If the horse is left alone when he goes down does he look like he is asleep?
DrO

Posted on Monday, Feb 18, 2002 - 10:09 am:

Hello, Tim,
In discussing this post with a friend last night, he told me that one of his horses used to lay down with its previous owner whenever he/she mounted. The problem turned out to be that his feet were trimmed incorrectly, with the toes left too long, making the pressure on his heels or tendons too intense for him with the added weight of a rider on the horse's back. My friend's suggestion is to check his hooves/trim job.
Holly
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