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Discussion on Husband Needs to Stop Breaking Down Horses
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New Member:
Philaz
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Posted on Monday, Dec 9, 2002 - 2:42 pm:
Hello everyone. Let me introduce myself. I am Penner’s husband, the subject of this discussion. Let me start by saying that the purpose of my post is NOT to start a flame war. I simply want to explain things from my perspective. I think this is a great website, I actually originally told my wife about it. In fact I just subscribed individually myself, so that I can make full use of the site without interfering with her. I apologize for the length of this post, but I only want to improve my relationship with my horses, and my wife!
We have have a roping arena on our property, and we had 6 steers we leased last year. We bought our place two years ago. The roping season in AZ is big from October through April. As we are new to roping, we did not really know any other ropers, so from October through about February, we practiced in our arena maybe once a week if we were lucky, just the two of us. We were both heading so we never turned any steers, just steer stopped . We went to a few practices at other arenas where we got a chance to turn the steer. Over the entire last winter, I went to four round robin jackpots. Other than that we trail rode.
In about March, we met a few other ropers that we became friends with, so in March and April we increased our roping proactice to 2-3 times a week. There was probably one week where we roped 4 times. I admit that it was fun to finally have someone else to rope with and I got roping “fever” and did over do it somewhat.
I do believe in warm up and cool down of a horse before and after working him. I also believe that you need to do things slow, especially as a beginner. We had one steer that was very fast, and many times I scored him, because I just couldn’t catch him. But a few times for fun and challenge I tried to catch him.
My horse is very good at what he does, but I also realize that the rider still is the one that SHOULD be in control. Unfortunately, I got my horse to ducking out and going too fast after the catching the steer and I was having some trouble keeping him from doing this. There are a lot of things to think about when you are roping. In perspective, I would agree that I got wrapped up in the fun and excitement of the sport and overdid it during those two months.
I have owned my current horse for about two years. His right hind foot has always been larger and harder in the fetlock area than the left hind foot. At rest, he always has tended to put his weight on the left foot, cocking the right hind foot in a relaxed position. Since he never seemed off, I did not think there was much to worry about. At the end of May, my shoer came out the day after I had roped and he noted that his right hind fetlock joint area was more swollen than usual. I had the vet out to examine the foot.
The vet noted thickening of the annular ligament and suggested surgery to transect it to relieve the pressure. I had the surgery done in July. Here is my vet’s statement on what was found. “Stormy has had his annular ligament on his right rear leg transected. The digital sheath was examined and lavaged via tenoscopy. Only a few adhesions were noted and no tendon pathology was noted. The prognosis for return to function after this procedure is good.” My vet also noted that the injury showed indications of not being completely new.
I have followed my vet’s instructions for recovery and I am back to riding him again. His right hind foot will always be a little larger due to the thickening of the ligament but otherwise is fine. My wife “recommended” that I switch from heading to heeling. I have agreed to do so, and I am having fun. My horse actually likes heeling and is better at it. There is less pressure for him and myself, and I am not too bad at it myself.
So what have I learned from this experience? I have learned that I need to question things more. Long before last June, I should have had my vet examine his foot. I will never know for sure if the the surgery would have been recommended earlier, or if my indifference to the problem made things bad enough to necessitate the procedure.
I never got involved with animals until I became an adult. This is not an excuse, but I know my lack of understanding that an animal can’t tell you what is wrong with him has led to do some dumb things that I won’t do again.
My wife stated that I have “gone thru” 4 horses in 10 years. The first horse, Smokey, was a strong and fun Morgan-Quarter cross. He was a ranch horse. I think he was 17 when we bought him. We did a lot of trail riding and team penned a fair amount. We roped a couple of times too. One day on a trail ride, we noticed that he was frequently urinating, only small amounts. He seemed otherwise fine. A few days later, he colic’ed very bad. By the time we found him it was already in a serious state. My vet treated him vigorously, but he was unable to recover. We had to put him down. I learned the hard way that frequent urination can be caused by abdominal irritation.
After Smokey, I bought an old rope horse named Chance. He was 15, not that old, but he had been ridden hard. He had heart, but his legs were loaded with arthritis. During the four or five years I had him, I roped a handful of times, and during the last two years I hardly rode him at all. One day the shoer came out and found that when he started to trim him, his coffin bone had rotated way down. My vet and shoer did the best they could but the rotation continued. We had to unfortunately put him down too. I can’t say I really did anything wrong with Chance. He just had too much wrong with him.
My next horse, was a five year old, with the head of a 2 year old. He had 30 days of roping on him. He was physically sound but his head was not screwed on right. From what I knew of him, the previous owner kept him in his stall most of the time. He never seemed to mature out of the young horse state. He was too small for a head horse too. The last straw was when he chewed my wife’s horse’s tail off. He was sold the next day. The mistake I made here was picking a horse that was not right for me and what I wanted to do. After having a horse who was always lame I was taken too much just by the fact that he was young and healthy.
By now you are probably thinking…typical stupid male. And after writing this, I can pretty much agree with you. That wasn’t really what I was thinking when I started out writing this. The biggest thing my wife gets mad at me about is not taking the time to learn something. I guess you can see that I have only learned some pretty important things by doing the wrong thing first.
Well anyway, that’s why I am here on this website. Hopefully I can learn a lot more and maybe help someone else from making some of the mistakes I have made.
Happy Holidays Everyone!
Phil
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Dec 9, 2002 - 4:39 pm:
Thanks for sharing, Phil. I always enjoy Penner's posts. Isn't writing a great therapy? Really helps us think things through. Thank you for your honesty. Good horsemanship is learned over time and with experience . . . . .and we're all always learning . . . . as long as we realize we'll never know it all, there's hope for us and for our horses.
Blessed Christmas to you and your family.
Holly
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Member:
Dartanyn
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Posted on Monday, Dec 9, 2002 - 6:13 pm:
What a wonderful post Phil. I have an engineer for a husband and getting around to "doing things" is a slow process as he thinks things through from many different angles before he acts. So for those of us who are in a hurry, quick-minded, or more forwardly inclined he can feel like a damper on our spirit at times. None-the-less; the benefit to me is in the balancing of the 2 of us! My zeal and fervor matched against his calculating thought can come up with PERFECT solutions to our endeavors. Now, that is about 20% of the time, the rest is like the ocean for ups and downs, power and pitch, hit and miss - I wouldn't trade it, and I love the challenge of learning to work with it to be the best of our marital abilities! Best to you too on that count, and to Penner! Dawn 
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Member:
Albionsh
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Posted on Monday, Dec 9, 2002 - 11:17 pm:
Welcome to this list, Phil. I appreciate hearing your side of the story! Usually the truth lies somewhere between the extremes of the two perceptions....I also appreciate the interest you show in horses--wish my husband would show even 1/4 as much. It is good to see that you are learning from your experiences. We have all fallen in love with a horse that isn't really "perfect" for our needs, but the learning experience is in what we do about the situation once we realize our mistake. Some times I find that either the horse or even myself can undergo "retraining", but sometimes it is better to cut the loss and move on to a more suitable mount. Thanks again for "your side"
Nancy
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Member:
Chrism
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 - 5:02 pm:
Welcome "Mr. Penner." Good for you for checking in.
I've found the horses always have something to teach us about ourselves and them. This is a great site to learn.
I've also found there are usually two sides to every story, just like there are two sides to every fence. It is good to read yours!
You might enjoy getting your hands on one of Mark Rashid's books - A Good Horse is Never a Bad Color, etc. They are well written and from a man's perspective and while are stories have a lot to teach.
Cheers.
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Member:
Philaz
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 - 5:36 pm:
Hi All.
Thanks for all your encouraging words. I want to make sure that "Penner" knows, as well as all of you, that I feel pretty darn lucky to have her as my wife. She is not only a great horsewoman, but a wonderful and caring person. I want to apologize to her for not paying more attention to the wealth of knowledge she has to offer. Looking back, I can see how frustrating I must be to deal with at times!
Phil
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Dec 10, 2002 - 8:59 pm:
Hey, Phil, Are you for real? :-) If you are genuine, then I'd say that Penner is darned lucky to have you, too. I guess you are both blessed by having eachother. Best of all good things to the both of you and to your horses!
Holly
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 - 7:14 am:
Hi, Phil and welcome. We aren't much for flaming here. We can disagree and be civil too. ;) Now I am not going to give you as big a pat on the back as everyone else just because I am still concerned about what Penner has posted.
I must say when I read Penner's post I was really saddened by the workload she said you gave your horses and what sounded like a lack of regard for the well being of your mount.
I understand now that you had some older horses etc... My question to you is did/do you run them as hard and frequently as Penner posted?? I am not trying to be mean but it sounds like you ride without regard to the horse.
It sounds like you are trying to learn and that's what is most important.
Hope I didn't come down too hard...just trying to get the whole story.
~Barbara
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Member:
Philaz
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Posted on Wednesday, Dec 11, 2002 - 9:54 am:
Hi Barbara,
In the case of my current horse and the episode last spring I will definitely say I ran him too hard. I haven't totally faced up to this, but the facts are there so I am not going to deny it to myself anymore. This is the has been the first time I have gotten into something really competitive with horses, so I would not say I overworked the previous three horses I have owned.
However, what I think prompted Gloria to write this post in frustration was the fact that I continually have not made use of the knowledge she has given me in addition to my own knowledge that I have acquired during over fifteen years of being around horses.
When you are around your horse every day, you get used to his every move, almost subconciously, just through repitition. So one day, your leading him out of his stall and you detect an ever so slight hitch in his step. This should immediately raise a red flag in your mind, and get you to determine the cause. Was it a rock he stumbled over, or is there an abcess brewing in his foot?
Without getting too much into psychoanalysis, I can identify two things (at least) that I am doing wrong. The first is not trusting my own knowledge and the second is trying to wish things away by ignoring them. Now I am not the kind of guy who thinks of his horse as a machine, and doesn't care what happens to him. But in reality if the outcome is the same for the horse, I am just as guilty as he is. I have battled with coming to grips with this because I did not feel I was uncaring etc, but the horse doesn't know this.
With my previous horses, I didn't run them too hard, but I ignored critical health signs they were showing or asked them to do something they were not suited for because they were not suited for the job.
So the bottom line is I need to try a whole more to be observant and question things going on with my horse. I also need to trust my own knowledge and seek more rather than wishing problems away.
Thanks for provoking me to think some more
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Member:
Oscarvv
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Posted on Thursday, Dec 12, 2002 - 5:07 pm:
Dear Phillip
Thanks so much for responding...I appreciate your honesty and wish you, Gloria and your horses all the best.
~Barbara
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Friday, Dec 13, 2002 - 1:28 pm:
Phillip
I think your posts are really interesting and I would like to ask your advice on something. My partner Paul (who is also a think first, do it later engineer, Dawn...) is not particularly interested in the horses we look after (two of mine, two of the guy who owns the land)
However, he has decided he wants to learn the basics of how to catch them, feed them etc. to help me when I have to travel to mainland Europe for work so that I don't have to impose on friends for help (we live in a very rural area, it's quite a hassle asking people to come over).
He says, quite sensibly in my view, that he wants someone else to teach him this as otherwise it's like husbands teaching wives to drive etc. and will end in tears and arguments.
Phillip, what do you think is the best approach for learning this kind of thing from a man's point of view? I have a good friend who could teach him but her horses are very quiet and she only has tiny paddocks so I'm not sure how much he'd learn though it would give him more confidence (he is small, about 5 ft 3 inches, and all the horses are big, 16h2 and above, we have big fields and the horses are mostly quite silly thoroughbred or eventing types).
I am just asking for a bit of info about how you learned 15 years ago and anything you'd have done different, and whether you think men learn differently to women about horses.
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Philaz
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Posted on Saturday, Dec 14, 2002 - 1:52 pm:
Hi Imogen,
My first experience with horses was when I first started dating Gloria. Gloria wanted me to like horses and not be afraid of them so she was very careful to make sure that the horse I was with was calm and safe. Since I liked Gloria a lot and wanted to build our relationship, I think I put more effort into not letting my male ego get in the way of learning.
But I think men do tend think they can figure things out themselves once they learn a few basics. This can be dangerous when you try to oversimplify things. I know that more than a few times I thought the way I was doing something was the right way and Gloria disagreed. So we have had our share of arguments in this area.
I think it would be a good idea for Paul to spend time with your friend and her horses to learn some the basics. This is for a couple of reasons. The first I think is safety. If her horses are more quiet than yours than this would be a great way to get comforatble with horses. Paul may not say it, but I am sure there is some level of fear in him of horses. He will be able to overcome his fears sooner with a calm horse so that he can concentrate on learning horse care better. Hopefully your friend can introduce more challenges, such as catching the horse in an arena, as he gets better.
I think there will definitely less stress on your relationship by having your friend teach Paul. When he does get to the point of being able to work with your horses he may feel better about going to your friend for help should a situation arise while you are gone that is beyond what he can handle. This could keep Paul and your horses from getting hurt.
I hope this helps!
Phil
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 5:12 pm:
Hi Everyone,
This is continuing a very old thread about roping horses, but, I was hoping to get some input from those of you out there that are knowledgeable and that keep the horses welfare in mind.
Are tiedowns absolutely necessary for roping and barrel racing and if so why?
Are there any ropers or barrel racers out there that run without tiedowns and if so what are your thoughts or comments?
Thanks,
Lorrie
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Member:
Aletao
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 5:49 pm:
I am not versed in barrel racing or roping, but just listened to a top barrel racer from our area (one of the top few in the country consistently). She said that she feels that a tie-down is not necessary, and her opinion is that it's a "cheap fix." Hope this helps.
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 6:14 pm:
If a horse is taught to give its nose down to light pressure, a tie-down is not necessary. I agree with Aleta's post. Check out any of John Lyons's or Clinton Anderson's methods on teaching a horse to be light to rein pressure. The training takes time (more or less, depending upon the horse and upon the teacher's ability to reward correct responses consistently and immediately), but it is SOOOOOO worth it whether you are working in speed events or just poking along down the trail.
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Member:
Longride
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 6:16 pm:
Phillip - reading as a way to learn is not for everyone, but there is a book out called Conditioning the Sport Horse by Hilary Clayton that goes in to how to condition horses for the specific sport they are used for. I hope to be able to use it as a text and offer a continuing ed course at Wilkes CC on just this subject. The knowledge you gain by knowing how muscles work and how they break down is essential in high speed sports like cutting and roping. PM me if you would like more info.
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Tuesday, Feb 8, 2005 - 8:59 pm:
Thanks Aleta & Holly,
I too think that tiedowns are a cheap fix and would never ride with one. All of the horses that I work with are taught to give to the slightest pressure whether by touching the poll or nose or whatever body part I want to move.
The reason that I ask is because I am working with a very open minded ropers horse using "natural horsemanship methods" and yes Holly it does take longer but the results are sooo worth it.
He's happy, the horse is happy, I'm just wondering if I can find some ropers out there who don't use tiedowns (which only teach a horse to push into pressure)to help to convince this individual that he can rope without one.
So all you ropers out there, let me know what your thoughts are!
Thanks,
Lorrie
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 9:51 am:
Hi, all,
Is the tiedown you are talking about a standing (fixed) martingale? Do you attach it to the bit or to the noseband?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 11:34 am:
Noseband . . . never seen one attached to a bit(ouch)
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 1:33 pm:
Thanks, Holly.
You're right, attaching it to the bit is cruel, but I've seen people do it. They say the horse "goes" better. Go figure.
Lorrie, a tiedown from breastplate to noseband is not a fix for a horse that pulls on the reins and it will not teach a horse to give to pressure. It will very likely teach an untrained horse to lean against pressure. It is not a training tool.
But on an already well trained horse, a tiedown serves well a couple of purposes.
In very tight, irregular maneuvers like in polo, roping or battle reenactment, where you need your hands free and your mind on the game, the horse occasionally and unexpectedly needs a fifth "leg" as a balance aid, and that's where a tiedown comes handy. Supporting him in the mouth with the reins is incorrect, if at all possible under the circumstances.
Also, should the horse stumble in very fast work, you'll need to catch him in the mouth to support his head or risk a tumble. A standing martingale is better, isn't it?
I would actually suggest a standing martingale for every well trained horse in fast work if full neck extension is not necessary as in jumping or racing.
All the best,
Christos
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 2:54 pm:
Hi Christos,
I think you may have misread my second post, I DO
NOT use tiedowns and agree that they only teach a horse to lean against pressure, opposite of what I am currently teaching this horse.
In my opinion this horse needs lots of work in learning to give to pressure and working at speeds faster than a walk without becoming overly emotional as well as a list of others things such as learning lateral flexion, overall suppling, etc.
I was just hoping to convince the owner that after he learns all these things that he should continue to ride him without a tiedown, if that is possible to do with a roping horse.
Best to you,
Lorrie
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 3:23 pm:
Yes, Lorrie,
I understood that you don't use a tie-down. I only meant to emphasize your point by saying that it is not a cheap fix, it is no fix at all.
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Member:
Lorrieg
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Posted on Wednesday, Feb 9, 2005 - 8:26 pm:
Well then, right on Christos!
Lorrie
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 7:35 am:
I forgot to mention what is considered the main reason for a tiedown. That's to prevent the horse from shooting it's head up, hitting the rider in the face.
Now that means that the horse is poorly schooled and the rider's position is the worst it can be, so in my opinion they don't belong in fast work, but still, one sees such combinations quite often.
If that's the case, a tiedown may be mandatory to avoid a knockout.
PS: I'd still let the knockout happen if the rider's head is so thick, in hope that the brain will be knocked into proper function, but I can't suggest such things here, can I ?
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 9:32 am:
Of COURSE you can suggest it, if you consider such "non-training" a type of horse abuse . . . although, if such a rider DOES get hit in the face, it will more than likely result in more abuse toward the horse, in one way or another.
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Member:
Christos
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Posted on Friday, Feb 11, 2005 - 4:16 pm:
Yes, Holly, I believe that "racing" a horse (any discipline) before he or the rider is ready for the task is the most common form of horse abuse and one that most often goes unnoticed.
You are right, it is also my experience that people do not learn from such incidents. Unfortunately, not even from tragic accidents. It's wishful thinking that things would work that way...
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