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Posted on Monday, Jun 17, 2002 - 4:24 pm:

My question is this. I'm 38 years old and am having confidence problems (emotional issues that do not have anything to do with my horse, however it is affecting us!) My 9 year old 1/2 Egyptian Arab and 1/2 paint gelding likes to test me, he will spook, not runaway mind you, just stutter step, however, that gets me going and I want to get off. He's never done anything wrong to me. He's respectful, eager to see me and minds very well on the ground and in the saddle when my head is on straight). He is a tad bit spoiled (he's my first horse, I've had him for 3 years), but he's not disrespectful. He does team penning and dressage. He's a great horse, I've got 15 people that want to buy him - two say he's too much horse for me. (Most say that I will never sell him) However, I'm determined to get over my issues and really enjoy him -- again, he's never done anything to hurt me.

My question is this: I've been told to whap him with a crop when he does the spooking thing. I'm afraid he'd start bucking. How do you know if he's really testing or if he's really scared? Is hitting him the way to fix it? My dressage trainer does and it does seem to work, but I've also noticed that he's more apt to spook now then before he was trained (could be he has more muscle and energy though, not necessarily because he's been hit.) My trainer says if she doesn't do that, he'd spook at everything -

His feed is oat/wheat/barley hay mix - 1 cup equine senior and 1 cup rolled barley - 12 lbs a day total. He's 1137 lbs and is 15.3 hands. I don't believe this is the issue.

He's only had a snaffle in his mouth and I use a running martingale to help me with quieting my hands and keeping his head out of the sky when I'm on him.

I've had his saddle refitted - it's fine.

I'm looking for things/options to try.

Thanks!

Posted on Monday, Jun 17, 2002 - 5:11 pm:

I tend to think a horse spooks (or props, like you describe) because 1) something attracts his attention that is startling, and/or 2) he may be easily bored or distracted and lack focus/attention span.

When I started the dog in obedience, it was clear to me his attention span was very, very short, and he was very easily distracted by anything (esp. birds - he's a setter, that's his breeding). Over time, his mind "muscle" built up and his attention span lengthened, he became conditioned to do more with me and pay attention for longer periods ... and he became much more focused on our obedience sessions. (Obedience and setter is kind of an oxymoron.)

In retrospect, I think the same can be said for many horses. You set them up to do the task at hand and make it interesting enough that their attention span gradually increases and they can maintain focus for longer periods of time. Changing the tasks freguently - bend, direction, should fore or in, figures ... walk/halts/trots/canters ... the more frequently to ask for a change, the less likely the horse will become distracted by the gremlin in the bush.

So, rather than a smack (which gives the horse justification for being fearful - "what's that???" smack "ouch" "ooh, my person is tense/scared" "run, save yourselves"), I would try to anticipate scary things and the moment I felt the horse tense or feel distracted I would "ride it through" by asking for a change in activity - directional change, gait change, halt, shoulder fore (away from scary object), etc. I would not let the horse have time to be fearful. Many people stop at fearful objects and stroke the animal to reassure it - I wouldn't do this at all either.

Just ride along as there is absolutely no problem and apply lots of requests that keep the horse focused on you or regains the horse's focus on you are the key.

I would call this "leadership by example" horsey style.

Hope it gives you some ideas.

Posted on Monday, Jun 17, 2002 - 8:21 pm:

I feel the same way, Aileen. My mare (and she is bitchy) is well-behaved, responsive, and responds well to voice commands, especially on ground work.

But I am unsure on her back. If she is startled, or doesn't want to move out, I panic.

I, too, feel a whop would be helpful but I don't want a bucking session.

Posted on Monday, Jun 17, 2002 - 8:58 pm:

My mare, Mele can also be a handful under saddle at times (of the month;), but if after a squeeze and then a bump with my calf, she doesn't respond, she get's a swat right in her barrel behind my calf. Most of the time all I have to do is reach for the over and under and she responds.

I wouldn't, however, swat her for spooking. I believe there are certain instinctual behaviors that have helped prey animals survive. When Mele spooks, I just relax and go with it. They are usually very short lived so I just go on about what I was doing prior to the spook. As long as I remain calm, she understands that there is nothing to be frightened over. Hope this helps.

Leilani

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 10:18 am:

Thank you so much for all of the great input and advice, it is greatly appreciated!!!

After thinking about it a little more, it was the people at my barn that told me to hit him, not my trainer, she tells me to ask him to go forward, like Chris said. My trainer has only gotten after him when he was being a little devil!!

The last time I rode him I was doing serpentine's at the walk (at the beginning of our session) when he spooked and fell to his knees (no I didn't fall off!(;). so I just walked him to the arena gate, got off and walked him back to the barn. Now granted it was fairly windy, I was alone in the arena, and I didn't have a helmet on, so here's the confidence thing (Note: The other day one of my friend's horses had reared and fallen back on the rider, she was hurt fairly badly, so that didn't help my confidence thing either) ... Any ideas on this, aside from wearing a helmet and not riding alone?

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 12:44 pm:

Yes, wear a helmet every time. Riding alone is okay, just do things to "ride smart." If absolutely no one is around, keep a cell on your person in the event you are injured and unable to move.

Teach your horse to lunge. The situation you described - spook, fall down, get off and return to barn rewarded the horse for spooking by work ending. Instead, get off and lunge your horse. He still works and you are safe.

Use lunging at the start of a ride to transition from play to work with rider as an intermediate step. If you horse f*rts around on the lunge, then extend the lunge time until he settles and is behaving. If he is quiet on the lunge, then get on sooner. Younger horses sometimes have some ya-yas they need to let go off and a lunge is a good place.

Have a routine for preparing to ride.

As far as rearing, that is the ultimate resistance to going forward. While any horse can rear, most don't. If yours hasn't shown any tendancy to do so, it is unlikely he will. However, you want to be sure you aren't blocking with your hands (elastic contact is good, blocking with unyielding hands/elbows is bad), a leg is always draped on and if he is balky - i.e. you squeeze to go forward and doesn't, reinforce with a small tap with the whip and allow him to go forward. Went he does, praise him for doing so. Create a 1-2-3 response to the forward request. 1 is ask subtley with a squeeze, 2 is ask again with a bit more pressure or a slight boot with a heel/ankle and 3 is a tap (not smack) with a whip behind your calf. The moment a horse responds with forward praise and let him be forward. Some horses need this in every warm up to be forward for the ride.

As far as rider confidence, it comes with time. Stop imagining "what if" make some plans for "if" and then enjoy the ride. The more confidence you have, the more your horse will respond.

I was told years ago, "Horses don't like cream puffs." In other words, you must be the leader or the horse will look for someone else (himself?) to fill the leadership role.

In the work place, a leader is consistent, firm, gentle, forgiving, sets a good example, and can a apologize. They make a plan and work the plan, but are smart enough to alter it if it needs altering. A leader says thank you and good job. A leader says no, makes a correction and coaches for better performance. A leader doesn't hold a grudge. A good leader inspires people to do their best. People seek to be under their good leadership. They place their trust in a good leader.

I see no difference when we provide leadership to our horses.

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 1:06 pm:

Amen!!!

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 2:15 pm:

Thanks Christine! I'm actually going to a Mark Rashid clinic in October, your leadership comments sound a lot like what he writes!

I did get back on him, however, not until I got back to the barn (:(

My horse has never offered to rear with me in the saddle, however he has done levades when not asked!(Before training...;)

My confidence level has mostly to do with me, myself and I; however, the two times I've come off a horse (in the 4.5 years I've been riding) were when the horses stumbled -- not my horse though. Once the horse fell on me. I was more than just a little disconcerted, but it's something I'm determined to get over.

He does lunge well and I'll start with this.

Thank you so very much! I appreciate any and all input!!

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 2:19 pm:

Since your horse is no longer a youngster and should know better, I think you are dealing with a horse who is "playing" games with you mentally. Since you wrote that you are working on "confidence," the horse IS being "disrespectful." He's not listening to YOU, he's looking around, using his brain to figure out how to get out of work.

I've read plenty of books on this subject of spooking, and each and every one of them will tell you it is the horse having a confidence problem with the rider. So what to do?

First, when he spooks you need to move him forward, relax your body (don't tense) and become firm with him. Spanking, whipping, whacking, or whatever is not going to work as it makes a "big deal" out of the spook. As the rider you don't even notice the spook - you go on as if nothing happened. If you make a production out of the spook, your horse learns that you are afraid of the *SCARY THING* and then he takes that fear and continues with it.

Second, the reality is that he is using the spook to get out of work - so you work his a** off right after a spook. You make him LISTEN to you by doing circles, spirals, figure eights, change of direction, upward transition etc.. You get him WORKING not goofing around - this is like a kid daydreaming when he should be in class. Once he sees that spooking ONLY gets him more work he will realize it is not worth it.

Thirdly, never give up with your horse after a spook - this just reinforces to them that they will get out of work with their silly business. After the fall, get the horse up and after checking to make sure nothing was physically wrong, keep riding OR go lunge (as someone else suggested).

I really hate to sound so mean, but you REALLY need to ride with a helmet. You just witnessed an accident where the horse reared and went over backwards, so I think you know why. If you ride alone, then you can lunge your horse beforehand to get a feel for his mood and work out some of the hi-jinks. If you still don't want to ride because you are alone, look into doing something else like Roundpen work with your horse.

Do you have access to a trainer or instructor locally to give you some help? Also, I was wondering - just because this happened at a barn where I was at - how many accidents have happened at the barn where you board your horse? Some places just are a haven for accidents due to nervous horses, no routine, sloppy barn management, irregular feeding schedules, no consistent safety rules etc...

The first horse I leased would spook with me but not her owner (a more experienced rider then me). After I had a riding accident (on another horse) and came back to my regular horse he could sense I was scared - since we formed a bond - he actually stopped spooking as a "game" and carried me safely.

My current mare was also playing the "spook game" because she was very herd bound. A couple of them and we went to a firm - you will go forward and suddenly work, work, work, took care of this problem.

Good luck!

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 3:30 pm:

Thanks for the input Rebecca! You're not being mean about the helmet issue, I had forgotten it that day! I also went to the GRIT site...great info. I need to practice relaxing when I'm tense!

I do have a trainer that comes up twice a week to work with me. I was actually on her horse when the "bad" accident happened so she kind of knows what's going on in my mind. I'll ask her to lunge me, maybe that will help.

I live in an equine community. The barn my guy is at has a stall and a 48' paddock. We are responsible for feeding, cleaning, etc. our own horses. So the consistency is a bit off, however I am not - I am on a strict schedule, therefore, so is his feeding, cleaning etc. His turnout is sporadic, however, sometimes he can stay out all day, sometimes an hour, but mostly 2-4 hours. I'm at the mercy of another boarder who has an acre paddock as to when I can turn him out, but she's very kind to let me use it when I can...

There have been 7 "bad" accidents - where the riders have gone to the hospital in the last 2 years. Four at the barn - the rest on trails - life flight was used on all.

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 3:46 pm:

Hi Aileen -

I'm glad you posted again because I was thinking of your spook problem more. When my mare started spooking I started making excuses - new barn,new situation, stupid horse in the paddock bucking around, etc... and I sought a bunch of help from various horsey books I have. What's interesting is that the advice from experts don't care if the spook is "real" or just daydreaming/testing! What you should do is the same - relax, forward, make horse work!

What I do is if we are circling and I know X is the spot where she is leary or spooking, I make her do a shoulder-in as we approach the spot. You need to make the horse approach - hopefully, while doing some sort of movement that requires their attention - and then pass the area while working "on the bit." When your horse is working forward, attentive to YOU, then the horse will not spook.

I know it sounds hard but you can do it! and there is nothing like a confidence builder when you actually force a bratty horse to do what you want -

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 3:53 pm:

It's me again :P I wanted to post about this separately and it's about your barn and the accidents. My advice? Get OUT.

Let me explain. When we came up here to Tulsa, I started riding at an eventing barn. The horse I rode was a dead-broke schoolhorse (I was recovering from a major riding accident). But - in the two years I was there, many accidents - two resulting in ambulance calls. And I ended up having two accidents on the dead-broke horse!

As time went on and I really kept my eyes on the situation, I saw that the barn was contributing to the atmosphere of "accident prone." For instance, the barn instructor/owner was a very laid back person who let people get away with murder. She rarely intervened or was a 'force' in the barn on policy. She let 12 year olds do the feeding and often they messed up the feed or skipped horses etc... Water buckets weren't regularly filled on a daily basis.

Riders were sloppy about bringing their horses into lessons or riding over people while they were jumping. One rider in particular was a walking accident zone - someone coming back to riding after 20 years who decided to train a horse from the ground up - it was UGLY - lots of control battles etc...

The atmosphere of sloppiness in both feeding and care schedules, and a major lack of leadership led to (IMO) some very serious injuries.

If this sounds like your barn, PLEASE look for another place. This probably sounds weird, but accidents are as contagious as cribbing or weaving to a barn of horses.

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 4:10 pm:

Aileen,

I enjoyed your profile picture. Your horse is very handsome! You look good together.

You may want to keep a ride journal. Note how your horse was doing and any environment things that may have affected him. Also note the good things that worked and your goals. You will find, over time, your focus items will shift and your skills/results get better and better. This type of improvement can be slow, so the journal helps you to see "how far" you've come. Try assigning a confidence number after each ride on a 1-5 scale. After a bit, you may see what triggers you to be insecure ... or you may see a trend of improving confidence.

Practice breathing while riding - inhaling and holding your breath is a sure sign to the horse that something worries you. If necessary, sing while you ride for a while to make a habit of breathing.

Also, when you ride by yourself, you may want to ride in a western saddle if it makes you feel more secure.

A bucking strap on the dees of your English saddle is a respectable addition for security. Or a length of cotton rope or old stirrup leather around the horses neck as a grab strap is useful, too.

Having your trainer work with you to improve your seat by lunging you on the horse (once he lunges respectably) is also very good.

Riding another steady, reliable horse is also a good confidence builder if one is available. Especially if the steady horse is well schooled - that can teach you the feel that you can turn around and work with with your own horse.

Good luck. Over time, you will become more secure. But, never become complacent in the saddle.

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 6:24 pm:

Thanks Rebecca! I WILL be more focused the next time I ride him and I WILL get him focused on me!!(;) On the barn issue...There are quite a few horses that seem to get away with A LOT!! One will take off racing around the arena when the owner is trying to lunge him. He does it EVERY time! Very intimidating when an out of control horse comes racing up to a horse and rider, not knowing what he'll do! I tend not to ride in the arena when they are, however, I just ride around outside.

The barn is kept very clean and we have automatic waterers. The people at the barn are actually pretty good, the accidents were "freak." Except for the rearing one! Not that I know for sure, but I think the problem lies with people who THINK they know what they're doing so they don't bother asking for advice when their horse is out of control - yet continue to bring their horse to shows and team penning events in the arena where the horse goes ballistic~

Go figure...oh well, I'll just keep mine focused on me, and stay away from them, right?

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 6:32 pm:

Christine,

Thank you for your compliment on my guy, I think he's great! I'll take your advice and apply it, especially on the breathing, too many times I find I'm holding my breath(;)!

I will try journaling, I do have both a western and a dressage saddle and will use them accordingly.

Thanks again to everyone, you've made me feel MUCH better!! If anyone has any more thoughts, tips or tricks let me know! I relish learning all I can!

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 18, 2002 - 7:00 pm:

BTW, Christine, your profile picture is great (I envy you...my goal is that one day I'll be doing dressage as elegantly as you!!) and I love "less is more," Rashid uses that phrase too. Thanks again!

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 19, 2002 - 7:10 am:

Aileen,

I have an Arabian and this winter he suddenly started this spook bolt thing. ( Normally, he just does a little miss step kind of spook but it wasn't often) The first time it happened some horses surprised us. I got us stopped and petted him and finished our ride then the next one was a spin and bolt-I didn't see what spooked him but later found there was a water fall around the corner. It was a very scarey spook as the ground was frozen and rutted and I thought for sure he would hurt himself (I was bareback also)That time I got off to calm him anfd then got back on finished our ride. Well, the 3rd and final bolt was along side a paved road with some traffic ( 40 was the speed limit)a motorcycle was hiding behind a van-normal traffic doesn't bother him- well this really was scarey as i could just picture him swerving into the traffic or falling on the pavement. This time I got off to safely cross the paved road to the dirt road got back on and we did walk trot halt transitions-leg yielding more transitions-rode for 10 more min. then headed home.

Well, he no longer bolts off-one I'm always alert, two I think he was getting the idea that I was happy that he had saved us from the horse and owner eating boogie man. He needed to know that I was "on duty" not him. So keep your mind active as well as his. Chris' advise is so true-a busy mind has no time to worry! Kim

BTW-wow, nice picture Chris! Aileen -you and your horse look like a picture in an ad when I was a kid that I thought was so neat as they seemed to be a matched set.

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 19, 2002 - 10:38 am:

Kim,

Wow! You ride bareback and can stay on a horse that spooked! I envy you too!!! I can ride only at the walk bareback...One day I'll get there!Right now I feel that if he were to take up a trot (while bareback) I'd feel like a weeble!! Do bareback pads make a big difference? He's so slippery!

I know he trusts me on the ground, he never "runs me over" or anything if he spooks on the ground. Evidently I need to get my head straight (and work on breathing(;) so he knows he can trust me in the saddle as well!

Thanks for the input and the compliment, very sweet, and only reinforces my determination to not have to break up the set!!!

PS. BTW, your guys are adorable!

Posted on Thursday, Jun 20, 2002 - 7:04 pm:

Ohh, thanks for the nice picture compliments. It is amazing what a professional photographer can do, ;O)

That was taken at a show last October. Silke was 18 at the time. She continues to do well - Dr. O's advice all the years must be doing the trick!

Aileen, if it makes you feel any better, Silke broke my collar bone, fell on my leg and bruised it terribly and broke two fingers in 3 different situations. She has also dumped me in the dirt too many times to count.

With proper supervision from a competent instructor, lots of reading, education, trial and error, saddle changes, environment changes, and just pure grit on my part, she has turned into a wonderful horse that taught me tons.

Now she gives lessons, is a respectable citizen and everyone wants to know how to get one like her ... if they only knew.

Your fellow sounds MUCH more cooperative, so you should make quick progress with good instructor/trainer supervision.

Cheers.

Posted on Thursday, Jun 20, 2002 - 11:12 pm:

Hi Aileen,

I've only just caught up with this discussion, and you sound a lot like me. I'm 42 and just coming back to riding after many years, and I have a real confidence problem!

I've had my horse for about 6 months, and he is spooking more and more. The other day he managed to get me off with a sort of spinning dance that must have looked quite spectacular. We live next to a golf course, and he spooked as a couple of golfers walked by with rattling golf buggies. He is very used to this - there was no real excuse. He dumped me almost at their feet! It's bad enough to fall, but worse when you have an audience!

I've been trying to ignore the problem. I keep pushing Bud and myself to go into the scary situations so he doesn't "get away with" these behaviours. It hasn't helped, it's made my confidence worse and finally resulted in the fall the other day.

I've done a lot of thinking since then. As I see it, the problem is that Bud senses my lack of confidence. I am looking for things he might spook at - he senses this and looks for things to spook at! I think it is self fulfilling. If I think he will spook, he will. It's compounded by lack of work (it's winter here and I can't ride much) and not wanting to leave his friend.

So, what to do? I need to work on my confidence so that I stop spooking, then Bud might stop too. Think about my breathing. Concentrate on the work and not what might be in the bushes. Have lots of lessons (on school horse if this inspires more confidence) Ride as much as possible - hours spent with the horse I think is the only thing that will really help my confidence.

I saw a John Lyons video about spooking. He suggests a principle "Don't ride where you can't ride, ride where you can" If there's a spooky spot, don't go too close to it for a while. Work at the other end of the arena and gradually work your way back to the spooky spot. Concentrate on the work, and your horse should too.

Also, accept that there is a confidence problem and work within that. If it's windy or other conditions where you think there might be a problem, do some ground work, lunging etc and just climb on for a little walk at the end of the session. Don't try to do anything too hard. As confidence grows, take on more challenging conditions.

I hope this is some help. You are not alone. There are many of us who love riding and don't want to give up - just need to get over this confidence thing.

Good luck,

Robyn

Posted on Friday, Jun 21, 2002 - 12:04 am:

I'd like to add my 2 cents worth here.
I am a 50+ woman who's been riding the same horse (a now 15-year-old Arab mare) for the past 10 years. She startles at everything but actually "spooks" at almost nothing. I have done everything on her from cutting to endurance to polocrosse and finally accomplished my goal of galloping bareback on her. I just mention these things to make it clear that although I do not consider myself a good rider, I am not afraid to try things.
Then, when I started getting serious about reining last year I bought a 4-year-old QH. He was well broke and we did well on trails last summer and I took him to my first show. That was a success. But over the winter, riding at my local club, we got into a few situations where he got very nervous and so did I. We had some bucking episodes that didn't bother me much at first but eventually did. Besides, he was a good hand taller than my old horse and I always felt he was too big for me.
It got to the point where I was no longer looking forward to riding. It was becoming more of a challenge than I'd signed on for. After a particularly unneerving incident I gave myself a shake and reminded myself that I'm supposed to be in this for fun.
I've just sold that horse to a younger person who has a lot more confidence than I do. She is doing great with him and he's a happy horse again.
I'm now looking for a smaller horse with a disposition more like my mare.
My point is not that anytime anything goes wrong we should trade horses, but just that at some point - at least for me - I had to rethink what I was in this for, cut my losses and move on.
Again, I'm not advising anybody else to do the same . . . just to keep it in mind as an option.

Kathleen

Posted on Friday, Jun 21, 2002 - 10:32 am:

Christine, thank you, I appreciate your comments...He is pretty cooperative and an angel compared to some, he doesn't spin or launch!

Robyn, thank you, it's so nice to know that I'm not alone in this - it helps a lot. I'll take your advice re: adverse conditions...if my trainer is there she'll help me through it!!

Kathleen, I appreciate your thoughts. I spoke with my trainer the other night and told her that a couple of people think my guy is too much for me. She said "Don't listen to them, he takes care of you and loves you. You'll make it, just keep going."

I also spoke with a friend and told her that they said he was too much for me, she said "only listen to your trainer about things like that, they probably said that because they want to buy him!" and they do...they've already asked to be first if I sell him...too bad, my trainer is already first in line!!!

My point is, I've thought about selling him, but not until I feel I'm making no progress with him. I've made great progress, it's just that sometimes I regress...(:(

My options remain open, but my determination is at an all time high right now!

Thanks again to everyone. I sincerely appreciate ALL the comments, suggestions and support I can get!(;)

Posted on Friday, Jun 21, 2002 - 1:21 pm:

Hi all,

This post caught my eye since I had this same dilemma with my mare.(you might remember my posts from last couple of years). Was it me? was it the horse? was she not trusting me? Was my lack of confidence ruining this great horse? Was the training too much? Was the barn not conducive? Was she hurt in some way? At times I thought it was the barn. Or she was in pain. Sometimes I thought it was the feed. We did full workups on her. Sometimes the employees weren't consistent or nice. Everything you guys have said here, I seemed to go thru, also. I got the best trainers. I bought the best saddles. I read all the training books. I worked on my confidence levels as best I could. What ended up happening was that I became exhausted.

And like you Aileen, I was determined. Sometimes I think too much so. And sometimes I believe that was part of the problem. You mentioned your head isn't all there with confidence issues (horse related or personal?).

The first thing I ever learned was that the horse will sense everything going on with you. If you have a bad day at work, shake it off or don't get on, my trainer used to tell me.

So, if you aren't feeling particularily confident over personal issues, I can only imagine it flows over into your riding. Its not conscious, its below the surface. Sometimes you don't even know it, BUT your horse does.

Sometimes I need my mare to let me know that I am not myself at times. I often wondered why she was so sweet (not normal) some days and so normal others... She is feeding off of my energy.

Since I am a normally hyper, active work, work, work kind of person, I unwittingly caused my mare undo stress. I created the problems I had by not looking at my actions first.

It might just be as simple as learning a relaxation skill before you hop on. Or yoga to clear your mind, etc. etc. Regaining your confidence in one area of life will also help you in the other parts, too.

So, without sounding harsh. Look first at you, what you bring to the table in terms of demeanor and thoughts, mood, patience, etc. It took awhile for me to figure this out. And its so simple. And all my horses and riding is 1,000% more fun....

jojo

Posted on Saturday, Jun 22, 2002 - 8:03 pm:

Hi,
I dont know if my advice will help but hear goes.
I owned horses since a kid right up till about 26. Then at age 39 I got a just broke pure bred arab who was 4 at the time. I never had fear or was never nervous before I had even trained arabian stallions just broke.. I guess age as something to do with it. The fact you can get hurt . I dont know. Anyway I was all gun hoe. When my young horse spooked, tried to bolt and got his head down and wam I was off. I could not walk for 3 weeks. Anyway what I did was go real slow. We walked for the next few months (not on trails) in an arena. We constantantly changed directions serpantins, circles , everything I could think of to keep him foccussed. We got to trust each other over this period. If I thought he would spook I would give him something different to do. When we trotted it just seemed natural. we moved into it slowly 1 minute the first day. We were building confidance. People said to me . What you havent even cantered? I ignored them. You have to know yourself and trust what you can both do together. He has never bucked since. He still spooks but that is getting less and less. Yes we have cantered out on a trail one day when everything seemed just perfect. It seemed natural for him and me. Go slow. I got excited when he stopped just from my seat. which we practiced from all our walking. The basics is what it all comes down to. I dont care what people say. Take your time and enjoys all the little steps. Your fears will eventually go. Believe me.Katrina

Posted on Saturday, Jun 22, 2002 - 9:13 pm:

Thanks Katrina,

I think that's good advice. Before my fall I was thinking that if I didn't keep pushing I was just being a wimp! But it did not help my confidence. I'm going to go slow now, and ride in places and at times that don't scare me. Then we can both settle down and become frends again.

Robyn

Posted on Sunday, Jun 23, 2002 - 7:11 pm:

Great news/ Keep me updated. Nothing wrong with walking everywhere. :). People told me also to get rid of my horse. I am sooooo glad I didn't. we love each other. Happy riding. Katrina

Posted on Monday, Jun 24, 2002 - 2:19 pm:

Im a little late in this discussion but I think I have another perspective. I sold a horse about 6 years ago. He was Very athletic, a huge mover, and only a little silly.
The lady who tried him was an adult who had an older horse, she wanted to move up to training level in eventing and her horse wasnt up to it. I brought him to her barn so her trainer could be there while she rode.
He was perfectly behaved but I could tell she wasnt comfortable on him. She didnt want to canter him either. I mentioned several times that maybe this horse wasn't right for her but the trainer really liked him. After she got off, I mentioned it again in front of her and her trainer once again said how they were sure they could make it work and how much they liked him. Now dont get me wrong, I think this trainer was wonderful, so much that I trailered back several times (2 hour drive!) for lessons.
To make a long story short, she bought him and had him for 4 years. She finally sold him because he was too much for her. She couldnt get him to training level eventing(I did Prelim with him). She learned a lot, fell a few times and loved him to death, but she just never got comfortable on him.
As long as you dont mind taking the time to try all the possibilities then these "challenging" horses can teach us a lot, but if you have a specific goal and a timetable, its best to go with a sure thing. Sometimes trainers get so enraptured with a horse they dont see the disconnect.

Posted on Monday, Jun 24, 2002 - 11:34 pm:

Shelley, I'm glad to see your post, and I agree it's the fit that counts, not the good intentions to "make it work" with a particular horse. I think too many times folks go out to buy a horse and "fall in love" rather than find the right partner. It's the shared experience doing something together -- eventing, dressage, whatever -- that makes for the "love" part....IMHO. Melissa

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 11:03 am:

Ouch!

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 12:46 pm:

Aileen, sorry if I was a little blunt . . . I tend to be that way.
May I reiterate, its the rider that knows the true answer. Your horse doesn't sound dangerous, if your happy just going thru the process of becoming a better rider Im sure you will learn alot from him. Just keep in mind there are plenty of great horses out there.

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 1:27 pm:

Shelley,

I value everyone's opinions. I thank you for yours and I hear you about the other great horses out there and my mind remains open...but, unfortunately, I think any horse is sensitive enough to feel my underconfidence right now.

My guy is a great horse, he's already a solid 2nd level and is working on 3rd level after being in training for 3 months...I just need a lot of work and this thread is helping me to find things I need to work on and how to go about it.

Thanks to everyone!!!

Posted on Tuesday, Jun 25, 2002 - 11:15 pm:

Aileen,

I have a nagging feeling it was my post, not Shelley's, that provoked your "Ouch!". If so, I'm sorry about being so blunt!! I'm sure your horse is wonderful, but I don't agree with your statement about any horse feeling your underconfidence. That's what schoolmasters are for. Don't be so hard on yourself.

Melissa

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 1:24 am:

Melissa and Aileen,

I think you are both right! I think my lack of confidence arose from a thoroughbred I owned about 10 years ago called Fritz. He was not a good fit! He bucked me off several times and his behaviour steadily worsened until I kept finding excuses not to ride (too busy, too tired, other priorities). I eventually sold him and have not had a horse until recently.

I bought this horse because of his temperament. I was determined not to make the same mistake again. I had hime on trial for a month before I finalised the sale. He is really friendly and nice and for the first few months everything was fine. But as winter came along a couple of things happened and my confidence nose dived! Buddy sensed this and his behaviour degenerated accordingly. I think any horse would in this situation of winter, not much work, plenty of pasture and an obviously nervous rider.

Fritz was definitely not the horse for me. I should not have persisted with him for so long. Buddy is quite different and I'm sure we'll improve together as I regain my confidence. Time will tell I guess.

Good luck Aileen, let's both take it slowly and see how we go.

Robyn

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 11:04 am:

Thank you Melissa, I appreciate your response.

Robyn, good luck to you as well...Keep me posted on your progress!

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 11:10 am:

I know I have come in on this thread at the end but maybe my contribution will help...

I did have the same problems about spooking and being run away with. It has all stemmed from 2 run aways at the canter in lessons early in my riding (I started riding as an adult) and buying a green hunter that was OTT. He got bored very easily and would invent games and enter into things going on in the next field or react to noises. Basically he didn't respect me as a rider or listen to me. After many "events" I sold him. My current horse is a more normal QH and doesn't react to much unless it is something that upsets me. This was the issue, I was expecting to be run away with, because that is what happened fairly frequently and that I would do anything to prevent it. Therefore if something was going on in the next field, I would get very tense and make him upset, and subsequently I would get run away with. My trainer thinks I am a very nervous person and I just make the horses nuts but what came first...it is the chiken and the egg senario.

Anyway, my reactions got so bad (the last incident I was shaking so badly I couldn't get off the horse) and I had become so nutty about the issue that I sought (monday) the help of a sports psychologist (will not name names but they are well known).

The gist of the conversation was that I have every right to be scared of spooking because it has happened so many times but that I should not try to prevent a spook as all horses at some time will do it, but I should be confident in knowing how to bring him back under control after the event. Changing the question has made a significant difference in how I view my riding. I thought my fears to be irrational because I couldn't control them and I was becoming more and more nervous etc, but having been told they are rational and real and I have every right to them has helped immensely.

From that conversation, I am now more confident in my ability to ride. The suggestion was even at the walk to think about "if he spooked at this instance what would I do to bring him back under control" not to think about "it's OK there is nothing here for him to spook at". The advice was also to work to establish my seat better and to learn to stop and control his speed without flipping out. My ultimate goal is to be nervous but under control.

My trainer is great and she is working with me to get these goals achieved. We have practised a lot of stops and speed control without hauling on his mouth and I have had several lunge lessons to develop my seat and make my hands more independent. Admittedly there was a minor event in the field this week which I chose to ignore and he was curious but also ultimately ignored it.

If these issues really drive you nuts, talk to someone about them. It is well worth the time and money.

Carol

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 11:41 am:

I agree that its a chicken and the egg, cycle. It's why you (Aileen) need to put the brakes on this problem as soon as you can. Here are my further two cents.

Start training your body to relax at the command of one word. For example, "butter" might mean your entire body is too melt and be relaxed. You can train your body to respond, even under moments of stress or pain, to relax. I started this with the Bradley Method when I was preparing for labor with my second child. If I could relax my entire set of body muscles with one word while actually experiencing a labor pain - you can do it too! I am not a pain lover or an exceptional person. :)

So when you are in the saddle and you feel yourself tensing you say/think "butter" (or whatever word you choose) and get the response you need from your body. It takes a lot of practice out of the saddle but does work.

Another word I use is "deep" which means to re-settle my seat, sit deep, relax the legs and get velcro on my rear end.

I would also suggest that you start Round Pen work with your horse. Even if he is trained to saddle, this work can give you added confidence in working around your horse. When you see that you can control your horse, without a saddle or bridle, it really gives a boost to your self esteem.

Again, I can't recommend the shoulder-in exercise enough. I do it at a walk when we are warming up just to get her attention and also later at the trot. This movement really makes your horse re-focus on you and since he is trained in dressage he knows the commands to do it.

About your barn again - not to harp on that - but if you have people running around with horses they let misbehave or have accidents on, this will not help your confidence. Horses do have a herd mentality - they pick up all sorts of bad habits from watching other horses including cribbing and weaving - there is no reason (in my mind) why a horse won't pick up riding problems too from watching others or being sparked by the herd member reacting to a blowing leaf.

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 12:48 pm:

I can't believe how long this post is. Actually I can!! It just shows how common a problem this is. Rebecca, you have the best responses! They are clear, complete and they make perfect sense.
I had a very limber TB once that would spook. He would spread his legs in an instant and go side ways. The result was no horse under me. I finally learned there was no way to anticipate this so I stopped anticipating (good thing!). Also I just relaxed and melted into the saddle but kept my upper body tall, that way I would just follow the saddle down when he would spook. He never unseated me again (unless he bucked which he also liked to do!). If I had never owned this horse I would have never developed such a deep seat.

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 1:35 pm:

Thanks Shelley. I think alot of these posts have been very good with their suggestions. And yes, it is a very common problem.

Often getting rid of the horse and moving onto another (a "confidence builder") is the best way to go. In Aileen's situation she does have access to a trainer and she feels that her horse isn't a confirmed problem. So --

I hesitate to mention this as a solution :) but I kept making excuses for Pepper about her spooks. Then one day she decided to pull it on me, out of the blue, and I was having PMS. Well, I didn't whip her but being without enough progesterone gave me the needed energy to deal with it firmly. The spooks melted away.

So then I knew it was me, not her. I was "letting" her do it.

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 1:59 pm:

The fact that this is a common problem actually helps a lot!

Carol, thanks for the input...I'll look for a book on sports psychology and see where it goes from there.

Rebecca, thanks again for your help. I'm pretty sure I can utilize the 'one word' command. I've already started practicing!! I hear you about the other horses, they do not board at my bard,but they use the arena...I'll be careful. Also, you're right about me "letting him" (;)

Shelley, great point about the deep seat. My dressage saddle enables me to have a deeper seat and longer legs than my western, but it's still a little odd not to have the saddle horn etc, around me while on the horse. More time in the dressage saddle will solve this I believe!

My next attempt will include a combination of breathing (singing), sitting tall, butter and deep!!

This thread is just fabulous, so many things to try which is just great because we all know that what works on one horse doesn't necessarily work on all other horses (or riders(;)

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 2:33 pm:

I would like to add another comment to this discussion. I really do think that people shouldn't beat themselves up for being nervous because I think it's just how you're made, part of your personality and I don't think it can be changed much in adults - it's not lack of willpower.

In my experience of observing horse-rider partnerships and purchases, I see that the matching of the horse and rider is vital.

- if you are a nervous person then you need a rock-steady draught-type horse. You will get nowhere and enjoy nothing otherwise.

- some people cause their own problems by overfeeding horses and not giving them enough exercise or variety. I particularly stress variety. Hacking a horse out four or five times a week without giving it a good outing every two to three weeks where it really tires itself out in a different environment is just a recipe for disaster.

- if you like jumping then buy a horse that can jump! I have seen more accidents and problems caused by nervous or green riders trying to jump horses that cat leap or trip over obstacles than almost anything else. You cannot school a horse with a bad jump to improve. They either lift in front or they don't - it's how they are born.

I would also like to refer everyone back to the excellent Reiner Klimke quote Dr O included in his recent e-zine: "When your horse has reached his potential leave it. It's such a nice
feeling when you and your horses are still friends."

If it's not working out and you are utterly demoralised then think how miserable your horse is also becoming. Don't leave the horse locked up in the stable but unridden, or stop visiting the barn (this happens a lot, any livery barn owner can tell you - here most would see one to two horses just abandoned by owners each year which they then have to feed or sell). So move on - sell the horse.

All the best

Imogen (who is still persevering after five years riding a horse a lot of people would not even get up on but we have our moments of success! Currently we are doing well as being in foal has quietened her down a good bit and I plan plenty of dressage this summer. And yes, I'm trying to find another horse but you Americans will keep coming here and buying up all the decent Irish horses and putting the prices up beyond what we can afford!!!)

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 2:40 pm:

Aileen - I also meant to say you might want to check into John Lyons, head lowering cue. There's also an exercise called "spook in place" that Lyons and Ponyboy do. It teaches the horse to respond to a fearful object in a different manner.

Any of the RP work will just help you feel better about how you can work with your horse and it helps your horse place a greater degree of trust in YOU. I feel very confident working with a horse on the ground; it's when I'm in the saddle that I can start feeling a bit wobbly. :)

You might want to check out the western training area and see if someone mentions it on Dr. O's forums. I'm also having a discussion about the RP at my homepage which has some forums - https://www.bluemoonhorse.net/community/

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 2:56 pm:

Hi Imogen - I thought you would like these quotes by Alois Podhajsky in his book, "My Horses, My Teachers":

"I learned how vital it is for successful cooperation that the two partners be sympathetic to each other and how dismal may be the daily lesson if the horse and rider do not meet in friendship."

"...the choice of the right horse for the right rider, which is a sort of matchmaking between the two creatures, and should be one of the most important concerns of any good riding instructor."

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 2:59 pm:

Per DrA's suggestion, I thought the tape by Jim Lehrer PhD (sports psychologist) was pretty good. I know he's got a book out too -- maybe your libraries will have them. Sports psychologists stress visualization (of the intended result, not the catastrophes!!), positive thinking, and mental discipline.

Lehrer coaches athletes to really embrace tough challenges with a "bring it on!" attitude -- "I can handle this, and more! I love this stress!" So, if you think about spooks, and say "yeah, give me a spook, I can deal with it, I can deal with huge spooks! I LOVE spooks!!" then now you're bringing positive passion to coping with spooks, instead of the negative emotions -- fear, anxiety, etc. which are paralyzing.

They've done studies that show what chemicals circulate in the body when you're positive and confident vs. fearful. Negative emotions dump cortisol into the body, and hinder mind and body performance. So, the key is to control your emotions, and train yourself to feel positive emotion and self-confidence on demand. Doing this, you can change your body chemistry and cope much better with stress. That's how actors create powerful performances (and real tears!) on stage. Lehrer says we need to become great actors! I think it's a very empowering approach, and at the very least you might find it turns those spooks into fun. You'll become a "spook master"!!

I think a lot of us who learn to ride as adults have to deal with fear, especially those of us who are middleaged! I was petrified heading out to the XC course at my first events. I've also had to recover (physically and mentally) from a bad fall over a jump that cracked a vertebra. Two things (beyond a great coach!) have helped me -- positive thinking, and a very self-confident horse. Without his self-confidence, I think it would have been a much longer road, and a lot less fun.

Melissa

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 3:26 pm:

Rebecca, I'll check out your site...Thanks again!

Imogen, thanks for the input...while my mind is open to the possibility of other horses, I really want to stick with mine right now. I know for a fact that I'm making progress and I'm making sure he is happy and healthy while I'm going through this.

Wow! This is a powerful suggestion for me. I have been dreading the spooks, not looking forward to them. I'm going to look for the tape and/or book on this. Thanks for the boost Melissa and also thanks again to Dr. A!

Posted on Wednesday, Jun 26, 2002 - 10:05 pm:

Hi ,
I just wanted to say the the posts on positive thinking are great. Thats exactly what I do though I didn't say it as I did not realize thats what I do, when I posted on going slow. I always picture myself in my mind of having a perfect ride , calm relaxed etc before I ride . When I do ride I think of the problem such as spooking as a chalenge fun something we can get through together. My first pony as a little kid terrified me. She dumped me all the time. I was learning. I was forced to get back on her when I came off.even though I thought I hated her.She tought me a love I had never known. by not giving up I developed a great seat and a friendship and love that I will cherrish for as long as I live. When she died many years later from heart problems I cried, Part of me died. but I also thanked her for giving me the best childhood possible. I have had many horses since. But I can tell you only you know if you bond with your horse. Not a trainer or anyone else. (unless the horse is dangerous).All my horses started out problem horses and ended up to be horses everyone wanted. I for one am glad you are sticking with your horse. You wont regret it. If you were someone who got so scared and did not even go and see their horse it would be different. Yes there are people like that who should sell the horse and look for another. I hope all the wonderful advice on mind thinking helps you. Katrina

Posted on Thursday, Jun 27, 2002 - 10:26 am:

Thanks Katrina, I told my trainer about this board and what has been said, she also looks forward to the spooks and thinks they are fun...so I'm definately trying the positive thinking aspect.

He's going to a show on July 6 so his trainer is riding him to prepare him...He had a definate bug up his butt with her last night (decided not to give to the bit with his head held high!!), but afterward I was the one to calm him down and get him to relax again!! I took the initiative and took him from her...she just stood back and smiled...Today I'm wondering if she did that on purpose to show me I really do have it and can do it!!(;)

Posted on Thursday, Jun 27, 2002 - 6:25 pm:

Another two cents worth:

One of my horses occasionally enjoys a spook with a bolt thrown in for good measure on special occasions. When this happens, I always call out (something like woo-hoo!). It started by accident, but I've found that just the act of making that sound is enough to keep me from locking up and freezing.

Another response I've always admired is when someone can laugh through it.

Posted on Thursday, Jun 27, 2002 - 6:39 pm:

Good point Sandra. You reminded me that when I first got him, if he looked startled or worried about something, I'd say "BOO!" It always knocked it out of him (or me)!

Thank you!

Posted on Friday, Jun 28, 2002 - 7:53 am:

Hi all,

As I mentioned above my guy was bolting on me this winter and I was getting a bit timid about my rides as i didn't know how to stop this behavior but I went straight to HA and read everything on bolting i could find-and then used the techniques i discovered here and that is when my fear left as I was armed with a solution and plan of attack and even better the next bolt was along side that road with the motorcycle and the techniques work to stop him! so I knew next time what to do before he started ie little bending in either direction to distract him.

A plan of attack is definitely empowering whether it is a dreaded spook or the next time your 3 year old has a tantrum in the grocery store ( this too can instill fear and dread! :) ) Kim

Posted on Monday, Jul 1, 2002 - 6:38 pm:

This is great...I'm able to now help some others I know that are having similar issues.

Thanks to everyone!!!

Posted on Wednesday, Jul 24, 2002 - 10:49 am:

FYI...

For me, positive thinking about the spooks and laughing worked wonders!!!!!

Thanks again.
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