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  Discussion on Bit-less bridle claims...
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Member:
Roberts

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 26, 2003 - 11:58 am:

I, too, would like to hear Dr. O's comments, but other's experiences with the bridle are more useful, since it seems more of a tack issue than health issue for those who's horses don't have mouth problems. I would especially like to hear if anyone has used a running martingale with the Dr. Cook's bridle. He says that the bridle will work with it, but when I tried it, there seemed to be something not quite right. . . Anyone??
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 11:06 am:

Hi,
I know this is an old post, but I wanted to say that my first day using this bridle was wonderful. I own a arab who has been lightly ridden for about a year in a snaffle. He was doing wonderful, a little spooky, but all in all great. I bought the bridle to try for trail riding as he is spooky and I dont want to jolt his mouth with a big spook. Anyway I put it on him and rode. He was so relaxed. His ears pricked forward and was so responsive and the smallest aide, you would think he had been under saddle many years. He was more pleasure to ride than many well trained horses I have ridden. I now have a super happy horse. He LOVES it. Just wanted to give my 2 cents worth.
Katrina
Member:
Tagloili

Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 6:43 pm:

I was skeptical about the bitless bridle, but after buying one from Dr. Cook and using it, I am no longer a skeptic.
Member:
Scline

Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 7:10 pm:

What is the difference between a bitless bridle and a hackamore?
Member:
Willie

Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 7:43 pm:

Hi,
I purchased Dr. Cook's bitless bridle for our off-the-track-TB who twists his jaw and grinds his teeth, and although skeptical at first, I'm now convinced that this bridle is very effective. I wasn't sure it would provide the "brakes" that I'd need, but our sensitive gelding turned out to be much more stoppable in this than in his regular french-link snaffle, which he spent too much time trying to evade. I'm still not sure you can keep a horse as straight and forward and willing to accept contact and support from the rider's hands in a bitless bridle as in a nice mild snaffle, but the bitless bridle has really helped this horse learn to trust and listen to his rider and relax. (This horse grinds his teeth with excitement while being led to the field in a halter.) So we switch back and forth -- when he's really tense in the snaffle, we go trail-riding in the bitless bridle. Control is NOT an issue. So I'd say yes, there are real merits here, especially for a horse with mouth issues.

As to the larger question of whether any horse should be bitted at all, I think the jury's still out. Five thousand years of domestication have probably caused our horses to adapt to the idea of the bit as a non-food item, just as they've learned to carry a rider without assuming that it's a mountain lion -- so I'm not sure that that portion of Dr. Cook's theory carries full weight, but I will agree that a heavy handed rider can probably do less damage to a sensitive horse with a bitless bridle than with a bit.

So we go both ways, as seems appropriate. I will keep the bitless bridle in my tack trunk for my ex-racehorses, and probably start youngsters off with it as well.

Sarah
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 9:17 pm:

Susan, there is as big difference between a hackamore and this bridle. This bridle pushs the horses head rather than pulls. Horses accept this better. The hackamore can be harsh in the wrong hands. this bridle can be ridden with the same aides as a bit and is very gentle. I still love a snaffle but my young horse seems to love this bridle. who am I to argue with him. I will still use a snaffle, but for trails I think this bridle is wonderful, especially for sensitive young ones.
Member:
Fpony

Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 6:29 am:

My 7 y/o son has started riding my Pony with the bitless briddle and Foxy is wonderful. He use to pull the reins out of young folks hands. Not anymore! He really loves this bridle. As to connection, Foxy is much more relaxed and thus comes thur his back into the bridle very nicely where as before he would get very nervous and stiff. Kim
Member:
Conniep

Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 4:54 pm:

What did Dr. O think of this bit?? This may cure my mare's head shaking. She does not like taking the bit, but will.
Connie
Moderator:
DrO

Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 6:14 am:

Hello Connie,
We have never used one so I really do not have a opinion based on experience. Taking this from a post of mine from another discussion 2 years ago it still seems to apply:

"Dr Cook's thoughts are interesting and I can't say that they are not true but I think they are the results of "thought experiments" and not actual physiological measurements. At least I have not seen any such work. I would love to have all folks out there with Soft Palate Displacement try a bitless bridle to see if the problem stops and report back. If bitless bridles would allow horses to go better, you would think the flat racing industry would catch on to this before too long."

We have begun to use hackamores on several of our paso's this pass year and they are quite responsive to them.
DrO
Member:
Erika

Posted on Sunday, Jan 2, 2005 - 8:57 am:

Hi all,
I know, another old post...but I thought I'd share my experiment with the bitless bridle.
After reading how so many people liked it, I bought one on ebay to use on my fifteen year old Saddlebred mare.
She is a lovely, athletic and sensitive horse. Maybe too sensitive. I have changed bits occasionally over the last eleven years of riding her because she never seems comfortable with any mouth pressure, yet she is so forward that I have to cue her sometimes :-)!
Her teeth are checked regularly and floated when needed. I used to feel bad enough about her reaction to the bit that I had even avoided riding her much.
Now to the point!!: I bought a Cooper's Bitless and from the first ride out, I swear I had a different horse! She was calm and very accepting of rein pressure. Weirdly, she was also much less spooky on the trail.
In short, she and I love this bridle. I urge anyone with any bit issues to TRY it. I picked one up on Ebay. (They show up there frequently, but they go for almost as much as the new ones, so maybe the "real website" is a better choice. They offer a nice guarantee.)
I can now ride my sweet mare without the guilt I experienced with the bit.
Erika
Member:
Zane

Posted on Sunday, Jan 2, 2005 - 7:55 pm:

No bit problems,someone gave us one to try and our quarter horse seemed to like it and go pretty much the same as in a bit. It seems that this is not a good idea for a horse with stopping issues. Our horse seemed more comfotable and on day long trail rides it is nice to stop and let him graze which is easier with no bit.
New Member:
Bbalch

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 2:38 pm:

I have a 4-year old gelding Tennessee Walker and I use a Tennessee Walking bit with a long shank. My horse does great on trail rides except that he grabs the shank and/or reins and put them in his mouth. I'm not sure what he is doing--whether it's a training issue or whether it's a bit issue. I was thinking maybe I need to get another type of bit or maybe even a bitless bridle. I am unfamiliar with the "workings" of a bitless bridle. The experiences above sound promising, however, I have a couple of questions that maybe someone can assist me with. My questions are: (1) has anyone experienced the problem I'm having as referenced above; and (2) if so and you purchased a bitless bridle, did it help? I appreciate your input.
Member:
Redmare

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 2:50 pm:

Hi Elizabeth-

For trail riding I prefer a snaffle. It's comfortable for the horse, but there for me if I need to do an emergency turn. I find that curb bits are more suitable for finesse work in the arena, and don't like them on the trail because you don't have the lateral control. Your horse might just be mouthy and entertaining himself with the reins and shanks. Try a snaffle (get some assistance, there are a zillon different kinds). I prefer the 3-part mouth piece as it does not have the nutcracker effect of a 2-part.
Member:
Bbalch

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 3:09 pm:

Redmare: Thanks for your input. I've thought about a snaffle bit, but because my other Walker has been on a Tennessee Walking bit and has done extremely well, I've continued with it. I'm somewhat familiar with the 2-part snaffle, but not the 3-part. What's the difference?
Member:
Redmare

Posted on Monday, Jan 17, 2005 - 10:10 pm:

Hi Elizabeth-

Here is a link to an article and photo of a 3-part snaffle. https://equisearch.com/tack/bitgallery/frenchlink/
Member:
Goolsby

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2005 - 2:14 pm:

Redmare
I used a snaffle for the first riding season with my first horse (an appy). I changed to a curb bit because I felt I didnt have enough control on this green horse and it was suggested to me to change bits. I later got a saddle mare and changed to a walking horse bit for both horses (because everyone else used one). It has worked well for me and the horses for the past 9 years. I trail ride, mostly hilly wooded area but usually have to get on gravel and paved roads also. I was just a little surprised by your post and wondering if I am missing something by not using a snaffle or is it just personal preference?
Colleen
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Tuesday, Jan 18, 2005 - 9:06 pm:

Hi elizabeth,
I use and know at least 15 people who use and love the bitless bridle. I find it has as much control as any bit I have used. But the horse should know what is asked of them. I prefer to make sure the horse is wonderful in a snaffle before moving on to any thing else. I dont think a curb is a good first bit for any horse. You cant teach them lateral flexion etc. Horses start out in a snaffle, 3 joints or 2 for a reason. When the horse knows how to accept the bit gives to it and responds beautifuly only them should you go to a curb. The curb is for extra finesse for already trained horses. My horse always hated a regular snaffle but goes great in a bit similar to the KK 3 part snaffle. He knows what is asked of him so responds beautifully.I can ride in a halter when trail riding on my own. I do use the Mikmar bit in Hunter paces, because of his excitment level causes him to get way excited. I use stronger bits (Mikmar) in competion only . He knows what is asked of him and the stronger bit (curb) reinforses what he already knows). I think a strong bit, curb confuses the horse with pain if they dont understand how to go in a snaffle first.
Colleen if it has worked for 9 years and you are happy dont change a thing.
New Member:
Waynorth

Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 9:38 pm:

I have been riding in an English Hackamore (leather padded noseband, short shanks) on the trails, but I am looking for something that I can get more lateral control. My horse goes nicely in a snaffle, but since I ride in the winter down to below zero temps (I live in Interior Alaska), I do not want a bit in his mouth. I do need some brakes, as we have had unexpected encounters with dog mushers or snowmobiles, and his first reaction is usually to beat a hasty retreat! I am generally a loose-rein rider--especially when both hands are shoved into my parka to warm up and the horse is on auto-pilot--and only pick up the reins as needed. No hanging onto the mouth for balance. Would the bitless bridle work well in these circumstances?
Member:
Redmare

Posted on Thursday, Feb 10, 2005 - 9:56 pm:

Colleen-

Sorry, I'm just now reading your post. I think it is a matter of personal preference, both for the human and the horse. I have my horses fitted for both snaffles and curbs, depending on what I'm doing. Since trail riding doesn't require any fancy moves, I like to use something as basic as possible. I'd like even better to ride in a halter, but Fjords have necks bigger than my whole body and in a pinch I'd have zero control. I say stick with what works if your horses like the bits you use.

Jessica-

You might try the western-type sidepull, or a rope halter sidepull. The shanks give leverage but take away lateral control.
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Friday, Feb 18, 2005 - 11:24 am:

Jessica,
I love the bitless and have excellent stopping control wether on a loose rein or with direct contact.
Member:
Gingin

Posted on Wednesday, Feb 23, 2005 - 9:01 pm:

I switched my mare from a bit to "The bitless bridle (Cook)" about 2 years ago and will definitely not go back...she loves it, no stopping issues whatsoever, she's gaited and moves out in the bitless just as well as she did in a shanked snaffle, we just started lateral work and sidepassing..no problem, we jump, go on trails, etc....friends of mine have recently tried her bitless bridle on their horses and they are now going shopping to buy their own (these are die-hard UK english riders with probably the largest bit "collection" I have ever seen :-)).
I have found that my mare actually stopps better in the bitless and that communicating with her is much more subtle than it ever was when she had a bit. There is absolutely no resistance and she pays much better attention to me...I would certainly recommend to try either a bitless (NOT a rope halter with mecate reins tied below the chin, though...much more severe and more confusing with the signals) or a nice soft sidepull bridle (not the ones with the rock hard lariat nosebands...)...you may be surprised how much your horse will like being ridden this way.....
As to being able to turn your horse quickly...well, we also went team penning in the bitless and play games and she whipps around with the lightest touch!!! (and besides...she's perfect anyway...but I guess you already figured that )
Member:
Rhondal

Posted on Wednesday, Mar 8, 2006 - 8:18 pm:

I think that would be my biggest concern is the stopping but from reading some of your feedback it doesn't seem to be a big problem. Maybe I will try that instead of the hackamore.
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Thursday, Mar 9, 2006 - 11:11 am:

Good Morning all.
To play Devil's Advocate....
I Just spent the weekend in clinics with a Grand Prix dressage rider (USDF Gold medalist and Olympic Festival Gold Medalist) so I posed the question about bitless bridles, and to my surprise she said while the bitless bridle can work for some horses, they can cause injury if not used properly and she added that there is research that because there is no jaw flexion created with the bit, which aids in developing a supple horse, they can actually develop problems with the neck and back.
As for severity of bits, even a mild bit can be harsh in the wrong hands and likewise what seems to be harsh can be mild in experienced hands.
I think the bitless bridle, as some of you have addressed, can be equally dangerous and painful on the jaw and the poll. In fact I have seen heads toss more in these bridles than with bits with inexperienced hands.
My advice is to make sure the horse has had a vet and dental exam and get the proper training in whatever tack you use in addition to training your horse.

Good Luck Rhonda.
Member:
9193

Posted on Thursday, Mar 9, 2006 - 12:19 pm:

I purchased a bitless bridle over a year ago when my horse broke a tooth and couldn't have a bit in his mouth. I was skeptical at first, especially when it came to the "whoa" factor. I was really impressed with the control and response he showed during the dressage lessons and trail riding that we did during his tooth convalesence.

Shortly after his tooth healed, he injured his leg and is now in the 11th month of rehab. The bitless bridle has been a godsend thru all these months of handwalking.. I use the bitless bridle instead of a halter when handwalking. I have much better control of his head in the bitless bridle than in a halter and in a rehab horse, keeping the silliness to a minimum is priority one! He seems to know that he can't power thru the bitless bridle like he can the halter.

Thank you Katrina for your recommendation of the bitless bridle!!

Smiles,
Debra
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Thursday, Mar 9, 2006 - 6:41 pm:

You are welcome.:-)
Katrina
Member:
Nonie

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 6:52 pm:

Corinne, I would love to see the research your clinician referred to. I ride my mare almost exclusively in the bitless bridle, and my dressage trainer, who trained at the SRS, insists that I use it, and uses it to train all his horses from babies to Grand Prix. My mare chews and foams at the mouth nicely even though she does not have a bit when we work. Is it Dr. Cooke's bridle in particular she referred to, or some of the other "bitless" bridles out there? Dr. Cooke's design is unique and I have never heard anything about it being destructive to the horse in any way--he is a learned man and I am sure he would be interested in any reports that it was.

Thanks.

Zoe
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 7:59 pm:

Zoe,

I will try to get in touch with the clinician to see what type of research she was referring to.....she travels the country for most of the year and with show season upon us it might be six months before I speak to her again.

I am not sure if she was referring to published studies or referring to research done by other trainers of her caliber.

She did not speak of a type of bitless bridle in particular and never ever disparages other trainers or methods. It was a general question about bitless tack on my part because i had heard from other accomplished riders that they can be harmful if not used correctly as well.

If I can reach her I will definately pose the question.

And good on you for being able to achieve jaw flexion without a bit. You are probably very talented and it shows your horse is relaxed and supple.

Corinne

PS. Is the bitless bridle a patented idea by Dr. Cooke only? Or are there other companies who make them? The only reason I ask is that I have never heard of him and have seen other clinicians and tack dealers selling these types of bridles at horsefests. (They could have been his...but not sure)
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 8:04 pm:

I forgot to ask Zoe as you peaked my interest...does your trainer, who uses the bitless bridle to train to Grand Prix also train with bits? To my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong) you have to show with a bit and they use double bridles from 3rd level on...how does he get the horse to accept the bit when doing dressage tests in the show ring?
Member:
Nonie

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 8:54 pm:

Hi Corinne--

Thanks for your quick replies. Yes, my trainer most definitely trains in bits as well--right now he is back at his ranch in Venezuela for the winter, schooling the Venezuelan Olympic team. He loved the bitless because of the relaxation it induced in all the horses he tried it on-I had always used a bit in my lessons with him until one day I asked him to give me a jumping lesson and put on my bitless and he was absolutely taken with it. He ordered two right away and he uses them in his work exclusively with the very young horses, and intermittently with the ones who are showing. No, it is not legal for dressage, but you are permitted to show jumping in it. So his higher level horses are very used to the bit, but he finds when he uses the bitless they relax in the back and neck more easily, and come through more consistently. He finds it a great training tool and he was all set to lobby the USDF to try to change the rules (he has been a major figure in the dressage world for coming 50 years) but unfortunately he had congestive heart failure and required surgery last summer, so it kind of derailed his plans. He is doing much better now and I am looking forwad to his return to the States this summer.

There are a LOT of "bitless" bridles out there, but like I said, Dr. Cooke's is a unique design. If you go to his website you can get a detailed description of how it functions and how very different it is from most others. Other vendors/clinicians would not be selling HIS bridle, as I believe he does hold a patent on it. I would not use any of the other bitless bridles on the market, as I believe they are mostly glorified hackamores, sidepulls, and bosals.

The thing I love about Dr. Cooke's bridle is that you DON'T have to be careful to use it "correctly." It is actually an ideal bridle for beginner riders who are not tactful with their hands and tend to lean on the bridle for support, as it distributes its pressure over a very wide area, essentially putting the horse in a "benevolent headlock." I know I can control my mare much more effectively in it, even at a dead-out gallop, because we do not get into a fight when I pull back--all the pressure is not concentrated into a small portion of her mouth and bars. She is very sensitive, very opinionated, and NOT an animal you want to have a disagreement with at 30mph. LOL.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions. Your trainer sounds like a good egg.

Zoe
Member:
Corinne

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 - 10:27 pm:

Zoe,

Very informative! Thanks!

First of all I offer a prayer for your trainer who has CHF. May he return to good health.

Second, It does make sense that those who are trained and responsive in the full bridles (your trainer’s upper level horses) would be equally responsive in the other forms of tack that are generally considered less severe because they were properly trained.

From my first dressage lesson I was taught If you can't illicit a response from a horse with a simple bit, the solution is not to try to get the response with a more severe one...because at that point it's about the rider not efficiently and appropriately communicating to the horse....and if they can't communicate, than the rider needs to go back to training to learn to be more effective in their aides. So those who can work with bitless bridles effectively, like you are while being able to keep the horse on the aides and supple without a bit, are pretty accomplished riders who are able to ask with all their other aides and not just their hand aides.

It has always bothered me that some riders use severe forms of bits as a band aid to try to get responses from the horse they are not able to get without. And in the end it will come back to haunt them.

In the lessons given in full bridles last week I was able to hear that point often touched upon by our grand prix gal. She is a proponent of using your bridles appropriately no matter what one you choose...and for those who use full bridles for instance, instead of taking the full bridle away from third level because riders are relying too much on the action and there is way too much holding, she thinks they should be taught how to use it properly....and as I am sure you agree and I bet even Dr. Cooke's system can be harmful if it is not used as he intends it!

Anyway, as for our clinician being a good egg....definitely. She was the first rider in North America to show Arabians, Appaloosa's, Paints...the list goes on...and she also has trained lots of draughts to Grand Prix...so she is all about working with the horse you have and not breed stereotyping...as she has proved on her untraditional dressage mounts.

Anyway, I will check out Dr Cooke's site as it sounds very interesting.

Good luck with your horses and may you continue to have many safe gallops with your, as many are, opinionated mare, she sounds like fun and your right...I wouldn't want to argue with a 1200 lb female going 30 miles an hour!

Take care,
Corinne
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 6:18 pm:

Zoe - totally off topic, I know, but your profile has piqued my curiosity! What exactly is a paperhanger? I seem to recall from way back in my childhood that this is somebody who hangs wallpaper but I'm likely WAY off track!

Sue
Member:
Nonie

Posted on Monday, Mar 27, 2006 - 6:35 pm:

No, Sue, you are absolutely ON track, that is exactly what I do. I hang wallpaper, or wallcoverings as they are currently referred to as by the decorator set. I hang just about anything on just about any surface and have been doing so for nigh on twenty years.

It pays for the horses.

Zoe
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 28, 2006 - 2:29 am:

We have a saying in Vermont . . . when someone is stretched beyond capacity with life's activities . . . "She's(He's) busier than a one-armed paper hanger," and if you have ever tried to steam off old paper and hang new, you know how impossible it is to do with one arm. Great livelihood, Zoe. Anything we can do that "pays for the horses" is worth considering.
Member:
Warwick

Posted on Tuesday, Mar 28, 2006 - 11:16 am:

Thanks for setting me straight, Zoe! I think it's just fascinating to see the range of occupations of the folks on the HA. We certainly are a diverse bunch.
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