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  Discussion on The Cowboy Way? Barbaric Riding in 2006?
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Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 1:00 pm:

We just got home from spending 4 days in and around Oklahoma City. I was doing a lot of "wa hooing" seeing all the horses, cattle, cowboys and miles of fences. (not sure why the fences and fancy gates caught my eye)

Naturally, I couldn't wait to see some cowboy riding; after all, we were in COWBOY COUNTRY.

I sat through an afternoon of "sorting" a cowboy game played with 2 riders and 12 cattle. 10 of the cattle have numbers on them, and the object is to drive the cattle, one by one, from one pen into another, in order, starting with whatever number is called out. It is timed, and gets pretty crazy. But also looked like it would be a blast to do!

Unfortunately, I didn't enjoy it very much. WHY? Well, silly me, I thought the "bit and spur rider" was a barbaric way of horse handling that went out at least in the early 1900s.

To warm up, most of the cowboys/girls, took poor unsuspecting horse and just ran him up and down the arena. (Minutes earlier he was dozing on 3 feet, dreaming of green pastures.) No fancy neck reining, just yank around to turn. Spur around to turn faster. Stopping was definitely not BEHIND THE VERTICAL head set. Nope, more like head up in the air as high as possible to escape the bit.

I was just sick as some of these poor animals didn't have a clue as to what was expected of them. They surely didn't have any "natural horsemanship" training. Not sure if they had any training in some cases. I wanted to take so many of them home to rescue! Most looked to be well bred Quarter Horses and most likely cost a pretty penny too.

It wasn't all riders who treated their horses this way, but waaay too many for my tastes. It did seem the women treated their horses a little better, but maybe it was because I was watching them more than the so called cowboys?

Guess it was a good thing I left my sheltered world and did get to see another part of the horse world even if I don't agree with how it's done when horses are simply "tools".
Member:
Dres

Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 1:27 pm:

Angie, I have watched amazed as well.. and wonder how do they keep the horses sound?? At some of the local high school rodeo events.. some of these horses stay tied to the trailer from Friday afternoon thru Sunday late evening.. They are saddled up rode hard and tied right back up.. In the summer its blazing hot, in the fall its raining.. ?? Its amazing to me..

On the first day God created horses, on the second day he painted them with spots..
Member:
Mcbizz

Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 1:51 pm:

Wow, can I relate to what you're saying! I live in Reno, where there are many many Cowboys and related events, the biggest being the Reno Rodeo.
And it is a lifestyle and an image not always pleasant to see. The cattle at these events have it pretty rough too...
Unfortunately, these folks who treat their horses this way think that is the ONLY way. Soft hands?
Suppling? Sissy stuff! We have a cowboy neighbor who rides his mare, perhaps 3 times a year and we can watch from our property...the head in the air, tight circles, the reins always tight.
But we have many nice horse people here too, I must add.}
Member:
Alden

Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 3:59 pm:

It's unfortunate but I find this kind of treatment common at the lower level competitive events, both Western and English. This is the biggest reason I don't compete my horses, with the exception of NATRC events. I've noticed that the horses and riders at the national levels are softer and more responsive, but not at the local and regional events. I don't know why.

Sorting is a lot of fun, but your horse has to be trained to do it. What I see is unconcerned people that grab their pasture ornament and run down to the local arena to impress their buddies. By unconcerned I mean unconcerned about the welfare of they horse.

Also most those riders don't know how to neck rein a horse. They think that mopping the reins and dragging the horse's head around is neck reining. I rode a couple mules at a local mule event here in Colorado this year that supposedly were trained to neck rein. What a joke, the mule had no idea what to do. I watch the “trainers” ride those same mules and they neck reined with the inside rein tight, that's called direct reining. :-(

I ride my horses and hope these kind of people will see something they like and ask questions (it has happened but not very much), otherwise there's no helping them or their horses.

Good day,
Alden
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 5:12 pm:

Angie and all, they don't stay sound ! Many are gone LONG before their time !!My farrier and I talked about that last time he was here, he is and has been very involved with rodeo and echoed your concerns, horses used too hard with little care or training and most are started to young but one just gets rid of the broken one and gets a new "toy" with little regard if any for what happens to the last horse of the moment... Cindy
Member:
Mrose

Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 5:14 pm:

The "rough and rowdy" riding that you see so much in the west is slowly changing. Most, if not all, of the REAL cowboys I know are very good at gentling their horses and training them.(a "real" cowboy actually works cattle & horses on a daily basis, grew up with the traditions, etc.) The methods of people like John Lyons, etc. are catching on and a lot of people are realizing that although it takes a little longer to properly train a horse, you have a much better horse in the end. Also, a lot of real cowboys do have very good reining horses that have been trained in the old vaquaro tradition.

The people I see that are most abusive to their horses are the "weekend and wannabe cowboys." They don't ride all year, then throw the horse in the trailer and take it hunting in the mountains for a week in the fall. Or, they decide to compete in the annual local rodeo or team penning event without building up to it, and without proper training for rider or horse. There is a big lack of knowledge with some of these people; they aren't purposefully abusive, they just don't know anything different. There are those that think of their horse as a four legged ATV though, too. They are the worst.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Nov 11, 2006 - 6:51 pm:

It must indeed be lack of knowledge combined with the mentality that the horse is a four legged ATV as Sara says.

The younger cowboy I was introduced to took us to the place his horse was boarded. (there are family ties here, so I can't/couldn't say much) He saddled the horse, and did the race around, yank around, spur around. Followed by some whipping with the end of the reins because the poor animal wouldn't stand still then to have it's feet picked up, so he had to do some more "training" cough, gag, puke.

As soon as he was done, the horse was unsaddled, and simply stuck back in the stall!! I didn't stick around to see if the horse was put on the walker, which is where most of the rest of the horses were. I am not sure how long they were on there, or if they were to be removed. It was getting about as dark as it was going to get when I left.

I do know grain was being given, and there were blankets, so I hope the nice little gelding was blanketed and NOT fed. His half sister was in the next stall, sweet little 2 year old, terrified when I reached towards her. I had damp eyes when we left, and had to bite my tongue not to attack the young man verbally.

These were both the Lena(?) line, nice looking horses. Or is that Doc's Little Lena? I've heard of it, not sure of what exactly I was told the name was.

And sad to say, it wasn't just the younger crowd. There was an older gentleman, looked like mid 60's, on a horse he was riding tight fisted, shanked bit, running martingale. That horse wanted real bad to go over back wards and dump and damage his rider! I was secretly hoping the horse "won" that game!!

In this case, these were some well to do folks who get together on the weekends and play on their horses. I guess the pay so much for each sorting they do, then the best time takes the pot. Followed by food and beer. Some beer was flowing while the riding was going on, so that added to the horses abuse perhaps?

As I said, it wasn't all of them. But it was enough to ruin my day at the horse event.

Oh, the horse above? He had had some "professional training already", and these things I witnessed were just warm ups/tune ups.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 9:12 am:

Angie ..
You are making one "big" mistake.These jerks are not cowboys. I too have seen and participated in these events, and they are a lot of fun. The real "cow horses" enjoy this as much as the rider. Unfortunately, as with any discipline, there are far too many "wann a be's"
Alden described it pretty good. If you ever watch a true cowboy work, they are rarely in the horses mouth. First, the horse knows what to do, second the cowboy knows and trusts his horse and stays out of his way.
Now, back to these weekend idiots. They usually have the money to buy the best horse, can quote a 5 generation pedigree, and when they lose, it is always the horse's fault. They should be yanked off their horse, slapped up the side of the head, spurred in the ribs and tied to a trailer. They can be called a lot of things, but please ..... not cowboys.
DT
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 12:26 pm:

Thank You Dennis, I stand "corrected", And I owe the true cowboys like yourself an apology, and Alden also, for lumping these ATV cowboys in with you all.

Very well said!!

I actually was offered a chance to ride in the event, on the poor horse with the so called training. My thoughts were, "hmmmm....I'll need about 30 DAYS to get the horse over it's fears of pain, then probably another 30 days to re train the horse to be soft and responsive"...didn't think that was going to work with me. Especially since then if would most likely be thought that I was the one who wasn't a real rider.

I was tempted to put the bit in the mouth of a few of these guys, and have them place it in the spot where wisdom teeth used to be...thus on the bars of their mouth. And give some yanks on the reins!
Member:
Juliem

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 1:58 pm:

Dennis is right on, as usual. He did forget one thing in what should be done to the wannabes--they need to have their head tied short and tight to their belt, as that seems to be a tried and true training method for the "trainers" of these poor horses.
I have to say though, not everyone in the West is ignorant of feel, timing and finesse. We have trainers and clinicians and riders who understand how a horse thinks and learns. Perhaps a large population exists who think that living in the West automatically makes them a "cowboy." We've even come to use that term as a derogotary. As in, "He just cowboyed that horse, he didn't train him." }
Member:
Boomer

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 2:43 pm:

I think that there are a lot of people, even those living in the "East" that are ignorant. People are the same all over. Some are more educated in horsmanship than others. The rodeo's attract egomaniacs and the type that "know horses"..ie; old school cowboy. I'd like to believe that most western type riders aren't like that. I've seen some real "winners" in the english arena as well..bottom line is that change takes time and as long as we have decent people like John Lyons touring and educating it hopefully will happen. I just wish that they would visit some of those smaller towns where they are really needed. Some people can't even afford the tickets, I saw Parelli this past May in Yakima, WA and I think it was a little over $100 for my husband and myself. Very commercialized as well. *sigh*..
Member:
Lynnea

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 4:02 pm:

This type of insensitivity in so called "training of horses"is not confined to the quarter horse either....I have been involved with different breeds and cruel and uncaring trainers and riders are in every aspect. I will never forget , years ago, asking a successful (matter of opinion) trainer what would she do for my horse who could never keep his mouth quiet. This was my precious Morgan that just loved to chew a snaffle every which way and I eventually wanted to show him....and a busy mouth didn't do. She told me she would be happy to work on him and when she was finished he would never move his mouth again. When I said would you please just tell me what to do ( I was willing to pay for her advice)..because I didn't want to part with my horse.....she proceeded to explain how she uses barbed wire wrapped around a spade bit and leaves the horse tied with draw reins all day in a tiny corral..unable to eat or drink. When his mouth is so sore from being cut by the barbs , he will learn not to move his mouth around with a bit in it. I was so horrified at this ,, I never spoke to her again and told everyone that ever wanted to use her as a trainer , my experience. I am sure she could have sued me for slander....but protecting the horses was my main concern. That trainer did consider herself a "cowgirl"
I have seen too many that fancy themselves mastering the horse by treating them as an object to be dominated.
It is always the horse that pays the price. Horses being used by out of control riders, become very insecure and frightened and react in many different ways, but when they rebel and retaliate...they are labeled bad or dangerous and untrustworthy and wind up in bad situations that threaten their lives. Horses pay a high price for this behavior of some human beings .
I also agree a true "cowboy", and I have seen a few.....deeply respect the value of willing and trusting horse and instinctively know how to gain trust and friendship through kindness and positive teaching. All of us who are with horses are teachers, everything we do with them is teaching something.
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 5:44 pm:

My husbands grandfather was one of those old cowboy trainers that worked with the horses not against; as he said if you don't take better care of the horse than yourself you may find yourself a long ,long way from home and no ride in sight! Lynne went thru much the same experience as you years back very ugly!! I keep hoping these people are the exceptions.When we first got our mustang I was with Richard Shrake and asked him what to do with a mustang he said one word ...PATIENCE lots and lots of it!! Instant cowboys have none. Cindy
Member:
Lynnea

Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 6:31 pm:

Absolutely, patience, Cindy...there are no shortcuts to properly teaching a horse what you are asking for. My daughter and I started working with our own horses many years ago...really knowing nothing about training a horse. But, our love for them and our desire to be companions with them in whatever we did made our horses amazingly great to ride. They trusted us so completely. I would never want a horse or any animal to do what I asked out of fear. And that is what you see in those horses who are ridden as described above. I truly believe some people love the power of mastering a horse out of fear. I often wonder how these same people treat their kids.
About 25 years ago we bought a 5 year old Morgan stallion that was the most powerful and energetic bundle I had ever seen. The "trainer" that had him would take him out of his stall with a multitude of chains wrapped around his head , which caused him to walk on his hind legs and act like a mean uncontrolled horse. That impression was for him to show off to a gasping audience how great a handler he was of this unmanageable stallion. No one realized that he was in a stall 23 out of 24 hours a day, and the one hour out he was ridden and driven into the ground. I witnessed this display before we purchased him and it had my family a bit apprehensive. When I said just look into his eyes and see the kindness and you will know these actions are all man made.
We bought him. And I am happy to say , I was right.I found someone else to handle him and he was the most intelligent , sweetnatured creature in the world. He could have been so misunderstood, just because of the trainers handling, and wound up in the wrong hands. Which would have been terribly sad. He lived his life out with me and I lost him at age 29.
Member:
Mzollars

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 8:01 am:

Dennis is absolutely correct! I participate in a sorting event two weekends a month. The other two weekends are normally spent keeping my horse in shape. There are quite a few of the "weekend warriors" who have all the money in the world to spend on horses, and they have no idea how to ride. The horses who are trained to do these events, as Dennis said, love it. My mare gets so excited at the thought of being in that herd it's almost comical. I just show her the number and she does the rest. It's all about letting the horse sit down and work. They know what to do. And the ones that aren't trained for it, well it always seems they are the unlucky souls that get pulled out of the pasture twice a year and are expected to do something totally out of their ability. Fortunately, we don't have many of those types where we ride. Most of the people are kind to their horses and they are there at every event with horses who are in excellent shape and very well cared for. The cattle in these instances are also well cared for. They aren't run to death and standing in the heat with no water all day. We are fortunate!!
Member:
Christel

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 8:48 am:

Great topic Angie.
You all know ignorance is bliss, those drug store cowboys are having a blast even tho there horses are not having much fun. I sure wouldn't hold my breath hoping they will ask for advice.
Yesterday afternoon I tuned into the AQHA World Show which is now going on in OKC. The Jr. Working Cowhorse class was being shown on the internet- of course being the World Show the big boys were showing their horses. I highly recommend you all watching this class when it goes to the finals- some flat out good horsemanship was going on, a little fast and furious at times but oh so exciting.
The finals to the JR Working Cowhorse class is Sat. and the finals to Sr. Working cowhorse is being held on Thurs, of this week. There will be live video fed of the classes on the internet, for some great entertainment you should make a point to watch. Go to AQHA.com then click on the World Show banner.
Enjoy,
Chris
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 9:08 am:

Well, I second the thought that there are idiots in every discipline. It is hard to see and reconcile when you know better. These people don't see horses as beings with feelings.

We have a huge Quarter Horse farm just up the road. A few months ago when driving by, I saw a horse with his head tied to the side of the saddle. Ugh!
Member:
Boomer

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 12:52 pm:

Oh my god Linda, really? That's horrible and as far as that barb wire trick that is just abuse! I agree whole heartedly agree with patience, it's the only way. Thanks for the site Chris, I will definitely watch..
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 1:24 pm:

Wonder what the 'DRUGSTORE COWBOYS " THINK OF Stacy Westfall??? winning Road to the Horse and demo riding with no bridle and now she and her mare demo without even a saddle!!Then there was Rugged Lark and Lynn who I saw and still get goosebumps from: these poor souls don't have a clue but lord help their horses they never will.Lynne thank goodness you took the chance and brought your stallion home. Linda, I once saw a horse tied to a barn with his head VERY elevated came back by 3 hrs later and he was still there so stopped to tell owner thinking kids had just messed up but NO they were doing that so when he showed his head would hang way down ??? Lady said lots of folks practiced this before a show ??? Please tell me she was wrong??He was to stay tied most of the night!After explaining what I thought of her I tried police humane soc. but there was no help from anyone! Where does common sense and compassion go .... Cindy
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 2:24 pm:

I'm not targeting any particular post here, but rather just making a general comment, so please, I hope no one is offended, but I just don't like the term 'the cowboy way'. It's the wanna-be's that give the REAL cowboys a bad name. There are those of us that have been raised around horses, and REAL cowboys, we love our horses, and our horses love their jobs, whether it's team penning, roping or treating cattle in the pasture. The overusage of 'bits and spurs' is not as common as you would think, but if you see one person over-using his bits and spurs, that image stays with people a lot longer than the REAL cowboy who has a good and humane relationship with his/her horse whether they are working or competing together.

I dare to say, at least where I hail from, there are more REAL cowboys who treat their horses sometimes better than their relatives, than the dime store 'wanna be's' out there. I'm really tired of the bad reputation the word 'cowboy' is getting.

I live amongst some of the finest, kindest God-fearing cowboys around who love their horses and treat them like royalty, in the competition arena and out on the range.

Like everything in this life, there are bad applies in every equine discipline. But let's not label 'cowboy' as something that it's not.

Off my soapbox now!
New Member:
Lizc

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 3:52 pm:

LindaS,
I have experienced this same "type" of Training where the horses head is tied usually at the bit to the saddle and left there for long periods of time. when I questioned the "trainer" she told me it was to teach the horse not to follow it's head. If horses aren't supposed to follow their heads why are they on the front. I also witnessed this same trainer tying a young (6mon) filly to a cinder block wall with a heavy log chain for 8 to 10 hours a day in a nylon halter and not the break a way halter either. If the young filly decided to panic she could have broken her neck. I don't get what's up with some of these trainers that don't show any respect for the animal. Most of them wouldn't think of treating a child this way.

Apparently this is still going on even here in Northern VA. It just makes me sick to see an animal treated this way.
Member:
Amara

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 4:15 pm:

when i learned "horse training" a long time ago i was taught to tie the horse's head to the saddle. we did it to teach the horse to give to the bit on each side before we started long lining and ground driving. i do have to admit that those horses that we did tie responded better to the long lining and ground driving than those that we didnt. no horse was tied real short or left unattended. i think the longest a horse was left tied for was about an hour. the stall was emmptied of anything that the horse could get caught on. generally we did this for about a week and then moved on.

we never tied a horse's head up to get him to put his head down... training is about training, not about exhausting the horse.. i know lots of people who did that tho.. they never were allowed to handle any of my horses!...

occasionally we would get a youngster in with very bad/dangerous ground manners. teaching the horse to lead in a more traditional manner was at times dangerous and an extremely long process.. the easiest way to train those horses was to tie them to one of the burros... we let the burro do all the training...if the burro wanted to go somewhere, the youngster had no choice but to follow.. if the burro DIDNT want to go somewhere, the youngster had no choice but to wait.. and if the burro wanted to lay down then the youngster learned patience... about a day or so of that and we had pretty good youngsters...

nowadays i dont do any of that, and far prefer to train the horse's mind then the body... and i've gotten to the point that i dont need a "professional" to help me with my horse...(for some of them i wish i could help them!)

and as far as those "so called cowboys"...*sigh*.. as mentioned, the horse is not a living creature to them but instead some sort of ATV... those yahoos and people who think of themselves before the horse are the reason that i'm out of the professional part of the horse industry. i will not be paid to take care of horses that people will treat poorly when away from my care, nor do i want to train a horse then allow some yahoo to abuse it...
Member:
Lynnea

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 4:43 pm:

Cindy...the lady was telling the truth. Years ago I had a friend who worked at a barn of western pleasure horses....the so called trainer won a lot and therefore had a lot of clients. She had certain hours that her clients could visit..those hours being after her training sessions. She would tie those poor horses up at night in their stalls ..heads tied high ..ususally she did this more often before a show. In the morning the horses necks were so tired , they carried them low enough to win. I am sure it was common practice 25 years ago. Bit to the saddle was also common practice as was tying to the tail to effect a bending of the neck for spinning. All abusive and cruel methods to reach an end that patience, time and gentle teaching could accomplish . The "natural horsemanship" teachings today are only common sense mixed with respect, sensitivity and a genuine love of a special animal.
Much abuse and cruelty is found in the show world more than anywhere else...at least from what I have seen over the years. The goal of winning can infect people to losing all sense of perspective and the desire to succeed at any cost supercedes the good in competing. I do agree , as stated above, that the true "cowboy"was and is a special breed...way apart from the ones who claim to be cowboys and have no regard for their horse. I knew an old cowboy who was one of the kindest and most gentle people I have ever known. His horses loved him, they did everything he asked with a willing heart. He took time, time , time to teach them ..and when his favorite mare died, I watched him cry with a broken heart.
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 6:33 pm:

SHERRI, HAVE YOU EVER READ MARK RASHIDS BOOKS??tHE OLD COWBOY WHO TAUGHT HIM WAS MUCH LIKE MY HUSBAND'S GRANDFATHER.If you go to Mark"s web site read the old man's gate.When your life depended on your horse one took great care of your mount long before taking care of yourself! Many riders today seem to have switched that axium around. sigh! I was afraid tying horses high was very common it is so unnatural!The horses give so much to bad we can't accept their gift with as much grace!! Cindy
Member:
Dove2

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 7:51 pm:

the true "cowboy"was and is a special breed...way apart from the ones who claim to be cowboys and have no regard for their horse. I knew an old cowboy who was one of the kindest and most gentle people I have ever known. His horses loved him, they did everything he asked with a willing heart. He took time, time , time to teach them ..and when his favorite mare died, I watched him cry with a broken heart.

This sounds like a real cowboy. What shall we call the imitation ones?
Member:
Lynnea

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 8:07 pm:

Actually I believe the "real cowboy" was a true horseman. I can think of a lot of names to call the imitation!!!
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 8:59 pm:

Yes Lynne that would be a long and colorful list for sure!! Cindy
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 7:31 am:

Cindy, can't tell from your post ( all caps) whether you agreed with my post or have it confused with another one, as I am definitely agreeing that the definition of a 'real cowboy' is a man of honor, dignity, compassion and skill.

Let's call the others just what they are 'wannabe's. That's what we call them here.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 7:58 am:

Sherri,

I hope you noticed the ? after "the cowboy way" I really appreciated your post,and I can only hope that some day I am lucky enough to ride with some real,um, horse people who use horses in the traditional way. Horses with actual cow sense, trained by folks with horse sense. I don't know if I will every use the term "cowboy" again without really thinking about what it means.

I wish instead of sitting through the wanna-bees, I had spent an afternoon at the AQHA in OKC. We did talk about going there, it was just getting started but it didn't work out for us time wise.

I have a friend who is in is mid 70's, and this guy can ride in such an unbelievable manner I am just in awe. He could probably match the above mentioned rider, Stacy! When we discuss training, he always mentions how many horses he totally ruined before he learned a better way. He grew up in some Western state, and "broke" horses for many years. Notice the word is "broke", not "trained". Ignorance has a lot to do with what we are discussing. I personally don't understand how anyone can get involved with a new endeavor without researching the how and why of it, but that's just me.

Barb wire in mouths? Heads tied up? Heads tied to cement blocks, tied to saddles, tails, what not. My heart is aching and I am speechless.

I remember many years ago there was a security guard where I worked who was a weekend rider. Came in with his wrist in a cast because he had hit his horse between the ears for tossing his head!! Applause, Applause for the horse!

As a teen, I had the misfortune of putting up with a younger girl who owned a beautiful blood bay Arab who was so sweet and gentle. She would run this poor horse up and down the gravel road, and really yank him around. One day he took off with her and ran into the yard and under a tree with a low hanging branch. We are talking BIG branch, the size us kids all sat on! Knocked her right off, smacked her either head on, or chest on. This was before helmets were worn by anyone. She laid there yowling at the top of her lungs, and I just caught the horse and put him in the barn. Didn't even check if she had anything broken as I figured she had it coming! I'd probably be more concerned now that I am older...but anyhow, I like to see the horse get even once in the while!

Why is mankind so egotistic that we think we can control anyone or any creature through force, or pain and intimidation? That must be the $10 million question here.

Off to hug my horses and remind them how lucky they are to be owned by me!
Member:
Banthony

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 9:41 am:

I guess what I always think of when I see something like a horse with it's head tied to it's side, is what that is doing to the muscles in the neck. I would like to take the person who thinks this is a good idea and tie their arm behind their back for the same length of time. Maybe when their muscles started to cramp and they couldn't move to relieve it, and they ended up so sore they could hardly move their arm, they would think before doing that to their horse.

The horse I saw was tied to a tree with no one in sight. I'm kind of sorry I didn't climb over the fence and untie him.
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 9:45 am:

Hi Angie,
Yes. I did notice the "?" -- no worries.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 11:12 am:

Cindy, Mark Rashid is AWESOME! I went to one of his clinics last month...just wonderful horsemanship is all I saw...even with a filly who was having a four year old "moment". He's all about "going with" the movement of the horse to fix what needs to be fixed, not stopping and tying, or whatever.

I too have seen some bad horsemanship at team pennings and sortings... :-(
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 12:31 pm:

I've also seen bad horsemanship at dressage, jumping, cross country, big lick shows (the worst)...the list would include every single equine event known to man.....so let's not just crucify the 'western' events please. I know no one here is singling 'us' out, but it does seem that 'we' are always defending what we do.

I will say it again...there are bad apples in every sport and every profession.
Member:
Sunny66

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 12:47 pm:

My apologies if I offended... you are very correct that there is bad horsemanship in every sport.
Member:
Lhenning

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 1:01 pm:

Seems like compassion is what is missing in those wannabees. Compassion is feeling what another feels. Isn't "feel" a critical element of horse training? Perhaps they are losers at training because they lack compassion.
Member:
Zarr

Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 4:30 pm:

Sherri, sorry my post was in caps to start but I'm a two fingered typest at best and this thing has a mind of its own, maybe I should try carrots!!I was agreeing with and hoping you had read Mark's books.? Rhinestone, drugstore , wannabes or just out right cruel people what ever you call them they are unthinking uncaring beings who I hope come back as trees in central park! Cindy
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 7:25 am:

No worries Aileen. I took no offense from your post, just felt the need to point out that there is compassion lacking somewhere in just about every walk of life, it's far from a perfect world.

Cindy...I haven't read Mark's books, but I will take your advice and do so.
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 5:49 pm:

I have to live with this kind of thing all the time. I live just down the road from a big horse trader who put in an arena and has rodeo's every Friday night May through October. Trust me after seeing that I wouldn't take my little reining horse down there for anything in the world!
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 7:21 am:

I can imagine it's not pleasant Judith. Don't even get me started on 'horse traders'.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 7:45 am:

Ah yes .. the "horse trader".
When I first decided to try and launch my business, one of the major points of my business plan was
"to bring honesty and integrity to a traditionally unscrupulous industry". Again, not all but many fit that bill. I can't tell you how many horses my wife and I have bought just to keep them away from some of these "traders". No real cowboys in that bunch either.
DT
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:06 am:

Amen...you said a mouthful there Dennis!
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:20 am:

I should say in defense of western riders in my area they do have some very nice horse shows. There are a lot of 4H, and Quarter Horse shows where you find a lot of good people do some amazing things with their horses. I guess we don't look at our horses the same way they do.
Member:
Dtranch

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:40 am:

Hold on now .... not sayin' nothin' bad about western riders ... I are one!!! Reining, Cutting, Barrel Racing, Pole Bending, and Western Shows are all great, and most of the riders look at their horses exactly as we do. It's the jack ass's that don't that make it look bad, and they are in every discipline.
DT
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 11:38 am:

I'm not talking about you Dennis, I was still rambling about the Horse Traders and how they look at their horses and how other western riders look at their horses. I'm a western rider too. You'll never see my horse doing sliding stops without leg protection and I'm sure I won't see yours doing it either.
Member:
Tangoh

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 12:21 pm:

I are one too!
Member:
Dove2

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 1:26 pm:

How about Vaqueros? Does anyone know much about the history or methodology of Vaqueros? Were they considerate of their horses? I know that they had a sequential training process and introduced the bosal to us. The bosal was a stepping stone from the snaffle bit to the shank bit, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). I eventually want to study the Vaqueros, but if anyone here has any insights, it might be interesting. Does anyone follow their teachings?
Member:
Jgordo03

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 1:54 pm:

Dove2,
All I know about the Vaqueros is that they were the original cowboys. and the work buckaroo is the mispronounced work for Vaqueros. Sorry
Judi
Member:
Christel

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 5:31 pm:

sorry to interrupt-wanted to remind everyone, the jumping finals of the quarter horse world are being shown on internet now- to get there go to aqha.com, click on world show banner, then click on live video. Tonite starting at 7 central time, the finals of jr. reining, then sr. working cowhorse will be on.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:35 pm:

I've bought horses from horse traders and actually found it to be a pleasant experience. I enjoy seeing many different breeds, ages and colors all in one setting. What I found was that in general, the nicer the set up, the better quality of horses for sale, and the more honest the folks were about the horses they were selling. If someone is running a horse buy, trade and sell facility and they've put some big bucks into the buildings, fences and all, it's a good bet the horses are cared for also.

Same seems to be true for those with stallions.

I've had the most painful dealings, emotionally and financially, with stallion owners than anyone else.

I've never sent a horse out for training, but in the case of trainers, it doesn't seem to matter as much if there is a nice set up or not. In fact some of the nicest set ups seemed to have some rather snobby trainers as if money equaled more knowledge and skill!! Maybe that's just in my neck of the woods though.
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