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Discussion on Aggressive horses or training approach
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 10:54 am:
Hi all,
We have a new trainer in our area, and after talking with her I decided to try her out. I sent her a 7 yr. old broodmare to be broke to ride. (I just bought her last year and I feel better when I know that a mare has training to fall back on if they can no longer breed. I think that its just responsible horse ownership.) Anyway, the trainer claims that she was extremely aggressive with her for the first day or so, kicking, charging, and very stubborn. I'm not going to go into details, but the mare ended up lame after a few days and had to be brought home. The trainer says that I sent her lame, and I think that she just hurt something there. I have not seen any sign of lameness since the day after I got her home. Since I paid for 30 days, I decided to send a couple of yearlings for some ground work and training on manners to take the mare's place. One of the yearlings was a stud colt and the other a filly (half brother and sister throught the sire). The filly is a nervous sort around people and I just wanted her to get comfortable with being approached. She worked mostly with the stud colt and she said that he was extremely aggressive with her for the first few days (biting, kicking, charging, rearing, etc.), but he came out of it and developed a want to please attitude. I chalked it up to a little stud monster coming out, but personally I had never ever had anything but great experiences handling him. Overall, I was pleased with what she did for my yearlings and my broodmare was better mannered, so I recommended her to a friend who had an issue with her yearling pushing into her and not respecting her space, and now that my friend is pregnant she was concerned about being hurt by her. Other than that she never had a problem working with the filly, she seemed to have a sweet personality, just was spoiled by my friend. My friend sends her yearling to this trainer and now this trainer is telling her that her filly is super aggressive and she hasn't been able to get her out of it. She's had her two weeks and is not sure that this filly will ever be a good horse. As you can imagine, this has upset my friend quite a bit. The trainer is blaming it on the sire, because all three of these yearlings that I have mentioned are by the same stallion, but for those of us that know the stallion you couldn't ask for a sweeter, easier going guy. I'm starting to wonder if it is just her training techniques that have our horses in fight mode. It is now 4 horses that she has had one completely unrelated and the other 3 half siblings that have responded negatively to her training approach, at least at first. Could it be an issue with the trainer? I'm taking the mare to a different trainer soon, one I have used in the past and love what he does with horses, but he only trains in the winter months. I have recommended to my friend that she take her filly there when she is old enough to be ridden. I'm just hoping for some feedback on what some of you think.
Thanks
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Member:
36541
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 1:46 pm:
Were you able to watch any of her interactions with your horses? Does she claim to follow any certain methodology? Does she compete any of the horses she trains? I have learned at my cost that just because someone claims to be a trainer, and has horses in the barn, they may be over-rating themselves at the least, and very detrimental to your horse as well.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 3:46 pm:
I, too, have learned a big lesson regarding "trainers." Unfortunately, it is an unregulated industry. People promote themselves into this position, and grant themselves an honorary degree. I sure wished the entire equine industry required some proof of education or skill level.
What I learned in the school of hard knocks:
Don't just go by referral or recommendation of others. Most of the time, these folks have not used the trainer; they just know of the trainer. If they did use the trainer, ask them what significant difference the trainer made to their horse.
Go and watch the trainer yourself. Have a list of questions.
Don't be intimidated by the trainer. If you don't understand a response or if it doesn't make sense to you, keep prodding for an answer you understand.
Go to each and every training session of the horse, if at all possible. As soon as I stopped going, the training stopped or significantly subsided.
Set up achievable goals with the trainer (a specific list from you), with a time frame. See how closely the trainer can keep to their original estimates.
Don't pay everything in advance. Reserve some of the fee until the end of successful completion.
And, as my mother always used to say: If you want it done right, do it yourself! 
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 12, 2006 - 3:47 pm:
Well, I did watch her work with my stud colt, but it was after she had been working with him for 2 weeks. He did everything that she asked him to do. I have no idea (other than what she told me) what she did to get him to that point. I can't really remember for sure who she follows the most maybe Clinton Anderson? She kind of laughed at me when I told her that I was interested in John Lyons and replied that he's ok. She loves to barrel race and she has started her own horses for that, but she doesn't like to finish horses. She prefers to start them, basically just the 30 days training.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 8:17 am:
Something doesn't feel right, Karen. You know your horses better than anyone and for someone to handle them for a couple of weeks and then describe a totally different personality to the horses...it just doesn't ring true to me and I would be very concerned about this trainer's methods. The list above that Dove2 gives is a great way to evaluate a new trainer...I would watch such a trainer working another horse before I considered bringing one of my own.
Years ago, when I first started riding, I decided I wanted my own horse. A friend and I searched extensively. We ended up at one local barn and tried two lovely Arabs. Granted, they were very well behaved under saddle. But, as we talked to this trainer and moved from stall to stall looking at the horses, one thing struck both my friend and I: None of the horses came to the front of the stalls to check us out, or to beg for a treat or a scratch. They all stayed as far away as possible from us as we approached each stall. The realisation dawned that the horses were all afraid to come over and say hello. It was very sad and needless to say, I never purchased a horse there nor did I ever recommend this guy.
Follow your gut.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 9:14 am:
Karen ...
One thing some "trainers" like to do is tell you had bad your horse "was" so you will be impressed with the wonderful job they did. Since this seems to be the mantra with every horse, I would suspect a little of this self imposed reputation building here as well.
As Dove stated, anyone can call themselves a "trainer", but there are many things you can use to evaluate. Ask questions, and talk to other customers, and as Fran said, pay close attention to other horses in the trainers care. Look in their eyes, watch their body language, etc. If a trainer will not answer your questions and address your concerns, don't use them.
I generally have a session with the owner and go over a checklist. We try to evaluate exactly where the horse is now, and where we would like the horse to be. We also discuss the owners experience level and determine what training may be helpful for the human counterpart. We want to make sure the goals we have for the horse are realistic, and that the owner will be able to realize these goals as well. Don't pay for extensive top level training if you are simply wanting a good trail horse, but don't go the low dollar route if you are wanting more. Be honest and realistic.
Most importantly, make sure you understand the program, and be involved in the process. If the trainer would rather you not be around and doesn't encourage you to be involved, don't use them. I know sometimes this is not possible if you have to send the horse away for training, but at least stay informed.
As far as the education or skill level, it would be nice. However, I have looked into some sort of certification, and is is so commercialized and expensive that is is not practical for me anyway. Are you interested in a "certificate" that says I'm good, or are you interested in what I really know, and what I can do with your horse.
Finally, take some responsibility. Regardless of the quality of training, you can't take the horse home and forget him. You have to ride regularly and keep the training current. Don't knock the trainer when after 6 months of not working with you horse, you find he is a little off. That is your responsibility.
DT
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 10:54 am:
Are you interested in a "certificate" that says I'm good, or are you interested in what I really know, and what I can do with your horse.
The latter, of course. But how does a lay person find out what a trainer really knows and what they can do with their horse? No insult intended, for sure. I amend my statement above regarding certification (because we all know that's not proof) to say that I just wish there was a consumer advocate or consumer report guide for who are and where to find the good trainers. Hey, maybe I should start this service! Dennis, you'd be first in the book.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 11:37 am:
Dove ..
No insult taken, and I was not just being flippant. I agree that there is little information available for trainer evaluation. But, how do I know if I am getting a good Doctor or mechanic, or whatever. You know the old story about what they call the person who finished last in class in medical school. I guess there is the BBB and other avenues, but it usually comes down to word of mouth and satisfied customers. Other than serious infractions, consumer advocate or consumer report guides are based primarily on customer comments as well.
If I ever find a reasonable and affordable certification program, I will pursue, but I am not able to invest 20 grand and a year of my time so that I can say I am Parelli, or Lyons, or Reis, or Anderson certified. And, by the way, how did they get so reputable and qualified. We have had many discussions on this forum as to the pros and cons of each. so, I would have to assume that if I were to be certified by one of the "masters" .... at least half of the people still would not want me training their horse. It is truly a dilemma.
DT
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Member:
Hwood
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 12:41 pm:
Dennis, each trainer fills a different niche and each started by word of mouth and by turning out well-trained horses. You are doing that, and the sky's the limit.
Each trainer, in order to perpetuate his/her individual techniques, started a certification program to protect his/her reputation from trainers who SAY they are training "the Lyons's way" or "the Parelli way," but aren't effective for one reason or another. In order to offer certification, there has to be a financial investment on the part of the certifier and the certified . . . and the certification programs evolve as glitches are realized in the process.
There are some certified trainers who are not good trainers. They paid the fee, attended the sessions, but never got the "feel" of it . . . and even though those trainers have the legal certification, they still don't have the technique. From what I understand, Clinton Anderson has tried to circumvent that kind of error by setting a fee and sessions but not bestowing certification until the student is successful . . . and allows the student to repeat sessions as many times as is necessary until he/she "gets" it. From what I have been told, John didn't have that safe-guard built in . . . something that he learned the hard way . . . and there have been trainers who graduated from his program, yet are not of the same caliber as he is, or as are many of his graduates.
You are on the right track with your training program/business. Keep learning and adjusting . . . keep being teachable . . . and keep teaching the horse owners, as well. When the horses and people are "on the same page" success is possible. Your horses and clients will speak for themselves, and you will be able to market and promote your training methods as much as you decide you want to do . . . There are a lot of benefits of big time success, and with those successes come many sacrifices, too . . . I know that John is slowing down a bit (Heck, have you ever seen the poor man's legs??? I'd give up all the round pen work if I had legs like that, too.) and enjoying his family and the fruits of his labors. Josh is pushing ahead. Many of the other big name trainers are still young enough to do all the starting of colts and traveling to clinics, but they will slow down, too, as their bodies age. Hopefully, they will have embued younger folks with their horse/human dreams of clear, correct, and compassionate communication and response training so that fewer horses will have to endure the fear and pain of ignorant "Yahoos" and misguided "do-gooders."
The horses and clients are your certification, Dennis . . . and if you ever get to the place where you decide you need a DT certification program for proponents of your methods, then you will know how to do it when the time arises.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 1:41 pm:
It's interesting to hear the dilemma from the trainer's side. If you're good, you're good. I, for one, don't feel like the trainer is in as much of a dilemma as the clients are. Your reputation as a good trainer will go far and wide - especially after the first few successes. And certainly, if I lived anywhere close to you (within a 200 mile radius), I would not hesitate to go to you. Your participation here on this Board, your advice, your methodology are all a credit to your name. I do not need, nor want, you to have some clinician's name attached to your training. I may not have been clear in my concern.
Rather, I have found it extremely difficult to find a good trainer locally. Those to whom I was referred proved to be horrible. (They seemed OK at the start, talked the talk, but screwed up the horse.) Hence, my school of hard knocks checklist. But there does not seem to be a reference source or place to find a good trainer. How does someone like me, or Karen, find that great local trainer? There are a few "clinician" type trainers here, who make the local show circuits and write some articles, but if I were to take my horse to them, they'd have some trainee work with my horse. I'm not for that either. I'm just venting that it's a very difficult thing to find and/or determine a good trainer, especially in my area. It may not be the case in California or Colorado, or Oklahoma, but it sure is on the East Coast.
And yes, I agree with Dennis, that it's just as hard to find a good doctor, dentist, lawyer, hair cutter, dry cleaner .......I'll stop here because my list is long(er).
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 4:22 pm:
I'm compelled to jump in on the certification discussion.
While I agree that getting "certified" by an individual (John Lyons, Parelli, or even Dennis) is a dicey proposition, I truly believe that the U.S. "trainer" industry is in dire need of some regulation/certification/consumer awareness program.
My understanding of the British Horse Society certification is that it is based on what are accepted as general education requirements for horsemanship in that country by the resident experts. There is absolutely NO reason that USEF could not put together such a curriculum. Geez, Pony Club training is even well organized. USDF already has such a program in place for dressage instructors. It doesn't have to break the bank for the trainers either if it's run by a national organization that is already non-profit!!
I trained with one Quarter Horse trainer who had gone through the BHS training program. While there were some aspects of her program that didn't work for me, I certainly can say that she knew the theory inside and out and certainly did train the horses well.
Having such a certification program in place would do nothing but help people find competent, at least by someone's standards, training instead of having to go through all phases of the school of hard knocks.
Yes, there will always be someone who slips through the certification that is less than perfect and maybe even "bad". But at least it's a place to start.
Farriers are another example. I will only hire AFA certified farriers. That way I know that someone at least has made an effort to be properly educated and an unbiased third party has evaluated their skills.
It's hard to find the good local trainer, but if they're out there it's not impossible. Talk to people who's horses appear to be well-trained. Talk to trainers, ask about their education, both past and continuing. Observe training sessions and lessons. Ask for references and then check them.
Unfortunately, it's a really tough business to earn a living at. Sometimes the really good people are simply full, if so, ask about a waiting list. Also, sometimes trainers are asked to take on horses that are in such need of training as to be considered dangerous; there's no law saying they have to take your business.
Dove, I can't tell which riding discipline you're practicing, however, it's been my experience that Western trainers are less likely to go through the hassle of certification or education. Maybe it's because the clients aren't as adamant about it, who knows. Since I'm not an expert, I have to rely on some criteria. In the case of dressage, it's USDF medals and the training certification.
Chris
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Member:
Mcbizz
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 5:33 pm:
This discussion might go one step further...maybe people who wish to buy, sell or breed horses should also pass some type of certification as well.
Ownership of any animal is a responsibility that should be considered very seriously from all aspects. Horses have long passed from being a "commodity" to now being a luxury. A luxury that many people are not prepared for. Somewhat like child raising...
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 6:18 pm:
Thanks for the advice. I just wanted to hear your opinion on the matter with these horses. I do believe that it is her training that is causing these horses to respond aggressively. She really sounds as if she knows her stuff. I've read and studied everything that I could about horses all of my life, but have not had any formal training. When I had more time, I even started a few, but now I just don't have the needed time to start a horse. Actually, I've owned horses for about 15 years and though I don't know near everything I can usually stand my ground when talking to educated and professional horse people, but this woman makes me feel like a idiot when ever I talk to her. She comes off like she is an expert and don't you dare disagree with her on anything. I have already decided that I won't use her anymore and will continue to use my old trainer that I'm extremely happy with even if I have to wait until the winter months to get my horses trained. Thanks again for the support and advice.
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Member:
Mrose
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 6:19 pm:
IMO people should take classes in taking care of babies and children before they have them, but no one could ever get such a law passed because it would be infringing on peoples rights. I'm sure most people would see mandatory classes for owning horses the same way.
The best approach is education. There are very few people that actually abuse horses (or other animals) purposefully. Usually it is due to lack of knowledge of the right way to do things. If each one of us did our best to educate horse owners in our areas that would be one big step towards preventing abuse.
One way to educate others is to get involved with 4H, riding clubs (esp. for kids) and other such groups. They are all usually begging for knowledgeable people to help out. I've taught classes on care and feeding, show grooming,etc. with the local 4H and found it fun and rewarding.
You could also hold a clinic open to the public and have your local vet, feed dealer, feed reps, farrier, out to teach about feeding, basic health care, emergency first aid, proper foot care, etc. Serve some inexpensive refreshments like hotdogs, soda, etc. or even cookies and lemonade and charge a few dollars per person. You'll be surprised at how many people will turn up. Also, in conjunction with a local show, hold clinics of one type or another. Get a good local trainer, or someone that's there for the show, or just a knowledgeable horse owner, to teach some basics like the proper way to put on a halter, lead a horse, etc. or basic riding skills like using your legs to turn a horse, and the proper way to sit in a saddle. These are just some idea; I'm sure you all can think of others.
Another thing to do is when you see someone, especially a kid, having problems, go up to them. Introduce yourself, ask their name, and make a good comment about their horse. Then mention it looks like they were having difficulty; what were they trying to get the horse to do? Ask if they'd like you to show them something you learned that worked good with your horse. If they say yes, and they usually do, show them the correct way to do what they are trying to accomplish. Often it's a communication problem on the rider's part. If he doesn't know the right way to ask the horse to do something, he's not going to get the right response! I've found people to be very appreciative when I've done this, and they are so happy to learn that they rush off and tell their friends who are having the same problem.
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Member:
Kthorse
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 6:46 pm:
well said Holly.
I fortunately have never had to use a trainer but if I did I would make sure that if certified . they would have had to not only do the course but pass a very hard test as Clinton Anderson does. Word of mouth and proven success as well as a gut instinct about the person are other things I think I would look for.
Dennis you are on your way.
Karen it sounds like your gut instinct is telling you something is not right. Glad you are not using her. I have a friend who used a trainer. the trainer insisted that twice a week she would have to come out and work with her horse and trainer so that when the horse went home the training would not be undone. The trainer insisted that this was the most important part of her training working with them together. What a wonderful idea. It worked in my friends case. Maybe people should insist that the trainer works with the horse and owner during the training process. That way you can see first hand if this person is right for you and your horse.
Katrina
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 7:42 pm:
Karen,
So sorry if we digressed from your particular situation, but it's really more widespread than just your case. Yours is a perfect example of what happens quite often, and to many people. I've learned in my old age that when someone talks in such a way that you can't really understand anything with your own common sense other than they think themselves extremely knowledgeable and intelligent, watch out! The simpler put, the more intelligent and communicative, and probably effective, the individual. (DT, for example.)
Besides, I think most folks on this board know: It's not the horse that needs the training, it's the human! I think the horse should watch and the owner goes into the round pen!  Wouldn't it be perfect if the horse had to pay for the training too?
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 8:10 pm:
Hi all, Karen, if your 'gut' is telling you something isn't right go with it. Better not experiment with your horse.
The trainer called these horses aggressive,well, another word for aggressive is spirited, this is part of what 'heart' is, it gives the horse the umph to go the distance, the extra try that wins.
She may not be used to horse with this quality, which could certainly be passed on by a sire.
Your friends yearling was pushy, this means the yearling thought she was dominant over your friend, (ever see a lead mare getting pushed around?) it is not surprising that she tested the waters with the new trainer. Most horses will test to determine their position in the herd, this is normal not aggressive.
Without actually seeing what happened tho I don't want to be too hard on the trainer.
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Monday, Nov 13, 2006 - 9:03 pm:
I don't know what kind of horses that this trainer has had, and I really wanted to give her a chance, which is why I wanted to try her out in the first place. I was pleased with what she accomplished with my horses (except of course the mare turning up lame), but her comments that they were all aggressive concerned me. Then when my friend was told by the trainer that her's was so aggressive that the trainer recommended that she take her to a sale and be happy to get rid of her, it really alarmed me. This filly is just a yearling, and even though she shows a lack of respect by walking into my friend's space she has never shown any aggression.
I've been told that spirited horses can act aggressive with certain trainers, but until this experience haven't witnessed in personally. This might explain why I've never had any problems with my regular trainer. He's used to high spirited horses and trains them to behave while keeping their spirit intact. That being said I don't expect trainers to be able to work miracles, and going back to an earlier posting, nobody can expect to have a horse be perfectly trained if it sits around for 6 months. I understand that a trainer just puts a solid foundation on the horse and its up to the owner to continue to build on that foundation. I would never blame a trainer for anything a horse did after I got it home unless it was obvious that the trainer misrepresented themselves. I am also not saying that this trainer is a bad trainer because I don't think she is. I just think that she might not be the right trainer for me and my horses.
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Member:
Lynnea
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 12:10 am:
Karen, I am just curious to know if this trainer said anything positive about your horses. Seems to me she expressed only negative responses and to suggest your friend take her yearling filly and sell her ....is someone I would stay away from..for sure. My feeling is she is not a compatible person with horses, does not understand them and makes incredibly quick judgements on their behavior. I have raised several yearlings and they can be full of themselves with exuberance and a healthy dose of just feeling good. Never to be mistaken for aggressiveness unless you do not understand the nature of horses at that age. They just need to be consistently and gently taught to contain themselves when being handled. Their attention spans are just like young kids and should be handled as such.
I really don't want to judge this person, but since we are discussing "instincts" I thought I would throw mine in.
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 8:19 am:
Actually, the only good thing that she told me about any of them, other than that they are pretty, was about my stud colt. She said that once she got past his aggressive behavior he developed a want to please attitude and learned very quickly. I wish now that I had observed her working with them the first few times to see what she did to make them respond to her so aggressively.
When I first sent her my mare I thought that her personality was kind of abrasive. My mare is a 7 year old broodmare, and since she had only the basics lead, load, and tie I thought that she was very easy to handle and more respectful than a lot of broodmares that I have been around. After the first day at the trainer, the trainer told me "well you know that your mare doesn't lead and load." I was confused. What do you mean? I loaded her myself and of course lead her too. The trainer meant that since you have to get in the trailer with her to load her she really didn't load and since she leads off of pressure and not by following more subtle cues that she didn't know how to lead. I was a little put off by those comments, but decided that just because I find her abrasive to talk to doesn't mean that she's not a good trainer. I just decided to take her comments with a grain of salt. I guess I learned my lesson, but the good news is that my horses don't seem to be hurt by her training techniques and have been just as easy for me to handle. The training has also made my broodmare easier to catch. She was pretty evasive when I sent her for some training. Now, she knows to turn and face you. So, what she taught the horses was beneficial, but I was questioning the fact that they behaved so aggressive with her, and that doesn't seem right.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 8:57 am:
Let me play devil's advocate, so keep in mind that no offense is intended...
Karen, it seems from your last post that maybe this "trainer" was more demanding than you are. For example, expecting your mare to lead from body language and not from pressure as you indicated you do at home. You also note that the mare was easier to catch after returning home.
Could it be that you're the one dominated at home and that the "aggression" shown by your horses towards the trainer was their response to her challenging their dominance? I don't mean to insult you, but rather point out that there are other possibilities. Different standards for behavior can be confusing for horses.
One of the kids in our barn thinks it's OK for her horse to refuse to return to his stall. She says it's because he wants to stay out longer. Maybe; but I say it's because he doesn't respect her which is maybe why he's sometimes difficult under saddle. He tried it once when I was putting him away, got tapped with a whip I just "happened" to be carrying, tried some evasive tactics including trying to run me over only to be turned in a circle so that he was facing the stall again, so he walked in. He certainly had never shown this "aggression" towards his owner, but then she never pushed the topic with him.
Either way, you're right to go with your gut feeling and they are your horses.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 11:00 am:
Karen, Chris may have a point, I had a tendency to be too "soft" on my horse when I first got him, then I learned quickly that respect and consistency, on my part, is important.
I wanted to add one thing, I too have come across trainers that didn't like you to question them, or discuss training methods. If this is the case, they must not be confident enough in their abilities! Horsemanship is a very long journey, and even the masters know that it would take at least one lifetime if not 3 to learn everything there is to know about horses. Humility and humbleness is important to me in a trainer. If the trainer isn't open to discussion, I would move on... as it appears you have, and kudos to you.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 1:02 pm:
Karen, I want to say first and foremost I am very impressed with your decision to send your broodmare for training, for her own protection.
Those of you who are familiar with my posts know how strongly I feel about it being the owners' responsibility to maintain the sales-worthiness of our horses. It is the best protection from slaughter or mistreatment we can give them.
Secondly, it sounds like you have another trainer that you have used and liked in the past. Why not stick with that one in the future? Whether the new trainer is competent or not, it sounds like you two have a conflict of personality. I know that as stubborn as I am, if I don't like the person I will have a much more difficult time learning anything from them!
As for certification, for me it is almost a turn-off (you pays your money and you gets your cert.). There is no one body for all disciplines and therefore there can be a lot of confusion about who certifies who (whom?).
I think a good trainer gets real busy real quick when word gets around. The ones I know have a waiting list. One of them learned horses from his father and grandfather in Cuba--who is going to certify him? He is the best handler of difficult horses I have ever seen. But unless he got involved with the business of showing, clubs, etc., I doubt he would be able to be certified.
I find that asking your farrier is a good way to find out who is a good trainer.
Whew, this is getting wordy. I've been in Mexico away from my computer for most of the past two weeks. I guess opinions have built to the bursting point in my very opinionated head!
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 5:24 pm:
i'm also going to chime in and say that this trainer may not be as bad as one may think...
i gave up training professionally awhile ago, but if someone brought a horse to me for training that didnt face up when i approached, didnt lead without being pulled on and didnt load without my help, i'd say that the horse wasnt trained either!
as far as the horses getting aggressive, certain stallions or mares can pass along traits that will encourage their offspring to act out in a certain way when they dont get to do things their way... a pushy yearling suddenly being told it cant be pushy anymore may well become aggressive.. .and if the other horses had the same father, then when pushed to do something that they didnt want to do, they may well respond the same way... this has been shown to be true in many different facets of equine behavior-certain bloodlines are more prone to certain behaviors-even if the parents dont necessarily show them...
what bothers me about this trainer is that every horse is a good horse, and if she does her job right then even the most aggressive horse can be shown how to find its way...been there, done that...telling someone that a sale is the best option shows some measure of incompetence...
and at the very least any good trainer should be able to talk with you and explain the training methods... if not, no matter how good the results, you'll always be questioning the validity...
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 6:22 pm:
I'm not offended that you are looking at the other side of the story. I will say this though. I purchased this mare a year ago, and she has been kept in a pasture situation since. I did not handle her on a daily basis or even weekly, but when I did for rotating pastures, worming, shots, or trims she was evasive when I tried to catch her. Instead of working with her to over come that I just didn't deal with her unless I had to. Yes, that shows a lack of respect, and I allowed that through not working with her I realize my mistake. This mare lead beside me when ever I handled her, she was not one of those that you have to drag along, but sometimes she would need a light tug to get moving. As far as trailer loading. I loaded her when I brought her home and I loaded her when she went to the trainer's that is it. She never hesitated to enter the trailer at any time. The trainer just expects to point her finger in the trailer and the horse goes in first. I do not allow horses to push into me, rub on me, or turn away from me in a stall situation. I'm sure that I'm not as strict as some people on what constitutes excellent behavior, but I am an stickler when it comes to respect from my stallions and riding horses. I'm not too concerned about my broodmares that are not broke as long as they are easy to handle. As far as my young horses go. I usually leave them alone once they are used to being handled, like people, good for trims, and are halter broke. I leave any other training for when they are older. I've had 3 horses that were difficult to catch and all were purchased. All of my horses that I have raised are very friendly and love to see me especially when they see a halter, because they love to be handled.
My farrier is the trainer that I regularly use, but he only trains during the slower months (winter) which is why I tried to find another trainer for this mare that I wanted trained as soon as possible.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 6:52 pm:
Ditto Melissa on the leading, loading, and not facing up. I totally agree. It is not a bad thing, just not complete training, and I think Karen is aware of that.
As far as the reccomendations, I have gone both ways depending on different situations. When a client brings me a 3 or 4 y/o horse to start, and they want a nice bombproof trail horse, I may recommend going to an older more mature horse with considerable saddle work already done. That's not a bad thing, just a realistic observation.
I just worked a 2 y/o paint filly for a lady the other day who wanted me to come out and see what I thought. They bought her as a foal and they told me she was mean and aggressive, liked to bite and would try to kick them. They wanted to give her to me, or sell her cheap. As it turns out, they brought her home and turned her out in paddock with an older blind mare for company. They fed her treats through the fence and tried to pet her, but she wanted nothing to do with them after the treats were gone. When they tried to get near her, she would bite or kick at them.
I had to lasso her to catch her. In 45 minutes, I had a halter on her and had her working on some sending exercises on the lunge rope. She DrOpped her head and let me pet her, and I was able to pick up her feet after a few tries. I took the halter off and on a few times, then turned her loose. She followed me like my best friend. They were amazed and happy, and I didn't get a free horse.
I think these discussions point out one very important thing when evaluating a trainer, a horse, a rider, or an owner. Once we get "all" the facts, the situation often times looks a lot different.
However, one last thought ... If you can't communicate and get along with a trainer, it's time to try another one no matter how good they are. You will probably never be happy.
DT
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 8:10 pm:
DT,
Good for you on showing those people that the filly wasn't really mean. She just thought she was boss.
I very rarely feed treats to my horses, and most of the time I don't hand feed them I put the treat in their feed bucket. My friend on the other hand feeds treats every chance she gets and spoils all of her horses, so her filly's reaction to being told what to do is probably understandable. I don't see, however, how you could have a yearling for two weeks and tell the owner that she's not worth putting anymore money into. I will say again that I still don't believe that this person is a bad trainer, but she needs to adapt her lessons for different horses. She has a program that she takes all horses through and they must do each thing by a certain time frame. If this behavior is a genetic thing then I guess we will find out as these yearlings get older and have more training. I don't personally own their sire, but have been around him quite a bit and he is a sweetheart. The owners even let their grandchildren ride him. The dams of these yearlings are not related at all, and of course the broodmare that I sent was unrelated. I originally posted so I could find out if my concern about the trainer was justified. For the most part you agree that even if the problem is not with the trainer you support the idea of me not using her in the future. Thanks again for all of your advice.
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 10:21 am:
I talked to my friend last night and the trainer brought her yearling filly back last Sunday. She showed my friend what she taught her to do, and how she expected her to behave. My friend was please for the most part with the training that the filly received, but she did notice a few things that concerned her.
The trainer had complained that filly would do things, but her ears were back the whole time (Until that morning when the trainer allowed her husband to lead her into the trailer and her ears were up). My friend said that she noticed the ears back too when the trainer was handling her, but she also noticed that her yearling was extremely tense and nervous until the trainer handed her over to my friend. The filly visibly relaxed and the ears came forward. My friend practiced what the trainer did with her with the same results, but a happier more relaxed horse.
She's also noticed a difference in her behavior since getting her back. She said that she has been moping around the pasture and not socializing with the other horses, and she will not come to the fence to be petted. She knows to face you when you come into the pasture and won't step into your space, but she will not put her nose over the fence for petting like she used to(I'm sure that she's been taught not to because that is seen by the trainer as invading your space). My friend said that it all makes her very sad. I reassured her that her filly would settle in again and get over this. I hope that I'm right, but horses are pretty resilient for the most part.
A good thing that I have recently discovered about my stud colt who I had sent to this trainer. Before training he would let me do about anything with him, but he could care less about whether I petted him or not. Now, he will choose to stand by me in the pasture and show me that he really enjoys my attention. I don't know if he realized how good he's got it now or what, but now it's obvious that he looks forward to seeing me beyond the fact that I give him food. I think that I learned my lesson, but I think things are going to work out for the better overall.
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