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Discussion on Best Distance When Leading
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 1:56 pm:
This is such a basic thing that sometimes we take it for granted. However, I recently watched a TV episode where the clinician taught that the proper and safe way to lead a horse was to have the horse follow behind you six feet. Of course, she said you were to watch the horse at all times, out of the corner of your eye, I guess. I believe the most common suggested position while leading a horse is to be at the side of the horse's left shoulder. I alternate walking beside both left and right sides of the horse. Where do you think is the best position to lead a horse?
My horses prefer to lag behind. (I'm trying to teach them to hurry up because I'm usually in a hurry, and they're trying to teach me to slow down!) My riding horse particularly likes to follow in my footsteps, just as if he were walking behind another horse in the field, and stays back about three to four feet behind me. Are there any horse psychologists out there who can interpret this tendency?
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 3:40 pm:
I'm not a horse psychologist...but my two cents are that when they follow behind, they consider you their leader. Personally, I prefer them to be 1 to 2 feet away from me shoulder to shoulder. This way I'm safe if they spook because I can see them and they won't run into my back. I'm all about self-preservation!! I teach my horse to mimic my footsteps, forward, backward, to the side. Keeps him focused 
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 3:52 pm:
Aileen ...
Ditto on the side .. I hate being run over!
DT
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 14, 2006 - 5:17 pm:
the leader leads, and the follower should follow... from your head to his head should be about 10 ft. this is the way it is in a proper herd... if the horse is taught to lead properly and has respect for the leader, then he'll NEVER run over the leader..ever...doesnt matter where the scary thing is... he may well jump forward, but will ALWAYS go sideways away from you, or stop.... if you dont respond to the scary thing, then he'll see that the leader doesnt care, so he'll do the same thing...
i have been stepped on and pushed over by many horses taught to lead at my shoulder, no matter how "good" they were taught to lead...
i have NEVER had a problem with a horse taught to lead properly-one that follows at the correct distance-no matter how scary a situation we have been in...
a horse that follows closer than the 10ft bubble is enroaching on your space andtelling you that he thinks maybe he should be the leader... this horse may well run over you because he doesnt really give a darn about your leadership...
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 2:44 am:
The only safe place to be is beside the shoulder (2-3 feet away) so you cannot be kicked or bitten easily. It is also the easiest place to teach a young horse to lead properly by use of your hand beside their eye to stop them crossing across you or to slow down, and a stick in your left hand to tap them behind if they stop when you want them to move forward.
I think what is proposed is dangerous with young horses who delight in coming up behind you and nipping, and in the case of colts they may even "give you the front paw" from behind. I note with this 10 ft behind idea you are supposed to always watch them but due to human anatomy this is a great deal easier from the side.
Horses which are trained to lead properly from the side do not invade your space because you teach them not to (eg with a finger prod in the soft part of the nose if they come within 2 ft of you).
Imogen
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 6:31 am:
I think perhaps you're right, Imogen, that beside the shoulder is the easiest place to teach a horse to lead, however I'm not convinced it is the safest. I, like Melissa, have had close calls by a horse that spooks from a noise on his outside shoulder or from behind. They tend to jump away and forward from the spook and there I am, too close for comfort.
The method (used on this TV program) to teach a horse to lead 10 feet behind was to stop, turn around and ask the horse to move back away from you (by jiggling the rope) every time they start to invade your space. You'd also expect the horse to stop whenever you stop. I think it wouldn't take too many times before the horse gets it. Perhaps the backing up may possibly instill more obedience from the horse and better define that the person has a bubble.
Also, watch a clinician (Clinton Anderson, for example) leading a horse in an arena. The problem horse is always back about 10 feet. And I've been amazed that the person just walks in front so confidently. But it looks odd because we're all used to seeing a horse typically led at the person's shoulder. Besides, regular lead ropes don't even allow for a 10 foot spread.
I just find this an interesting observation and muse. Thanks for your input.
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Member:
Canter
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 8:21 am:
I too have been taught to lead with the horse at your side. The only time I've ever had a problem is when I got lazy and let the horse lag behind. At your side, you can see/sense what the horse is up to via your peripheral vision. When the horse is behind you, you loose that advantage.
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Member:
Frances
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 8:54 am:
Although I've always been told you should lead a horse from the side, mine, like Dove 2's, prefers to follow me. She seems so happy like that that I let her most of the time - but feel guilty ...
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 11:16 am:
Don't feel guilty, LL. If Clinton Anderson does it, you're in good company. It seems like my horses prefer it as well, and that's why I've contemplated this for awhile.
OK, so I tried leading both horses this morning at a 10 foot distance behind me. I did have to take a lot of backward glances. It took just 2 to 4 times of stopping, and if the horses did not stop, I'd back them up. They understood this quite easily and very quickly learned to stop when I did.
I did, in fact, feel safer with that distance between us. There seems to be a lot of time to react should the horse spook, because of the significant distance. However, I didn't feel like I had the same amount of control over the horse. For example, walking by a stack of hay, my opportunistic gelding snatched a bite. He wouldn't have been able to get away with that if he were at my side. Mainly, however, I missed the warm and cozy feeling of walking beside my horse.
I feel that side by side is more human-like, and single file at a distance is more horse-like. It's good to know that both ways are used and have their advantages, so neither is completely right nor wrong.
Thanks for your thoughts and experiences everyone.
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 3:52 pm:
My horse preferred the 10ft behind me bit too and was always a real sweetie, however he fractured his splint bone and was on box rest. When I could start the exercising again I lead him as usual and for a couple of weeks he was really good. Then one day for no reason he took off at speed, as he started 10ft behind me he built up a lot of momentum, knocked me to the ground and as I was still holding the rope and he was really fast now, managed to dislocate my shoulder, elbow, wrist and thumb, then got away. My wrist and shoulder are still causing me huge problems and so is the horse. Since getting away like that once he now tries it on frequently and can really hurt you. We are retraining him to walk beside the shoulder unsurprisingly. It only takes one fright and we are not all Clinton Anderson and this horse was ALWAYS good before.
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 6:23 pm:
having a horse 10ft behind would make me nervous!What are they doing back there??Have 4 very different horses but they all seem to naturally walk right at the shoulder.My spook turns himself inside out trying not to jump my way and he has never run over me just goes in every other direction at once.The guy who helped train our mustang was a 10 foot behind guy so we retrained Whiskey to shoulder which is good since he sometimes forgets where he is going!Also when the gang comes in from pasture they are not 10 ft. apart more like nose to tail, that has no appeal for me! Cindy
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 7:13 pm:
Wow, these stories and incidents have got me really thinking now. Catherine, I think your story might just turn my thinking around. I can sure see how a horse can get up more momentum than you could easily direct being 10 feet apart. So your tale certainly disproves the theory that 10 feet behind is safer.
The funny thing is that this evening, after asking my two horses to follow ten feet behind this morning, they both preferred to stay up close to me and followed much more softly. Isn't that weird? Or perhaps I just have contrarians. After all, isn't the grass greener and tastier in the other pasture?
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 8:17 pm:
Dove ..
AS with everything horsey, there are many opinions, but I would sure feel better if your horses were trained to lead at your shoulder. I have seen many people plowed over from the back. At the shoulder, I feel I can react better, and have periferal vision to help me.
Besides, if you are going to be in the showring, I don't know of any classes that have the horse follow 10' behind.
DT
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Member:
Morg1
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 9:01 pm:
I agree with DT. When I was in high school I allowed a horse to follow me once (he wasn't 10 foot back, but as far as the lead rope allowed 6 or 7 feet), and wouldn't you know it my sister came out of the house and let the screen door slam shut. It spooked the horse and he ended up knocking me down. His shoulder hit my shoulder. I never did that again. I was very lucky that I didn't get any worse than a couple scrapes. Like DT said any in hand classes that you see has the handler at the horse's shoulder, but if you're comfortable with them following you then that's ok too. If I was leading a horse that lagged behind me I would probably end up walking backwards so that I could keep an eye on them, and then I would probably trip and be on the ground anyway.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 15, 2006 - 9:26 pm:
OK, DT, shoulder it is. That is how I have been leading them, except they (particularly the mare) tend to want to walk slower than I normally walk (which is, I'll admit, a bit fast). So, other than with a crop or dressage whip, how do I ask them to keep pace with me shoulder to shoulder? I've been giving a tug or two, making it uncomfortable for them to lag behind, but they still tend to want to walk leisurely. I've increased my energy and marched with big steps (exaggerate to teach), but they tend to be pokey. Any tips or tricks on how best to teach them to keep pace with me at my shoulder?
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 7:33 am:
Dove ..
When training to lead, I use a lunge whip in my off hand, behind my back. If the horse lags behind, I just tap on the rear til they catch up to my shoulder. If they rush, I use the elbow of my lead hand to protect my space and tap on the lead rope if necessary. Practice leading at different speeds. Generally, the horse quickly learns where you want them to be.
DT
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 9:43 am:
Karen,
I don't think I'll try your backwards walking technique.  You're right about being lucky, and I think I'll just use your experience as my own; so thanks!
DT, I was trying to avoid having to go get equipment when I lead from field to barn for feedings, but I guess I'll need to do that for a few times. I notice that I really don't lead at the shoulder, it's more like horse's neck, my shoulder. And there are, in fact, times when I want them to go single file, like where there's a solid track inbetween muddy areas, so the single file training doesn't hurt. I guess the real tool here, just like everything else, is consistency.
I appreciate these real life experiences you all have written, because whereas theory is nice, there's no substitute for experience!
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Member:
Tangoh
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 9:48 am:
Good advice Dennis...this is our approach to lead training also.
Melissa, don't you think that it's possible that even a superbly well trained horse 'may' spook more than just a little at something, and if he's 10 feet behind you, you just 'may' be in the way of his 'flight' instincts. I'm not sure I'd trust the 'never ever' that you describe, especially when schooling a young horse.
I'm with the majority here...at the shoulder is where I want my horse to be.
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 9:59 am:
Dove, I use Dennis method exactly, It works very well. Sometimes my prima donna mare throws her head and is very indignant but too bad, she can get over it. It is taking a bit longer for her to realize that I mean every time I lead her because she was older when I got her and she has been allowed to poke along for many years.
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Member:
Dtranch
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:02 am:
Dove ..
You won't need to take equipment to bring them in from the field. Just incorporate into your training, and eventually they will do it anywhere. This is a part of basic ground school training.
Good luck Darlin'
DT
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:03 am:
When I read the post about ten feet behind the first thing I thought was a situation like Catherine described.
I don't mind if my horse is 2-3 feet and a bit to the side. If he crowds I simply kick backwards, this works incredibly well.
Trying to lead me is harder for me to correct, my prima mare likes to lead me if she can't poke along.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 10:18 am:
Dove, DT has great advice this is what I do:
First do the keep out of my space drill, then back up, move to the side, etc. to get their attention on you.
Stand by your horses shoulder
cluck and start your body moving forward, head and shoulders first (body language is very important)
take a step and if needed (most likely) give a little tap to encourage the horse to move with you, then stop. Try again.
Eventually, all they'll need is the cluck. The more you do it, the more they'll pay attention to your feet and body language.
As you said, consistency is key
I am NOT a trainer, but it works for my horse (who IS the best horse in the world...yes I'm biased but he is still a horse)... and he has yet to step on me, get in my space, or run me over even with over one year of just handwalking.
Dennis, or anyone, please alter if I could be doing things better. I'm already taking Imogen's advice on the 2 to 3 feet of space instead of my 1 to 2 feet of space between me and my horse.
Thanks!
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 11:02 am:
Thanks, all. Actually, my horses lead quite well and are very respectful of my space. I've done all the training you suggest, Aileen. Plus, they move whenever and wherever I point my arm. The thing I need to learn to do better is to get them to hurry on a little bit and keep pace with me. Our 4 year old mare prefers to be a bit pokey, particularly returning to the pasture. Otherwise, in the ring, going to the barn for grain, etc. she's fine.
You won't need to take equipment to bring them in from the field. Just incorporate into your training, and eventually they will do it anywhere. This is a part of basic ground school training.
DT, The weather really hampers my formal schooling program. Plus, my gelding hesitates slightly going into our arena, as if to say, "Gee, I'd just as soon not have to go in there." So I've gotten clever (I think you may have even suggested this) and do little training maneuvers outside any "formal" training. Walking to and from the pasture offers this opportunity.
This topic seems like such a trivial and basic training issue, but that TV show where 10 feet behind was deemed to be "the right way" really threw me off. I'll take life experiences over clinicians any day!
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 11:04 am:
well, i guess the difference is is that my horses respect my bubble.. i'm the leader.. if they spooked in a herd they wouldnt bump into the herd leader either.. they might bump into someone they thought was their equal tho, or even a lesser...
i dont walk backwards.. i feel what the rope is doing in my hand.. i can feel if it sags too much and they're getting too close, or if it sways to one side or the other... simple enough to fix if the horse respects you...
as for a horse snatching a bite, well, the horse shouldnt be eating anything unless you allow it, so its a sign of disrespect if a horse snatches a bite and needs to be dealt with... i walk right by bales of hay and open bags of grain without a problem.. i've even walked them through hay fields with hay past their chest and never had them snatch a bite..
as for the younger horses, i teach them all this as soon as they are able to lead... it instills from the very beginning that i'm the leader and they're not... they learn to look to me for guidance and stay in tuned with my energy level.. cuts down on the spooks big time..
like i said, the only time i've gotten into any trouble is at the shoulder.. even the youngsters on the windiest days arent a problem because the herd instinct is natural and i just manipulate it to my advantage...
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Member:
Tangoh
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 12:08 pm:
I guess there's usually more than one way to skin a cat....different strokes for different folks, and all that stuff.
The most important thing for anyone I guess is to do what works best for a particular horse, individual or situation.
Cheers!
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 12:35 pm:
Hi Dove, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to infer you hadn't done the training  ... what I wrote was just what I did/do to keep him by my shoulder and not lagging behind - as he wants to do.
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 1:31 pm:
No apologies needed, Aileen. I didn't take any offense and hope I didn't come across as defensive. I was looking for exactly what you wrote: different methods for keeping a horse moving up at my shoulder - especially when they lag behind. Thanks for your input - I always enjoy reading your posts.
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 2:39 pm:
Oh good! Thank you Dove
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 6:07 pm:
Hi Melissa, Problem with the whole leadership thing is that sometimes the leadership may be challenged! Looking back I can see that the whole box-rest thing probably changed a few things as far as leadership is concerned for my horse and he maybe decided that he didn't like my decisions and tried it on. I felt the rope slacken all right but he was faster than me and I got hurt. Bottom line, we are not horses and we can only think like them not as them. Even the quietest horse can have a pushy day and as far as I am concerned I make sure they are within my sight now so that I have the edge, not them. Interestingly a horse is more likely to jump on you when it respects you and this was written up as a scientific paper. If a horse finds something frightening and sees that you are calm, it seems that horses do not reason like us, their evolution tells them that the reason that we are calm is because we are standing on a "safe" piece of ground and so they kindly try to share it with us. Stands to reason if you think about it. In the wild if a wild cat attacked the horses would all bolt, after the initial run ,if one horse was standing calmly then the others would presume that it was in a defendable position and safe and would join it. I have always lead my horses at the shoulder as I would show them in young event classes etc but this horse had been taught the other way and I respected that. Not any more!
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Member:
Ilona
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 8:23 pm:
I have a slightly different problem, my horse is so tall,17.3h and his neck so long and head huge and high that when I 'lead' from the shoulder he is, in fact, in front of me by virtue of his head and neck position. I have found it safer to lead with his head next to my shoulder about 3ft away. I works well for both of us. I maintain leadership and control. I have adopted this with all my horses and find it most comfortable. Its probably considered bad form but I don't care, it works best for me. I have very close contact, no concern about what they may be up to, nor of them getting away from me. Also I can tell very quickly from body language and facial expression if there is any tension and I can take pre-emptive measure which has proven invaluable on may occasions. Just thought I would add my 2 cents worth.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 8:48 pm:
Well Catherine hit on something I was pondering...the only one of my horses that has run me over is my very old, very submissive, trained to death Morgan gelding. Disrespect is just not in his vocabulary!
I guess when it is a choice between my shoulder and that big mare's teeth, he'll choose my shoulder as the safer option!
Personally, I like shoulder to shoulder rather that looking over mine!
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 16, 2006 - 9:46 pm:
" Interestingly a horse is more likely to jump on you when it respects you and this was written up as a scientific paper.
That is interesting. I often get the feeling that my horse wants to jump into my pocket when he's afraid. Sometimes he'll try to tuck his head into me, like for reassurance. Other times, like at a recent bombproofing clinic we attended, there were times when he would have preferred to be in my skin. He doesn't seem disrespectful at all when he does this, just insecure. It feels like he just wants to be reassured and protected.
Catherine, do you know what scientific paper that was?
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Member:
Green007
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 6:27 am:
I use the DT technique from very green horses on up. It works well and teaches them to read your body language. If they get rusty, the whip comes back out for a few sessions. It is very similar to teaching a dog to heel at whatever speed you select, without crossing in front of you nor dragging behind you.
Good luck!
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 11:20 am:
i too want to read this paper.. made me laugh just a bit honestly...
definately horses who think they should be leader will try to challenge us.. that is why every time we interact with a horse we are always a leader... if the moment you are in sight of your horse you expect a certain behavior from them and this behavior is something that is naturally hardwired into the horse's genetic memory and you act in a way that is similar to how a lead horse in a real situation would act, then the only horse's that may try to challenge you would be the ones who truly are close to being able to be a leader. with them you work a bit harder but if you are consistent then they will learn to accept second position... if you give up your leadership role at any time with this kind of horse - say you feed it improperly- then you have given up leadership position and deserve to be placed second.. at which point he has every tight to run right over you...
a horse will most definately go to the point of calm in a storm... it is why broke horses are sent out to group up with wild mustangs and bring them into a corral... but as for jumping into his spot? - only if they want a set of hooves square between the eyes... they know this instinctively....
the calmest most submissive horse may not necessarily be respectful.. submission should not be confused with respect...
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 12:17 pm:
the calmest most submissive horse may not necessarily be respectful.. submission should not be confused with respect...
That's interesting. Can you explain this further, because I must be confusing the two. I always thought the horse that gives way to another is being respectful of that horse. Please expound.
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Member:
Kstud
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 12:35 pm:
hi, will look up that paper, saw it at a conference a few years ago and it was published after in a few of the horse magazines. Have often noticed how a horse would jump in your pocket too if scared
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 2:44 pm:
Hi all,
I tend to think on the same track as Melissa, and would also really like to read the paper that Catherine is referring to. Especially the part about a horse wanting to be in the same place as the leader. I just cannot comprehend that, because in all my research and observations, if a horse did try to do that, the leader probably wouldn't have no part of it.
A horse will not challenge the leader in a herd, whether human or otherwise, unless that leader has already shown weakness, has been inconsistent, or the challenging horse thinks it has a good chance to win. Thus, when we interact with horses, it must always be reinforced that we are the leader. And in fact, horses crave it. They wanna know who the leader is, and what their position is, etc. Everything is black and white to a horse, there are no grey areas. They want it all worked out, so that there's no "discussing" should a "life-or-death" situation arise.
As far as leading, the closer and tighter you hold a horse, the more claustrophobic they'll become.
I was taught that my horse's head should never be in front of my shoulder. They should always walk with either their head at my side, or even better, a little behind. And also to hold the rope about four feet from the clasp, no shorter than that.
That's what I strive for. The only time I've ever had problems leading a horse, was when (1) I had my hands too close to the clasp, (2) the horse's head was in front of me, and (3) I didn't take the time to gain the horse's respect and the leadership position.
Just my two cents,
Nicole
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 3:01 pm:
Melissa, Nicola etc.
In my experience horses CONTINUALLY challenge all of the others in the herd in small ways to test if their position has altered (eg through age, disease, absence of someone else from the pecking order). They are worse than toddlers!
Watch them in the field. The boss has to continually boss the others to stay on top - it is not some sort of once-off procedure...
I absolutely support what Catherine said: "Bottom line, we are not horses and we can only think like them not as them."
Safety first...
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 6:06 pm:
in a proper herd there shouldnt be any of the constant one upsmanship going on.. we see it a lot when herds are too large, not made up of the correct groups, or dont have a clear cut leader because no one horse is capable of doing the job right... we dont generally breed riding horses to be very tough...not in that mental sense where they are correctly dominant in a herd... this is why most people find it very hard to train an older wild mustang... nature has designed them to be mentally tough.... we dont want that in our riding horses! not that we dont get it tho, plenty of our horses are that way...
an ideal herd would have a very dominant alpha male and female.. they keep all the rest in line.. i've seen this several times and its quite a sight.. a proper domestic herd that goes to the eating grounds together, the watering grounds, etc, with no squabbling.. only some play fighting amongst the youngsters, which is tolerated only until the lead mare has had enough...lead mare says when its time to move to different areas, stallion (or gelding if that's the case), rounds up all the stragglers and wards off any wanna be threats... i never saw any horse bump into either one of those two if they were scared!
as far as respect and submission... you misunderstand dove2, as i was saying that when associating with humans the calmest horse is not always the most respectful... when horses relate to each other, the proper leader establishes himself in no uncertain terms as the leader.. respect and submission do go hand in hand in that scenario, except in those situations that nicole so aptly pointed out
but as far as their association with us, its not very dissimilar to what humans do with each other... how many bosses have you ever had to work for that you had to submit to their "demands", no matter how idiotic you thought they were? no matter how little respect you had for that person? its a common scene in law enforcement and military let me assure you... i once had a squad leader whose only purpose according to our advisor was to get us used to exactly that scenario
horses frequently submit without respect.. if they were truly respectful, would that dead broke horse be difficult to catch, lazy, mug you for treats/meals, pin ears when having girth tightened or when asked to move faster/do something it didnt want to do?...i've seen a lot of dead broke horses that submitted to their owner- and did many of those disrespectful things i just mentioned.. (and yes, i've seen some who didnt do any of those)
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 6:18 pm:
For those of you who have read Rashid's book you will know the story of Buck and Otis.Otis ruled the herd with iron hooves and quick teeth no one strayed nor was he challenged til Buck joined the herd.Buck didn't challenge Otis he was just there doing his thing and slowly the herd one by one went to Buck's side of the pasture.Why because Buck was a very calm horse with a quiet air of complete confidence.Now I'm older than most here don't walk straight anymore have not much strength in hands but I do know I'm my herds leader the old grey mare if you will.Almost all my work is done with no halter or leads I'm very verbal in commands they all know at least a dozen verbal cues.The day the bulldozer came down the road and 4 horses wheeled and raced my way I prayed Buck was right, he was, instead of running over me or leaping in my pocket they formed a semi circle behind me. It was an amazing experience.I expect them to do the correct thing and if they try other wise a quick" Manners" stops them!Believe this comes from the canine world but calm assertive leadership works everytime. Cindy
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 6:37 pm:
very impressive cindy...
and exactly how it should be... calmest point in a storm, but never on top of that calmest point..
am curious - when they were facing you after the incident with the bulldozer, were they squared up and facing you, or squared up and watching the bulldozer..
just curious as to where the natural concern reflex took them...
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 7:01 pm:
Very, very interesting topic!!! I wasn't going to even read through this, sounded so, um, routine? It's very thought provoking, glad I am reading it.
A comment regarding Melissa's statements about respecting her bubble, and the horses not bumping into her space. You say that in a herd the horses wouldn't bump into the leader...um, weeeeeellll, do you think that is because in that situation the leader would have already been running into the next county?
We hope to be the leader for the horse but we don't really act like the herd boss and do expect the horse to act on our terms, not horse terms. So keeping that in mind....
I haven't given much thought as to how I lead my horses. I think I basically lead each one according to his/her personality. Guess I'll have to try some different things now that you've got me pondering this.
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Friday, Nov 17, 2006 - 7:48 pm:
We were all facing the bulldozer they were fanned out behind me if I'm leader that is where they should be! The ranking then comes as to who is on my right and on my left and so on.I have always looked at every situation as a learning/teaching oppertunity and evolved things from there. The really interesting thing has been our mustang.He is a great watcher.My mare has learned to line dance(kinda) and several other "tricks" she is a very fast leaner however as Ellie and I workout one time Whiskey who had no training in "dance" broke out into the same routine !! All on his own, Boy was there ever a lesson there, for me!! Cindy
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 1:31 am:
its not just a learning thing with the mustang, but that he is probably so pure because he has probably had little training that he naturally responds to the general energy and vector and positioning of you and your other horses... its all a reflex...
personally i find the most wild horses the easiest to train because of this...
angie - if its a truly scary situation then yes, the leader may well be in the next county, but there are individuals in every group and one may be "scared" of something that the leader doesnt give a darn about.. this is especially true with young horses... if the leader popped into the next county every time something remotely scary came up you'd have a herd of scaredy cats... this is how young horses in a good herd learn NOT to be scared of mundane things, like going thru water and around big rocks - the same way we do it on the trail.. with a lead horse that isnt bothered... the youngsters sometimes have some leeway in bouncing off the older horses, but even they know not to bother the leader - generally...
as far as acting the herd boss - i do act like one.. i've taken the time to study and learn how a herd boss acts, and then stepped into the shoes.. it may make me look a little strict sometimes, but i have good safe horses who trust me and i trust them... i do not expect the horses to act on my terms.. that's not something that a horse is really designed to do... he was designed to be and think like a horse.. his ability to understand logic and think like a human is by necessity limited... they're not stupid by any means, just not designed to think like us... it would be very selfish of me to expect my horses to think like me, when they're not actually designed to do it... as a "higher function" animal, i have the ability to change the way i think, so when i'm around a horse i think like them...
it is most definately possible to change the way you think... if you know anyone in law enforcement ask them what they were like before they got into law enforcement and what they were like after.... its a whole different mind change.. other animal trainers will tell you the same thing...
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 7:21 am:
Perhaps Irish horses are different... I have to say that Melissa's and Cindy's descriptions do not fit the type of horses I deal with (Irish TBs and Irish sport horses) or the behaviour I observe.
The same herd might run a mile from a bulldozer one day and knock me over if I were in the way.
Another day they might stand and face it or show interest and if it were not moving, chew it, resulting in a claim on me for loads of dosh from the bulldozer owner... Or they might run away but this time also remember I am not to be messed with, and run around me on their route to escape.
Expect the unexpected and try to plan for it - that is what safety is all about.
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 8:11 am:
You may be right about Irish horses being different! Good advice about expecting the unexpected.
When horses are at liberty: It's important to know how to make yourself look BIG. A friend was standing still when her mare ran past and let out a big yahoo buck. She landed in the hospital. If she had outstretched her arms above and out, making her look bigger, she might have communicated to the horse not to mess with her.
When leading a horse: Always try to position yourself between the scary object (think ahead) and your horse. That way, if they jump trying to avoid it, they will not jump towards you.
Other than observation (my horses are only in a herd of two), can anyone recommend a clear and concise book regarding horse leadership and social interactions? Most books touch upon it a bit, but are too superficial. Then again, there's the topic of alpha leader and passive leader. (See https://www.markrashid.com/passive_leadership.htm
But then, that would be a whole other thread.)
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Member:
Zarr
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Posted on Saturday, Nov 18, 2006 - 6:01 pm:
Thank you for the link dove2 as you can tell passive leadership is what I have being doing with my herd of 4 plus the 26 others 2 donkeys ,1 mule)that I help take care of at a farm of throw aways of all breeds and personalites.I have broken more horse trainer rules than I know but it has worked for me BECAUSE of what Mark Rashid teaches.Will go to another of his clinics this spring and learn again.Melissa our mustang came with so many built in skills that you don't see in domestic horses he has been a wonderful experience.He learns even when you think he is at the other end of pasture munching grass!Have been working a young foxtrotter and now Whiskey can gait????!!Think maybe it is all about presentation but if we are consistent horses can work with all of us!That is their magic and gift to us! Cindy
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Member:
Starda01
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 6:08 pm:
There is nothing like walking hots at the track to teach you how to lead and control a horse, and maintain your personal space, keep that bundle of energy from running off with you, and deflect the nips from other horses sticking their heads out of their stalls, while you are walking around the sheDrOw.
I think the summer I spent doing that taught me some lessons that have stayed with me all my life. I find that if the horse is following you on the leadline, it soon becomes a battle of tug o'war, as they stop to graze, you have to haul on the rope to get their head up and moving again. I see to many kids fighting with horses and ponies like that. Since the horses and ponies are alot stronger than they are, inevitably the kid loses. Take the same pony and the same kid and have them hold the lead correctly and lead at the shoulder, they are able to stop the pony from ducking its head for a nibble before he gets started.
Just my 2 cents!
Sara
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Sunday, Nov 19, 2006 - 7:28 pm:
OK, so now I want to challenge the shoulder to shoulder leading theory. My daughter and I had the good fortune recently to ride Fresians. They're so big, that the trainer suggested when leading, always lead with your shoulder next to their head. Otherwise, their feet are so big they might just inadvertently step on your foot. That makes me wonder if a general leading position is better somewhere at head to neck, rather than shoulder.
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 2:37 am:
It's easier to persuade a horse to move forward if you stand at the shoulder (because you can use your outside hand/whip behind you if needed). Also I wouldn't try the Friesian trick if the horse in question is a biter...
I'd just stand slightly further away from a large horse to avoid this.
(says Imogen with a double-size broken toe since the past 3 weeks, got trodden on in the stable, my fault, I was overtired and not paying attention when I should have been!)
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 6:12 am:
Sorry to hear that, Imogen. Hope you're back dancing soon.
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Member:
Erika
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 9:05 am:
Sara, I was thinking along your lines when I read your post.
I think its okay to lead a trained horse or one that trusts you any way that works for you. But yeah, kids from the track, and their ilk, don't have a lot of herd training. They don't necessarily know whom to respect.
I personally would rather be next to the shoulder. I can see the head should it swing my way for a bite, and I think it is easier to get out of the way if the horse steps sideways than if I am right in front of it. Usually their shoulder will bump you before the foot comes down that way.
Just personal preference. Again, I learned from my Morgan gentleman that any horse can be unpredictable (anyone who thinks he is not fully trained or respecting is welcome to come play with him. I think you will agree that he is as trustworthy as they come, yet he will thread a needle to get away from a big mean mare's teeth!)
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 12:22 pm:
I really like this discussion! There are many different points of view, some of them complete opposites, yet we are able to debate it pleasantly.
Dove2, there's a book out there called "The Body Language of Horses" that I found very intriguing and informative when I started thinking about social interaction amongst horses, and how we need to interact with them.
As Melissa said, we cannot expect horses to think like us. In fact, it is impossible for them to do so. They are prey animals, we are predators. Prey animals can never think like a predator. So, it's our job, when we interact with a horse, to understand the how a horse thinks, and to think like them.
And, as far as the biting when being led, I believe that goes back to the horse having no respect for the person at the end of the leaDrOpe. In a herd situation, if any horse bites the lead horse, they better be prepared for the consequences (a bite back, a kick, or whatever it takes). That would not be tolerated, and it shouldn't be tolerated by a person either.
My mare was a perfect example of a submissive horse with no respect. She would tolerate most things, but would give indications of her real attitude, pinning her ears, being balky, swishing her tail. She was telling me exactly how she felt, but I didn't know how to read it, and when she felt she had no other choice, or she had had enough, out came the teeth and the feet. It was a hard lesson for me to learn, but once I understood the difference between submission and respect, and understood how to interact with my horse, I was very quickly able to work through our problems, and she's a lot better horse for it.
Nicole
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 1:11 pm:
Thanks, Nicole. I hope this is not too off topic, but my daughter's 4 yr old mare pins her ears constantly. She doesn't scare anyone with it, though; neither horse nor human. It's all for show now. She stopped turning her butt and threatening to bit - we put a stop to that immediately. But the ears: I think it's just become a habit from her 6 previous owners/environments. So how do you get her to stop pinning her ears? So far, I've been giving her a dirty look back and telling her to "stop that." Can't say that's helping though. What did you do?
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 4:09 pm:
Okay, so I did a test. We have a co-op type situation a the boarding facility I board at during the winter and so we all share feeding/watering and clean up. I feed/water and bring in 30 horses every Thursday and Friday evenings. Some horses are easy as pie others are sour as lemons. I lead some on my right side about 2 feet away or so and some behind me. Well, an older fellow named Chaz, bit my arm just below my shoulder. I was leading him on my side and a very large older guy hit me in my back with his head, very hard. I lead him with him about 4 feet of lead behind me. Most others did just fine. So I think there is a certain amount of risk with both!
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Member:
Tangoh
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 4:14 pm:
I think you're right Patricia. I don't think there is one absolute 'best way' just like there's no one absolute 'best method' for anything. A lot of different things work for different situations and temperments. I think it's up to us as owners to figure out what works best for our horses and our own safety.
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 5:31 pm:
Dove2, what are you doing with the mare when she pins her ears? Are you brushing her, saddling her, walking up to her, riding her, lunging her, or......? Turning her butt to you is a HUGE sign of disrespect, and even though you nipped that in the bud, she still may hold some resentment towards you, that's coming through with the ear pinning.
With my mare, she was balky when riding, especially in an arena, or when we were alone. She would pin her ears when I'd ask her to move out, she'd get real light on her front feet, as if to rear. On the lunge line, she would pin her ears and turn her head towards me when I asked her to do anything. If I persisted she would charge at me, teeth bared, then rear up, and strike. Although she never did get me with her teeth, or hit me with a foot, she did knock me down once by bumping into me with her shoulder. That was my breaking point. I had owned her for a year at that point, and just couldn't understand what I was doing wrong. So, I sat there on the ground and cried for a while. Eventually, I picked myself up, put her away (I know, bad thing to do) and hit the books and the internet. (Note: she came to me with this problem, the previous owner warned me about it, and said they had tried several things to try to "fix" her.)
The first thing I did was rule out pain as the cause. With that ruled out, I turned to it being a behavioral issue. It doesn't sound like your mare is as bad as mine was, but here's what I did. First, I established my personal space. Because she was so disrespectful and offensive, my personal space was 6 feet all the way around me. If she came into that space, I did whatever I had to do to get her out of it. For my mare, ANYTHING she did that was disrespectful received a reprimand. When she pinned her ears, and tilted her head towards me (when lunging), I made her back up. Also, keep in mind, this was while she was at a walk, if asked to go any faster, she'd just attack. I backed her up 4 or 5 steps, stopped her, and made her keep her focus on me, both eyes looking at me, until she showed any sign of relaxing When she relaxed, I'd let her come towards me a little (the reward), and then ask for a lunge again. Believe me, it took about a month of consistent work before I saw a break through. She is one stoic horse, and stubborn as all get out too, hehe. Have you ever read or seen any of Clinton Anderson's work? Well, I used ALOT of his method when turning this horse around, because he lays it all out there in layman's terms. It's very organized, and it makes sense.
Wow, sorry for such a long post. I didn't go into a lot of detail about the things I do to gain respect, so if you'd like to hear more, just let me know. :0)
Nicole
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 5:35 pm:
Patricia, may I ask what your reactions were when the horse bit you, and when the horse shoved you with his head?
Thanks,
Nicole
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Member:
Leilani
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 6:47 pm:
Nicole,
I would love to read about all that you did you gain respect from your mare. Please email me. Thank
you. Leilani
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Member:
Dove2
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 8:00 pm:
I would love to read all about Nicole's solutions too! Please post more.
Dove2, what are you doing with the mare when she pins her ears? Are you brushing her, saddling her, walking up to her, riding her, lunging her, or......?
Actually, she pins her ears if you just walk by when she's eating. She used to turn her butt if you walked into her stall or near her hay, but she's stopped doing that now; it was unacceptable. She's very submissive to humans and other horses, so I sorta think this is her only defense mechanism from the past. Sometimes, she'll pin her ears when I groom her, but then again, she's oftentimes eating at the time. She likes grooming, and she'll lift her foot for cleaning the second you enter her stall. She always comes up to us as soon as we enter her pasture. As soon as she realizes she's not going to intimidate you, she's as passive as they come. She's really a very sweet mare, so I really think this is all from past preservation issues. But it makes her look ugly, and she really isn't.
I can't think of a way to make it unpleasant for her when her ears are pinned other than to sound "put out". So I say "stop that!" and then smile and rub her when her ears come up. Anything else I can do?
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Monday, Nov 20, 2006 - 9:24 pm:
Well Nicole, they aren't my horses so I only did what I thought at the moment. I turned to Chaz really fast, stopped and backed him and stood for about two minutes. He knew that his dinner was waiting so I made him wait. Joe, who is huge and very pushy I did basically the same except he wouldn't stand so I walked him in circles.
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 9:55 am:
Okay, I'll write it up and get it posted today.
Patricia, I was just curious, I know everyone reacts differently. :0)
Nicole
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 1:38 pm:
Sorry, did I sound miffed? I wasn't. I tell you with Chaz I wanted to bite him back..he's a regular biter!
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 2:17 pm:
Leading two horses or more at the same time is different anyway I think cos you need to have some knowledge of their temperaments to work out best positioning, who will "lead" happily while two others tail along behind etc...
I don't think horses can understand "I'm making your wait for your dinner" type messages myself. Recently in Ireland there has been quite an influx of eastern Europeans working with horses. This has been interesting as quite a few will try "horse bad today so I no feed him, then good tomorrow!" tactics. Clearly Polish horses are also different to Irish horses! (0nly joking...)
It doesn't seem to work too well unless the poor horse is in sufficiently bad condition to be weakened by the lack of one feed but maybe I'm just blinkered by tradition. What do others think? It seems to me to require a greater power of reasoning and association than I've observed in most horses.
Imogen
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 2:25 pm:
Okay, here it is. I've broken it up into three posts because if anyone else is like me, when I read a long post, about mid way, my eyes start to glaze over, and I begin to wonder if it's ever going to end. LOL
So, Part 1:
First, a bit of history. I bought Roheryn from a lady who is a very big barrel racer. She had had her for four years. She was trained for barrels, and was very quick going around the barrels, but as time went by, she started refusing to run. She wouldn’t put her heart into it, she didn’t like it. So, I believe when she stopped trying, the lady tried to MAKE her run, by chasing her around in a roundpen, and on a lungeline. It got to the point however, that she learned that if she fought back, that person would put her up. When I bought her, I was told that she didn’t like to be “schooled”, but they didn’t elaborate on what exactly that meant, but she had a kind eye, and was what I was looking for as far as size, general temperament, age, health and price.
I generally don’t do a lot of lunging with my horses, but I do like putting them on a circle to warm them up, or to find out what side of the corral they woke up on. Anyway, at first I noticed she’d kinda pin her ears, and clinch her jaw, and swing her head towards me. It progressed from that to rearing up at the end of the lunge line. And from there, it was a full on attack.
It took me about a year and a half to figure out how to deal with this horse. Up until then, I was walking on eggshells, and was frustrated with her attitude towards me. She would paw the ground when I brushed her, she was balky when I rode her, she wouldn’t go anywhere alone, and walked around all the time, even in the paddock, like she was pissed off at the world. As I said in my earlier post, my breaking point was when she knocked me down. I knew that if I didn’t do something, I was going to get hurt.
(........continued in next post)
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 2:27 pm:
Part 2:
One of the hardest things I had to learn was to get assertive with her, and realize that there is physically nothing I can do with my hands and or body that could hurt any horse (as long as I stayed away from their face). It was a true light bulb moment. I may be offending some people now, but think of it this way. In a herd situation, when one horse kicks another horse, they usually use full force, they don’t lightly tap, and then say oh, I’m sorry, I’m sorry, poor horsey. No, they wail away, to get the response they want. Even with a handy stick or a lunge whip, aside from taking a 2x4 to her head, there is absolutely no way I can equal the force of a kick from another horse. Another thing, horses are in a completely different weight division that we are. If we run into full force into their side, they’d look at us like we were nuts. However, if they were to run into us, we’d probably end up in the hospital. I was one of those people who was afraid to hurt my horse, afraid to smack them, or hit them, or be assertive at all. And that was why she was literally walking all over me. And don’t get me wrong, I don’t go out there and beat them up, just to beat them up. I try to mimic their “language” when I’m around them, and treat them like horses.
Anyway, I digress. So, when I had all the resources I needed to work with her, this is what I did. The very first thing she learned was to stay out of my bubble, which was about four to six feet all the way around me. Then I taught her to back up with just the shake of the lead rope. Next I taught her how to move off left and right with the point of my finger. Then, when walking on a circle, as soon as she gave ANY indication of being mad (ears back, jaw clinched, wrinkled nose, head turned toward me, etc.) I would pop the lead rope, make her face me, back her up four or five steps, and then make her stand with both eyes on me until she relaxed. I got pretty aggressive with it too, swinging the whip in front of her, making her really move her feet, making sure she knew I was serious. When I let her stop, she had to keep my attention on me until she relaxed. This was hard for her, because she was so defiant. When she looked around, or took her attention off me, I’d pop the lead rope, and get her attention. When she looked like she was starting to relax, then I’d relax to take the pressure off, and ask for a direction again.
(.......continued in next post)
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 2:28 pm:
Part 3:
She did try attacking a few times, and at that point all bets were off. And I’ll admit, it did take a couple of whacks across the nose with the lunge whip to keep her off of me, and to get her attention. I did this routine for about a month before I saw a break through. It was like I could see her eye get soft, and in that moment, I knew I had her respect. After that, she would still have bad days, but as long as I stayed consistent, and stayed strict with her, she would eventually give up. In the second month, I was doing walk / trot transitions. And after six months, I had her in side-reins, and going over cavallettis. Then, this last summer, we started doing cantering on the lunge line. :0)
You know, in the beginning, she would tolerate me on her back, but it was only after I got through to her, and gained her respect, that I really had a good riding horse. I can now lunge her without a whip the majority of the time, and she’s relaxed the whole time. I can take her on trail rides alone, and even when we are with other horses, she has no problems leaving them. I don’t have to be as strict anymore, and she it’s rare these days that she needs a reminder from a lunge whip, or the pop of the lead rope. The only thing I haven’t really done with her yet is ride her extensively in an arena. I’m sure she would be fine, though, because she trusts me, but I think I hate arena work just as much as she does. :0) We both like being on an open trail, with views of wide open spaces, trees, and the mountains.
Anyway, that’s my story. More like a novel. LOL It is amazing the things we can learn from these creatures, we just have to open our minds to receive it and then take that knowledge and apply it. :0)
Thanks for reading!
Nicole
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 2:37 pm:
Patricia, I totally didn't think you were miffed. I know how you feel about biters, and how you really can't do anything because they are not your horse.
Imogen, around here there are some who will hold food back from their horse in order to get a correct response. The most popular is when trying to teach them to load. Some are adament, that if the horse won't get in the trailer, to start feeding him in it. If he won't get in it to eat, then he doesn't eat. I think so much can go wrong inside a horse by doing that, and to me, it's not worth it to risk it.
I have done what Patricia did with one of the horses she was bringing in. If they get pushy going towards the barn because they know they are going in to eat, I'll make them do circles, or side passes, or back up, or yielding exercises, something to take their mind off of "Gotta eat, gotta eat, and anything that gets in my way will get mowed over." With the two I have right now, sometimes I'll put haw out in a pile and then stand by it, and make them stand like 10 feet away from me for a couple of minutes. I think it reaffirms that I'm the leader, and they will be able to eat, when I let them eat. Does that make sense?
Nicole
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 6:33 pm:
Imogen, I wasn't leading them at the same time and their behavior stemmed from being impatient for their hay which they know is in their stalls. I believe you have to stop what their doing at the moment they "misbehave" or it is futile. It wasn't meant that their food was the punishment but rather the immediate response to what is unacceptable leads them to do something they don't really want to do, as a "punishment" so to speak.
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Member:
Amara
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 10:13 am:
nicole
sounds like you have done a great job with your mare coming from a very difficult background.. congrats are in order!..
we do things fairly similar, with some differences...
as far as the eating, think about how a natural herd works...
like you mentioned earlier, you have a personal bubble, so does your horse... anything within that bubble is yours, and unless invited, the horse should not enter, or do anything to "your stuff" within that bubble... this is especially true for food,as prey animals use food in their pecking order...
with predator animals - humans, dogs, wolves, etc.. the leader gives food to the lesser animals to establish its place as leader...
with prey animals its exactly opposite.. the leader hoards the food within its space, and may well move another horse away from food to continue to establish dominance over that horse.. in a horse's mind, if they are allowed to eat food within another horse's space, or able to move another horse away from their chosen food, then they take another step in establishing themselves as dominant over that horse....
lead horses eat alone (exceptions being young horses and favored horses (i.e. mares in heat can eat in a stallion's space))...the only time another horse is allowed to eat at "his spot" is when he has left it...
so when you feed your horses and you stand at "your hay" and make them wait until you are done with it, you're establishing a leadership position in their eyes...
every time i feed my horses wait at the correct distance - patiently - until i am "done" with "my food"... i never hand feed, as i would in a sense be giving up my food in my personal space to another horse that i need to be the leader to... creates confusion in the horse's mind as to who is actually in charge.. i'm never mnugged for feed or even have to remotely be worried about being run over... this is not something that i taught them.. its a reflexive action that they cant help but follow... like that knee jerk reaction when your doctor tests your reflexes with that little hammer thingy (that's the technical term!)(*LOL*)
without any food rewards my horses come to me when i call - usually when they see me - and will wilingly leave their food (including their grain) to follow me somewhere - without my ever using a rope or halter (and one of these being a horse that i needed 5 hours just to get next to the first day i worked with him)
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 1:55 pm:
Thank you, Melissa. :0) I am really happy that I was able to get a hold of Roheryn, and was able to understand what she was going through, and fix it, before someone else bought her, and she ended up killing someone, killing herself, or at the killers.
That is exactly my on thoughts on feeding horses! Very well said!
Nicole
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Member:
Imogen
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 5:54 pm:
Thanks for clarifying Patricia and I agree about instant correction - now what I don't understand is why you are leading thirty horses one by one? It must take ages. Are they all hot in temperament or is there a problem gate or something?
All the best
Imogen
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Member:
Boomer
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Posted on Friday, Nov 24, 2006 - 3:49 pm:
They are in 30 different paddocks. They are not in together so it works out that way. It takes me about 1 hour to bring them in. No, there is only three that are challenging. Two mares and one paint gelding. He's the biter, the other two are mother and daughter and they are both always hyped up. They are a nightmare for me and everyone else the other nights..
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