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Posted on Friday, Sep 17, 1999 - 10:02 pm:

Greetings all. In an effort to become closer to my mare (and ultimately, to get her to work with me willingly all of the time), I've been looking into some various training programs to see which would suit my situation. I came across an article about the "Parelli" system of training, and was very impressed with the results they seem to have with horses. Does anyone know about the program and its effectiveness? I'd hate to invest time and money in something that I'm not sure will work for me. Thanks all!
Dawn

Posted on Saturday, Sep 18, 1999 - 1:16 am:

I have several friends who use the Perrelli
methods. I have read and watched his videos and
thought they cover things that are important to
me: ie non abuseive methods. I personally don't
use his stuf only because I am not that
coordinated with a 20 foot lead line. I have a
round pen and prefer John Lyon's methods. I am not
real fond of Monty Roberts (lots of diffrent
reasons). All in all the only way to know if it
works wether it is Perrelli, Lyons, Roberts, or
Tellington-Jones is to experiment
-Emily

Posted on Sunday, Sep 19, 1999 - 9:42 am:

Step Up

I appreciate the ideas behind Parelli's training methods as well as Monty Roberts.
Sorry emily I have not seen any of John Lyons, so if you got some good info let me know.

The experiments and analysis I have done of Both their methods show a methology that works but is based on invalid reasoning.

Some of the games that horse play with each other are keep away with the water source. Once the horse starts to get worked up they start putting their head down and licking their lips, this is purely a sign of thirst not a definition of submission. Sure if the horse can't get to water they have to try another line of thinking. But they can go on for quite some time just prancing around being a horse.
Someone on here was complaining that their horse would follow all the steps upto the point of licking lips, but would not go any further in the signs of submission, just because the horse decided, Not today thanks.

The best advice I can give is to look at the program that is closest to what you want to achieve, but to sit back every now and then and look at what you are doing and say how can I improve upon this for my horse.

There is no such thing as the Ultimate solution to horse training. I tell people how I have a lovely 17 year old mare that is perfect under saddle and bit and even better bare back and halter. They ask how many years did it take for her to learn all that. Less than one and she was barely handled let alone broken in until 16. She has gone from a wild horse to a happy horse that is collected and learning all sorts of leg aids.

These people say to me you can't train an old horse, you have to start them young otherwise they can't learn, I think it is more that the person training can't learn. They want to know how I acheived the impossible, I just didn't know it was supposed to be impossible :-)

We have a gentleman in Australia that trains horses on cattle station up far north. I don't know his methods but his results are way above Parelli and Monty roberts. He can controll 3 horses at 100 meters by voice and body language alone. No Whips no ropes, nothin If a horse doesn't get it right first time he accepts that the horse tried and he starts again to make sure the horse understands the timing. He rides no hands bareback and can still get a horse to do flying changes at each step, slidings halts and balanced paces. I wish I could get to half his level, he has the complete trust of his horses, but they are still horses but soooo relaxed. They can even sleep in the middle of a crowd of 2000 people at a 50,000 people show.

Just always be gentle with your horse and watch for signs that she is trying to do her best.

Steps down of that damn soap box again :-)

Posted on Monday, Sep 20, 1999 - 12:41 am:

Darren-
John Lyons' like all the others has books & vidoes
out. I got a chance to attend a symposium when he
was still touring. I have to agree on the comment
about the methodoligy that works but makes no
sence. I have a particular intrest in the heard
symatics and I think that these trainers have
found things that play off the instint of the
horses and then assume that their "training" is a
break through in communication.I personally feel
that who ever methods are used they need to abide
by the following rules: It must be safe for me. It
must be safe for the horse. You must esablish that
you are the heard boss in a non abusive manner.
The horse must show some measurable progress in a
reasonable time frame. It must set reasonable and
attainable goals. It must be repeatable with
another horse. As for Monty Roberts, Darren did
you catch the write up that was done about him
when they tried to varify the statements in his
book, ouch,it wasen't very flattering to him. OK
equil share time on the soap box...
Emily

Posted on Monday, Sep 20, 1999 - 7:33 am:

Hi Darren and Emily. Thank you for your input. I definitely agree with you that gentleness is key to successful training. I find my mare will respond with a greater degree of compliance when I praise her whenever she performs the desired behavior. On the ground, she's spectacular, but under saddle it's obvious that she still doesn't fully trust me...it's as though she has what I find my fiance to suffer from: selective hearing. If something sets her off or spooks her, she will not listen to me at all; nothing I do will calm her down. On the ground, I'm definitely head of the herd...but I'm unsuccessful in becoming a true "boss" whilst on her back. She's rather high strung naturally, and I've gotten her tocalm down to a point but it really boils down to a lack of complete trust and I've tried a number of tactics to gain it. Since Parelli (and Lyons for that matter) bases the philosophy on gaining trust I thought I might give it a try. I'd like to find someone who has used it to see the type of success they achieved. Thanks again guys! I'll have to keep looking. ;O)

Posted on Monday, Sep 20, 1999 - 11:42 am:

Emily, I also have an interest in learning Herd behaviour, a lot of my tests show that horses have more of a Mob mentality. Where they work as singles or pairs when they encounter an unusual situation. They also come to the conclusion that you can't get all of them so therefore they are hoping you will catch any of the others.

This takes a bit of planning and logic to sort out the known risks from the unknown risks, then work together to achieve a goal.

Dawn, Since you have such a good ground base, you may find clicker training more to your needs. I have not used it myself, but the principle is simple (which helps). whenever you praise your horse on the ground you click a loud pen or some small object that can be used to make a clear and distinct noise.
You can review what you want her to do on the ground and use the clicker to emphasise her praise, this gives her a goal to achieve, a click is a precisely repeatable reward. Then from the saddle you should be able to repeat the work and get her to work toward her click of reward.

To get her to realise that the click is her signal of a job well done, you might have to start back at some simple exercises then work onwards, if she understands the meaning of the click she should be more settled to try and achieve a click.

The reason that this system works is that horses like consistancy, If you pat or praise the horse, you generally don't move at the same speed or touch the same area. The click is always the same.

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 1999 - 12:39 pm:

Darren,
Good point the only thing I would add is that if you decide to go the route of the clicker realize that if you make that noise the que than you must always have that clicker with you to get the response. My suggestion would be to use clicker method just with the noise maker God gave you and the one you won't ever leave behind, your voice. The horse dosen't care what the cue is, a click, a touch, a clearly spoken word. They learn it just the same with clear reppition and reinforcement.

Next point, Repitition, I read somewhere that it takes like 20,000 repititions for them to learn a que to the point that it becomes an automatic repsonse. If you use a clear word for a que to calm down you really need to work on it alot, and that is from personal experience with a mare that was so spooky that she busted 2 helmets, dislocated my arm, and broke my foot all on seperate occasions. I finally got tired of that crap and got it through her heard that when I gave her the cue she was to 1. FREEZE, don't move a muscle 2. wait for further instructions. I did that by enlisting the help of a friend who would cause a minor camotion outside the round pen that would startle her, but not to the point of panic, I would give her the que, and the instant she responded my friend would make the boogie man go away. as she got quicker and more consistant we turned the heat up with bigger boogie men that stayed longer.

You can get through that flight instinct, and when you do they trust you because YOU are saveing THEM from the things that are going to eat them. My mare finally got to the point that If I was in view she would start to investigate things that would have sent her through a fence before. She fgures that if I'm not scared then there is no reason for her to be. She trusts my judgement because I never let her down the 20,000 times before. Trust comes with consistancey, they are good judges of charecter and know if you lie to them or don't keep your promises.
-Emily

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 1999 - 12:46 pm:

Darren- If you like that herd stuff I HIGHLY reccomend "The Naure of Horse" by Dr. Stephen Budinsky. This is a truely amazing book that goes through the evolutionary development of equids, heard symatics, and so much more. Definatly a personal liabrary must!

Posted on Tuesday, Sep 21, 1999 - 10:50 pm:

Cool I will have a look at that book.

I haven't broken anything yet but I have a mare like that, she has ripped her legs apart three times now doing stupid things. It is harder to get her to learn anything as she was nearly hit by lightning and could not properly for a year of foalhood.

She is very warped in the head, but I have her to the point that if I am not afraid then it can't be too bad, and if she wants to run away I am strong enough to hold her still. So she consludes it is best to stay quiet and watch.
She still sees me as one of the herd, sure I walk on two legs, but I am to be walked over if possible. One rung up the ladder.

The rest accept that I live with them but I am not a horse, they come running to me to fix things that they can not do.

Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2000 - 5:12 pm:

Hi, first time posting here. I have read some things about clicker training, and have one question, if you use clicker training and decide to show, you aren't able to "click" to let the horse know that they did what you want them to so how do you let them know they did it right, but at the same time keep your professionalism and not get counted down for the praise given to the horse?

Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2000 - 10:09 pm:

As with any praise (sugar cubes, pats, verbal praise, clicker), it is more important while schooling to reinforce a desired behavior than it is in the show ring. Confirmed behaviors--those which the horse knows for certain, no ifs ands or buts, that he has done correctly, don't require "reassurance."

You can "teach" with clickers, or whatever other method you like, yet remain silent in the show ring without him wondering. Just be sure to let him know what a good boy he is after you exit the ring.
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