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Discussion on Will jogging use back?
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 9:29 am:
Novice question, In English riding I was taught that when horse trots up, the back feet track in the prints(or ahead) of the front feet it is only then that the horse will develop a loose swinging back. This looseness is evidenced by a swinging tail.
I am sure I have seen western horses with very relaxed looking swinging tails yet they are not even close to tracking up.
Perhaps someone who understands the gaits better than I do can help me understand. Thanks.
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 1:05 pm:
I think in order to get the loose swinging back, the horse has to be relaxed and comfortable in that gait. A relaxed horse will usually have it's head about level with it's withers, and it's back will be nice and rounded.
I don't know about the tracking up, but I have one horse that has a really long back, so he can't track up at the trot, his legs just aren't long enough. :0)
Nicole
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 3:27 pm:
Nicole,
I have to disagree with you about a relaxed horses head being level with their withers. In upper level dressage there is a higher degree of collection, which brings the head far above the height of the withers. A well schooled horse that is properly collected will also have a soft swinging back and tail. A true and proper collection cannot come without the horse being relaxed. From this we get the brilliant movements.
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Tuesday, Nov 21, 2006 - 4:05 pm:
Hi Hally, I don't know that much about dressage, and so couldn't comment on the collection and relaxation, but all of the upper level dressage horses I've seen, when they are working in the ring, and rider has them collected, their heads do seem alot higher, but when the horse is done with its test, and it is being ridden loose reined out of the ring, seems like most of them have their heads really low, their nose way out, and are really walking out.
For my horses, they are comfortable and relaxed at a trot when their head/neck is about level with their withers. This seems to allow them to round their back, and get in under themselves with their hind end.
Nicole
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 10:28 am:
Different disciplines.However in the end we all want the same. An engaged and forward moving horse, soft in the bridle, letting us sit on them by giving us a round and swinging back. A happy and relaxed horse should be the goal for all of us, be it a cutting horse, a dressage horse or just a pleasure horse.
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Member:
Stevens
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 11:15 am:
A relaxed horse,not under direct influence of the rider's aids, is going to naturally hold his head where it is most comfortable for him. Depending on his confirmation, it may be higher or lower. They're individuals too.
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 12:02 pm:
Chris I dont think I totally agree with you on that one. Probably given their personal choice no horse would go on the bit, but would rather hold their heads much like they would while out in the pasture. You dont see to many horses at liberty collected. At least not for any length of time. Again depending on the discipline, different head carriages are required. And proper collection (not just sucking a horses head in, but the energy coming from the back engine)should be a happy and relaxed animal. Obviously going in a western pleasure class doesnt require a high degree of collection, where a horse going at a higher level in dressage does. Done correctly they are all happy!
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Member:
Tuckern
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 1:50 pm:
Okay, my turn to disagree :0) Western pleasure most certainly does require collection. I think what we are disagreeing on is our definition of collection.
To me, collection does not mean a head tucked nearly to it's chest with taunt reins from hand to bit (I guess that's "working on the bit", correct?). Collection is the ability of the horse to carry more weight on it's hind end, thus working off the hind end. The horse rounds his back, and gets in under himself.
My horses are taught to stay "collected" while on a loose rein. Meaning, they round their back, and work off their hind end (and mine carry their heads and necks about level with their withers). I think that's more the western way than the english way, and they are obviously very different. :0)
And I think we've gotten way off subject from Lori's original post, lol. Sorry about that Lori.
Nicole
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 4:28 pm:
I know on the bit does not mean nose to chest... Can someone give us a proper definition of on the bit? I'd probably do a miserable job..
My horse is just coming back from rehab... He is now back swinging, head slightly in front of the verticle, just above the wither, using the muscle from poll to shoulder nicely, and he has foam between his hind legs. He has a good rhythm and even tempo. Together these lead me to believe that if he's doing this at a slow trot or a working trot, he is using his back and perhaps strengthening his topline...I hope.
If I'm incorrect, please correct me 
I too believe a swinging back is only possible if the horse is working back to front.
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Member:
Warwick
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 5:03 pm:
I just flipped through Walter Zettl's book 'Dressage in Harmony' to get his definition as I figured since some of these threads can get a tad heated and I'm not going there, it might be best to quote directly from a recognized master. Here is Herr Zettl's definition of "On the Bit":
A horse on the bit is one that is connected in the circle of energy from the hind leg to seat and back. Riding a horse on the bit means driving the horse from behind, forward into a soft contact with the rider's hands. Therefore, it is essential that a definite connection exist between the hands of the rider and the horse's mouth. This we call the contact. The softness of this contact comes from the suppleness in the horse's poll.
When the horse is on the bit, the poll should be the highest point in the horse's silhouette, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. The degree of flexion in the poll of the horse depends on the gait, the pace, and the level of training, and is different in each situation. When the horse stretches his neck as the rider lengthens the reins, the horse should maintain contact with the rider's hands.
To be stiff in the poll, the horse uses the muscles in his neck as one against the other in a strong tension. The rider's job is to encourage him to release this tension and relax these muscles. They are not like stiff leather that can be softened by flexing them back and forth until they "break down." There must be a willing "letting go" of this tension that can only come through relaxation. To release the tension in the poll and get the hose even on both reins is one of the most important goals in all riding. This is the only way to achieve a straight, supple, balanced horse whose back swings.
After relaxation, the second ingredient is a quiet hand.
And here is his definition of "Collection":
Hidden in the German word for collection - Versammlung - is the term meaning "gather up." What does the rider gather up in collection of the horse? Energy. Energy is necessary for the upper levels in dressage. And where is the energy gathered up? In the hindquarters of the horse, in his motor.
The movement of the horse becomes more expressive when the rider's aids are able to tape the source of energy in the hindquarters.
Collection is the highest level of dressage. The horse carries increased weight on well-flexed and active hind legs. This in turn promotes the elevation of the forehand and the lightest possible rein contact.
Hope these quotes are of help and I will now bow out.
Cheers
Sue
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Member:
Sunny66
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 7:17 pm:
LOL, thank you Sue
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Member:
Hally
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Posted on Wednesday, Nov 22, 2006 - 8:53 pm:
Thank you Sue. So well said. Isnt Walter Zettl amazing! He came here once and I think you could have heard a pin DrOp the whole weekend of the clinic. Anyway Lorri the most important thing is to just have fun at what ever level you are riding.
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Member:
Ajudson1
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Posted on Thursday, Nov 23, 2006 - 9:03 am:
Thank you Nicole from a Western Rider, I had the same thoughts, and thank you Sue for those wonderful definitions straight from a master's mouth!
I have a wonderful gelding who is very free moving, with the back swinging and nice gaits. I am so worried about screwing his movement up as I advance his training.
I see there is another book to buy and study, grin.
Great, non-heated discussion!
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Member:
Maggienm
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Posted on Friday, Nov 24, 2006 - 10:32 pm:
Walter Z. is wonderful. In my search for an answer to the swinging back I have found a concenses that until a horse tracks up he doesn't use his back fully properly. This is a really condensed version, it has too do with how stepping under uses the loins, rounds, this starts to take weight which allows the back to relax and swing.
Sorry, I know that wasn't a great explanation.
But I think I understand it better now.
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