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  Discussion on Anyone have tips for a bowlegged rider?
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Member:
Lisam

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 12:57 am:

After a few years of long easy trail rides as my mare recovered from an injury, I am again looking to connect with an instructor and get my seat back (and from that, my hands back). But boy do I have far to go. My instructor teaches the classical seat and tells me to let my leg drape from a neutral pelvis. The problem is, I am bowlegged. My calf bones curve out and have no contact with the horse if just "draped." If I try to bring them into contact, I get pinched knees and have to use muscular effort, which stiffens and contracts my legs all the way up to the hips. Trying to "loosen my knees" from that position just leaves me perched.

Every book I've looked at with an anatomic approach to riding has not been helpful, because all of those riders have normal straight legs. Has any one here gained any insights (from riding, teaching, reading, any source at all!) into achieving classical alignment and contact with bowed legs?

Lisa
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 8:10 am:

Lisa,
Sure you don't want to switch over to western riding? ;-) After years of "hugging" horses with their legs, cowboys have been accused of being bowlegged . . . and I don't think it ruined their effectivenes on horseback.
Are you riding your own horse for lessons?
Is there anything you can "stuff" in your boots along the inside of your calf so you can have more contact?
I believe you should ride the way it is most comfortable for you and your horse. Don't make riding a frustrating or painful experience. Once you have your balace and seat, use what you have to train your horse to do the movements for which you are asking. You can teach your horse to move off of the cues you are able to give, and if your cues have to come more from your heels or from whatever part of your leg touches the horse, then sobeit.
Please don't put yourself into contortions. I used to spend hours standing with my toes IN so I could be more bowlegged and ride with my toes directly forward in the stirrup (which was the style of the day) . . . and then, years later, I was told that it was acceptable to ride with my toes turned out from the horse a bit and the back "inside" of my calves against the horse, and I felt cheated . . .
Do what works for you and your horse, and enjoy every ride.
Member:
Ajudson1

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 9:46 am:

Lisa,

I am not bowlegged, but I am very fussy how my stirrups are. Not too short, not too far forward; and I change my stirrups lengths constantly to find the "right" adjustment depending on which horse I am riding.

Something that may be of interest to you is just last night I read an article from https://horsecity.com called "Level your stirrups for a solid Foundation" by Wendy Murdoch. She says that most stirrups need to built up on the outside to get them level for your foot. She says you can do this just with cardboard, vet wrap and duct tape.

I wonder if in your case you would actually like them angled different? Do you walk more on the outside of your foot? Maybe level wouldn't be perfect for you?

I would think this would be a good starting point for you though, experiment with just the stirrup as it will be your foot position that affects your leg no matter what you are trying to do. Trust me on that one, I roll my foot in, and it screws up my leg, knee and lower back if I don't wear inserts in all my shoes and boots.

Anyhow, read the article because she does tell you how to use a plumb bob with a friends help to get things set correctly.

Let us know if it helps any!!

And, as Holly says, Ride Western, lol!!! (my only time in an English saddle was when visiting Holly, and I thought it stunk) But seriously, she is correct about being comfortable and doing what works for you, and your body type!
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 11:05 am:

i think Holly was right on and Lisa what good suggestions about the stirrup angle. I think I will try it myself.

When I was reading your post Lisa I was thinking about my own leg. One of my legs insists on being contrary. When I push it straight the rest of my leg goes awry.
I'm afraid I was even more radical and considered surgery to correct my riding defect. But the lack of monetary means adjusted my thinking....
Fortunately it is my outside leg that is misaligned so the coaches usually don't see it.
A couple of things that did help me was to ride bareback and see how my leg hung without leather in the way; also, I do rider specific exercises that stretch and loosen the muscles we need to have a correct seat; and I have accepted that one leg is always going to point the wrong way.
Since you have just got back to dressage type riding perhaps some of your muscles are a bit tight.
Just as you don't expect your horse to go right back to the same frame she was in before her injury, be patient with yourself and allow yourself to get back into the 'right shape' gradually.
have fun
the other
Member:
Amara

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 11:33 am:

when i taught i found a lot of riders who couldntget their leg to rest correctly next to the horse... if you "fixed" one part you onyl messed up another... until i went straight to the source and fixed it all the way up... when we sit on a horse and let our hip lookse our knee will naturally pop out and we need to physically close our leg, unless we shift our hip... i have not had to deal with anyone who was significantly bowlegged tho, so this may or may not help you...
when you sit on the horse think of opening and turning your upper hip-widen your butt so to speak, so that closer to the front of your thigh is in contact with the horse...you'll sit a little straighter on the horse and actually be able to easily and correctly find the 3 points of contact.. your inner knee will come right against the saddle witihout any pinching...and your lower leg will close against the horse...this also naturally brings the toes forward -for any of you who have had problems with getting your toes forward..no gimmicks or pinching/squeezing involved...
i have a slightly twisted hip from long standing back injury and have to extra consciously "shift" my hip on my right side to get it correct, but once their it will stay their on its own and i dont have to use any thought or energy at all to keep it their..

good luck
Member:
Liliana

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 12:50 pm:

Just something that works for me, make a fist and place it at the top of the stirrup leather and the stirrup end should fit in your armpit.

I learned that from an isnstructor a long time ago, but it sure tops the messing around with the leathers.
Member:
Erika

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 5:43 pm:

I was just thinking what you wrote, Melissa! I don't know if it will help you, Lisa, but I used to grab the back of my thigh and actually pull it to the outside so the inner and top of my thigh has more contact. Like Melissa says, it brings your knee in closer without having to resort to muscles. Now I can get the leg where I want it without using my hands, at least.
But also like Holly says, it made for a straight ahead foot, too, that is no longer in fashion. Can't have everything, I guess.
But the upper thigh thing does give you a deeper , more secure seat, in my opinion.
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 8:58 pm:

are you saying that toes forward is not critical anymore? Is taht why I see so many top riders in the magazines with their toes out just like mine?
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Saturday, Nov 25, 2006 - 9:38 pm:

That's what I was told, Lori . . . that my knees don't have to be on the horse, that my toes don't have to be pointed straight ahead, and that the inside back of my calves should be on the horse.
Member:
Lisam

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 1:12 pm:

Wow, you guys are great! Thanks so much for the input. I probably gave the wrong impression when I said that I am working for the classical alignment. I totally agree with all of you -- I want to do what is right for my body and my horse, not go into contortions to achieve some "correct" position (I am not trying to win ribbons, just to communicate well with my horse and move with her in balance and harmony -- that's really what I mean by "alignment"). Right now, my knee pinches, then my lower legs swing, my mare leaps forward, I lose my balance, get nervous, and pull on the reins . . . a bad scene. What I really want (don't we all!) is that secure lower foundation.

Melissa, I love the "widen the butt" idea. It makes a lot of sense in terms of opening the hip without forcing it. Lori, yes, definitely, I am tight and that is making things harder. I've actually just started doing some yoga to try to get some flexibility and grounding back (it was freaky how much the yoga teacher sounded like a Centered Riding instructor at my first class!).

Angie, I am a huge fan of Wendy Murdoch, and I was thinking that what I really need is a lesson with her! I did a clinic with her when I first bought my horse almost 7 years ago, and I swear that I would never have been able to keep my sensitive and eager mare if Wendy had not helped me establish control without strain. Thanks for telling me about that recent article! I may have to get her videos as a holiday present for myself.

Thanks again everyone (more input still welcome, of course!).

Lisa
Member:
Kthorse

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 1:33 pm:

all the above work and will help. I have a few things you could also try. First if your knees are pinching I was told to actually point your toes out and try and keep your ankle against your horse. This is an exaggeration. You do this until you don't grip any more and have better balance then you can drape your leg around the horse . Another idea from Centered riding is to pretend that your leg ends at your knee. Forget your lower half of leg. OK now that you only have legs to your knees stretch your knees down like you are trying to reach the ground with them this also stops pinching of the knees as it opens your thighs. Before you do the last one lift your legs completely off the horse to the side then relax this will help you get deep in the saddle before you stretch your knees down.
Hope these help with the above posts. good luck
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 6:49 pm:

A book, which was recently reviewed on this website, Secure Seat, gives the following advice.
Take your feet out of the stirrups, lift your legs and let them come down against the horse and stretch them down.
Now, you should be able to lift your toes and pickup your stirrups.
Another recommendation is to stand up in your stirrups. Use a handful of mane to hold on to to keep your balance. Then gently lower yourself back into the saddle. Quote( It is important to sit simply by bending the knees nad lowering the seat, with back straight and the hip angle still open.)
The idea is to be able to stand and then without changing anything in your position.
much harder than it sounds.
Have fun
Member:
Dove2

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 6:51 pm:

I can't help entering this conversation because I have been lucky enough to start some lessons with Wendy Murdoch this past week. She is totally amazing - and super nice too! The article you mentioned, Angie, was so timely because one of the first things she did when I got on my horse was to come over and twist my (western saddles') billets (inside the fender) so that my legs did not have to hold the twist. Then she built up the inside of my stirrups to level my foot. What a different feel that gave me, where now I could just rest my foot on the stirrup instead of trying to (unconsciously) hold them out. It also took off pressure on my knees and it made my knees feel like they came off the sides of the horse more. I think, in fact, they pointed more forward than before.

Lisa, I don't mean to speak for Wendy but she's home/in town for another week or so, and such a genuinely nice person. Perhaps you can go on her website and just write an email to her asking your question regarding bowlegs. It sure can't hurt, and you might just get an answer. (I was totally shocked that I would be able to get a lesson from her! I've trailered my horse there Friday and again today. BTW, she has a lady there who's trailered her horse from Chicago to No. Virginia and will be staying with her for a couple of weeks for lessons.) You never know what can happen until you try!
Member:
Maggienm

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 6:56 pm:

Holly, who decides this stuff? Is this a new FEI position?
Member:
Hwood

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 7:43 pm:

Heck, I don't know . . . I'm no expert on those kinds of things . . . but the lessons I took were from a dressage enthusiast who showed quite seriously.
I just figured it was the difference between what I read in WESTERN HORSEMAN in the 60s and 70s and taking English lessons in the 90s.
Member:
Lisam

Posted on Sunday, Nov 26, 2006 - 8:03 pm:

Dove2, you are right, I should DrOp Wendy a note; I have corresponded with her in the past. In fact I am lucky enough to be a friend-of-a-friend of hers, so she knows my name when I write. That's so terrific that you're able to trailer in to lessons with her! She really worked a revolution in the way I ride . . . or I guess I should say, in the way I used to ride before I had a baby and my horse had an injury and I spent three years plunking around . . .
;-)

The advice Lori quotes from the Secure Seat book is similar to the "Winged Victory" and "three seats at the trot" ideas that Wendy and Sally Swift use. Gosh, I remember a day when I could actually do those!

Thanks again, everyone.

Lisa
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Monday, Nov 27, 2006 - 3:30 pm:

Lisa,

Are you sure it's your legs that are the issue or could it be your seat/pelvis.

I did a seat clinic a couple of weeks ago with Erica Poseley, gotseat.com, and found out that the reason I had trouble with my right leg was that my right seat bone was too far back. Like Melissa, I have to consciously shift weight, in my case to the left, to be "straight".

My new routine it to find my seat bones, make sure I'm straight, then adjust each leg by putting my hand under the back of my thigh, pulling my leg out and rotating it forward, then "fix" my upper body. Ride until I'm out of whack and fix everything again.

Have fun,
Chris
Member:
Lisam

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 4:11 pm:

Chris, thanks for the tip. I guess my answer is, I'm sure that I have problems in both areas! I mean, I am definitely bowlegged. If my feet are together, then my knees are far apart. So when my knees are resting comfortably on the horse, my calves are winging out.

But with that said, I think you are right that having more mobility in my pelvis (the "widen the butt" thing that Melissa mentioned) will let my legs hang wider. Or something like that!
:-)

Lisa
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Wednesday, Nov 29, 2006 - 4:25 pm:

Lisa,

Just for giggles, what happens with your calves when you bend at the knee while mounted? Do they move in or even further out? Maybe a shorter stirrup will help.

I would think that being bowlegged would result in at least the inside of your ankles being on the horse even if your thighs/knees weren't.

Chris
Member:
Lisam

Posted on Saturday, Dec 2, 2006 - 6:59 pm:

Hmm, now that is a very interesting question, Chris! Unfortunately I am away from home right now so I haven't had a chance to put it to the test on horseback, but my best guess is that you may be on to something. If nothing else, a shorter stirrup could bring the lower part of my leg up higher and, perhaps, make contact easier. I'll have to test it out once I'm home!

You're right about my ankles, but in a way that's part of my problem. My horse isn't feeling anything other than "heel" and I have nothing stabilizing me, so my lower legs swing around. When I post, I am pinching with my knees and posting from there. What I'd love to do is be able to develop a real base of support in my lower leg.

Thanks again!

Lisa
Member:
Stevens

Posted on Saturday, Dec 2, 2006 - 7:32 pm:

I'm keen to hear the results of the test when you're back home.

Instead of pinching at the knee when you post, perhaps you can try rolling forward onto your thigh. It works pretty well for me. I know I also have to consciously think about keeping my heel away from my horse to help stabilize my leg.

You know, if someone actually forced us to do all these contortions we'd be crying the blues!! Yes, this is what we do for fun!!

Good Luck1
Chris
Member:
Lisam

Posted on Thursday, Dec 14, 2006 - 12:37 pm:

Hi everyone, I am back home now, have ridden my horse twice since I last posted, and . . . this is a most interesting experiment! Your input has been fantastic.

Here's what I've figured out. First, I tried draping my legs, moving the flesh out of the way and letting my inner thigh fully contact the saddle. What I got was the "clothespin" effect; I felt a lot of pressure on the inside of my knees. They weren't pinching, exactly, but they are the innermost part of my leg (if that makes sense). I think that is partially stiffness (I think that Melissa's "widen the butt" would really help with that) and partly anatomical (if I sit on the floor with my legs out in from of me, you can see that my knee protrudes to the inside of the rest of my leg; I don't think there's any way to change that). As I already knew, the drape effect leaves my lower leg off the horse. What I really don't like is that the only way for me to alleviate that pinched feeling in my knees is to roll my thighs *back* and knees out. That reduces the contact in my thighs. Not sure what to do about that.

So then I tried Chris's idea: trying to keep the draped feeling in my thighs, but shortening my stirrups to lift my leg into contact with my horse's sides. I think this could potentially work, with practice. When I try it now, I feel like I am lifting up too much off the stirrups, and losing the depth in my seat. But I can tell that's partially because I am not letting my knee joints absorb the motion enough; I am stiff there too. So I am thinking that with the "stubby legs" image that Katrina mentioned, and more mobility in the knee, this might work! I am very excited to keep experimenting. The shorter stirrups didn't change my need to roll my thighs back to reduce the pressure on my knees, but they definitely brought my lower leg into contact without strain.

Very interesting stuff, everyone! Thanks again.

Lisa
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